Im Sick of and Im Fed Up of Unions Being Blamed For Auto Bailout Breakdown!!!!

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Good post.

reply to post by stander

Believing in facts doesn't make any sense. Facts are statements with the highest degree of certainty. We don't BELIEVE that facts are the truth; we KNOW that facts are the truth.

There is surely a difference between how much US auto workers make and how much they earn. In this territory, facts are not easy to come by, especially not under current circumstances.

Yes, my numbers posted are FACTS. Your post is from a BLOG, which is ONE PERSON'S OPINION.

In the Decision 2008 forum, blogs were not allowed as references, and for good reason. They are just one person's opinion. You are basing your post on a blog of ONE person. Anyone can create a blog.

MY FIGURES were all from reputable, independent webistes that verify what they post.

Please stick to the FACTS, not some blogger's opinion.

Originally posted by rizla

Socialism anyone? 'Cos Capitalism hasn't worked. It's not even capitalism; it's a system of cartels and monopolies.

Socialism isnt what we need. We need a free market where this is no bailouts or to big to fail. The fact is if all of these big companies had to fear failure and in the failure not only do they lose their jobs they lose their golden parachute then you would see changes. They wouldnt pay themselves money they dont deserve and they would probably pay more for better workers for a better products. In a true free market unions would be able to form anywhere you would be surprised how the government fights unions. The workers have a say when unions are involved. Im pro unions and pro freemarket because in a free market the union works as a good balance. They would actually WORRY about how to manage their companies because they would know there are serious repercussions if they dont. But as you see and now they all see that they are to big to fail. If you thought it was unfair before just watch now. They will piss their companies away like no tomorrow because they know big government is going to be there to save their Arses. Keep in mind it was the government who ALLOWED the monopolies to be formed and not prevented. Big government is not the answer.

[edit on 12-12-2008 by mybigunit]

reply to post by mybigunit


That 48 grand a year is per household, not per person. The 2006 average per person is around 26 thousand or so, give or take. Not saying if the workers are getting paid to much or not, it just seems a little high to the rest of us who went to college and aren't making that much.

You're asking $20 per hour citizens to bail out $73 per hour UAW employees? You can't be serious!

The non-working UAW employees make more than many Americans!

The UAW has sucked the life, the very marrow out of the auto industry, and now they've killed it. With their host dead . . . that's right! It's the turn of the parasite!

Originally posted by dooper
You're asking $20 per hour citizens to bail out $73 per hour UAW employees? You can't be serious!

The non-working UAW employees make more than many Americans!

The UAW has sucked the life, the very marrow out of the auto industry, and now they've killed it. With their host dead . . . that's right! It's the turn of the parasite!

Im not asking citizens to bailout anyone. If you read my entire post you will see that I said that these people should go bankrupt. They have brought us crap for decades and now the chickens have come home to roost. What Im saying is to blame the Union for this mess is just plain wrong.

Yes the UAW is at the crux of the problem.

UAW workers make WAY too much for turning a screwdriver.

Their wages should be reduced to NO More than half of the current figure.

Originally posted by atoms.2008
Yes the UAW is at the crux of the problem.

UAW workers make WAY too much for turning a screwdriver.

Their wages should be reduced to NO More than half of the current figure.

And how much should the execs get paid to go play golf or ride around on planes?

Isn't this great? Class warfare- just what the PTB want to do, and it's succeeding. They throw a hand grenade in the room, and watch the destruction. They are laughing their heads off at us, playing the "worker" versus "management" war. Yup, Class Warfare, the primary weapon of the NWO.

Yep - blame the economic woe of the auto maker industry on the working class - excellent choice.

We won't consider that the big three manufactured gas guzzling vehicles that the economically strapped American, for the last 8 years, had to consider more valuable, paying 400 percent more to operate the gas guzzler or park it and wait for better times.

You know, when gas prices went back to normal...

So what do the big 3 do? build more of these gas guzzlers and bankrupt themselves, instead of paying these supposed "better" analysts and big wig thinkers (that someone justified the amount they make over the 'average' worker, a.k.a. 'anyone can turn a wrench'... wow, ever try to calibrate hardened metal surfaces to a 32nd of a micrometer?) to engineer a vehicle that was economically efficient fuel cost wise, making their product more appealing so that it would sell to an economically strapped American.

here's another thing to consider about Union Wages...

Those wages were earned, not as an incentive or bonus, but over decades of contract negotiations that allowed an increase in the cost of living wage annually to the worker, which appreciated with the decades... i.e.: 1 year, a 50 cent raise, next year a 75 cent raise, etc.

Those workers deserve every cent they get, because it's the American thing to do - to consider a worker and their family's welfare in an inflationary economy that will not take them into consideration otherwise. Those who don't have a negotiated contractual agreement backing their efforts are nothing more than expendable assets, as is being seen widespread across this country in the hundreds of thousands of jobless folks who thought their decades of non contractually negotiated service would ensure them a bright future.

In the end, they lose, their retirement disappears, and all of that at a far less average wage than a contractually backed worker in the same trade or field. That is a Union, and that is what Unions provide.

I belong to a union, the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, and I make $39.21 per hour. When I first started in this trade, the wage was around $27.15 per hour, which was where the negotiated contractual rate was at at that time. I've realized an appreciation of my tenure in service comparable to the cost of living this economy exists at, and today can feed my family, own a home, have two vehicles, and afford the gas they consume. I also pay around ten grand in taxes annually on top of that.

10 thousand dollars a year in my tax money, over 100 grand in the last ten years, is supporting all of this F*¿ºing bailout crap.

Yep, that's alot of money for one person to watch handed out to the rich and well to do, and I'm Above Top Secret about how I feel about it.

So, WORKING folks - who support this nation - shouldn't be penalized for the bad economic decisions the folks at the top make. It's the folks at the top who need to open their revenue resource warchest up and drive their own efforts home. The worker is there to help them make that happen.

For those who feel I make an exhorborant amount of money, consider this. My job is more of a threat to my life than that of a Police Officer's - that's a known FACT. Two years ago I almost lost my life to a fault current overload that hospitalized me for four months, and scarred 30 percent of my body from the flash burns. Police Officers make $125,000.00 a year, and so do I.

I think I make at least what I'm worth, and I can guarantee you that the auto workers do too.

Star and Flag for you mybigunit!

[edit on 12-12-2008 by DarkspARCS]

Well I find it funny. The Japanese plants here in the US are doing well enough, and the only real difference is the UAW for the US car manufacturers.

Gee, does GM or Ford not have any fuel efficient cars? Nothing? Do you think the $1500 in union-negotiated benefits built into each American car before they even buy the first tire could have been better spent on improving quality? Or durability? Or fuel efficiency? Or improved manufacturing?

If I or you, or anyone else was already $1500 in the hole on each unit you produce, I guarantee you'll not make up the difference in volume. You'd be out of business in no time.

Yeah. GM and Ford made some bad decisions. Yeah. The environmentalists push our pansy Congress to disallow drilling offshore. Yeah. The Japanese cars give more quality, fuel efficiency, higher resale value, durability, and benefit from high quality manufacturing processes.

So what's the reason to throw good money after bad?

I have to disagree with You 100%. A business is in business to make money plane and simple. GM is saying it needs to get rid of benefits then I am sure they are right. Look at car prices and then look at what the prices could be without benefits. I paid an extra 1500 dollars so some man working for a union could get viagra at my expense. Thanks UAW not only do I have to buy my own viagra if I even need it but I have to buy Yours too. You will not get many allies with the average rank and file american. Hell I don't get benefits like that and most of us never do and I make 2.5X more money than that with 11 dollars less hourly wage so go figure. The auto unions are spoiled and I think they made a big mistake because they turned down less money and soon the will have no jobs.

reply to post by dooper


I didnt say to bail them out. I specifically said let them fail. Alls Im saying is dont blame this on the union. Also so now your going to say that the off shore is all the environmentalists fault huh? First off what does offshore do for us? Nothing because all the oil goes to the world market. The only way it benefits us is if the government forces the oil companies to earmark it directly to America but that is what Chavez does we wouldnt want to do that would we? Look no further than a lot of the big businessmen who have ocean front properties who dont want to look at wind mills or oil rigs. That is the reason you dont see them not because of a few schmuck environmentalists. If government wants it done they get it done and they dont care what anyone says. Remember the banking bailout?

reply to post by mybigunit

I'll tell you what offshore drilling does. If you and a handful of friends are producing highly demanded widgets, you can cooperate and to a degree, you can affect the price of widgets.

Now comes another guy who wants in on producing widgets. I guarantee you, for every widget he produces, your unit price must go down, as you aren't selling as many widgets, and you no longer control all the market at the same level as you did before.

In a separate concept, if all offshore drilling of American oil were only for sale to American oil refineries, I guarantee you we'd see a world drop in prices.

reply to post by 44soulslayer


just so you know. i am a menial factory worker. and i have only made 30k this year. union workers and RETIRES only make up 10% of the cost to run one of the big 3. 10%. the most money spent for running a big 3 company is spent on suppliers. which are now outsourced.

so now lets see. at my plant in the last 6 years. we have givin up our anual pay raises. our COLA(cost of living allowance) a week of paid vacation. 2 personal/sick days. profit sharing has went from 7k a year 9 years ago. to around 300 a year. our co-pays on our health insurace has went from 0 4 years ago to 25 a visit. our co-pay on perscriptions has went from 0 4 years ago to between 5-15 a prescription.

now i will agree with you that "any" man can weild a wrench, but can that man do so within the alotted time for each vehicle? that is around 48 seconds.now understand that as long as there is no major break downs on the "line" a production plant can froduce 500 to 600 vehicles a shift.now imagine carrying a 30 pound heater 500-600 times a day, having to scan the heater and the truck ticket before you get it. putting that heater into the truck, screwing down the nuts and screw. installing the underhoodlight. and installing the rear air vent all within the 48 seconds alotted time. this is one of the easier jobs at my plant.now all i am saying is that not EVERY man can do every job in a plant. it does required some cordination and physical fitness, believe it or not, it does take some intelligence to look at a job and work out the easiest and fasted way to do the job correctly and efficently, to fix what the "engineers" think looks good on paper.

now, i am tired of everyone jumping on the band wagon and blaming the unions for the bad business of the higher echelons.i am tired of being blamed for our economy. where do you think "all this money" a union member makes goes to? OUR economy!they need to stop trying to fix the affect, and fix the cause. stop making money out of thin air, bringing down the value of the american dollar.stop passing up alternative fuels because they will not make the oil companies any money.

stop believeing what they tell you, and look for yourself!!!

i have just seen on the news that the president of the UAW has a memo that states the republicans are trying to use this to force out unionized labor, and it seems to be working. everyone outside of the unions are blaming the unions workers.


10% fix the cause!!

note: this whole post is NOT all a reply. most are just rambelings.

edited to add: i forgot to add that our janitorial was outsourced 2 years ago, and is no longer a union job.i worked HARD for 10 years on the line waiting to have enough seniority to get a janitorial position(cushy job)
materials is soon to be outsourced, our paint shop is also soon to be outsourced.this is at my plant again i add.

also in negotiations of our last contract, they instated a 2 tier wage system. the tougher jobs are first tier and the easier jobs are second tier. second tier jobs can only make upto 17 dollars an hour. THRE WILL BE NO MORE NEW HIRES AT 30 DOLLARS AN HOUR. they will not be able to make over the second tier wage, unless a first tier wage job opens up and they have the seniority to win that job.all of materials is going to be second tier. now lets think about this. within the next 2 contracts. the second tier people will out weigh the 1st tier people. and then they will offer to average the wages of every employee to lets say, 24 dollars an hour. now that there are more $17/hour workers, this will pass.do not forget that our wages are frozen along with our COLA so in 3-6 years our pay will be the same. and not reflect inflation.
[edit on 12/12/2008 by keeff]
edited to add: SORRY HAVE MORE TO ADD!!

people complain about having to pay taxes so that the 400,000 union workers can have a job still. what about the taxes WE ( i will also be paying for this "bail-out") will be paying for the 300 bankers,..no lets give them the benifit of the doubt,.3000 bankers and "BIG COMPANIES" that just recieved 700 BILLION dollars in bail-out money. created out of thin air.

and yes the union workers pay taxes also.
[edit on 12/12/2008 by keeff]

[edit on 12/12/2008 by keeff]

[edit on 12/12/2008 by keeff]

Let's be clear on what a union is. Unions are businesses that make profit by increasing the size of its membership. Unions have a very powerful voice in government (particularly with Democrats in the states, liberals and NDP in Canada). They spend a huge amount of money to sway votes in their favor. They also make huge contributions come election time to the people that sing their song.

Like I said the income for a union comes from members of that union. So for their business to survive they have to make promises and sell a product that people are willing to buy. How do they do this? They give the promise of higher wages, job security, benefits, etc. Does any of these things come out of the unions pocket? No, so why should they care where the money comes from as long as they as a union can survive. Afterall, business has only two objectives; profit and self preservation.

So when a union is threatened with losing its profits (ie members) because their jobs become obsolete or the company is trying to cut wages, benefits, etc, they will do whatever it takes to keep their profits coming in. They have a very powerful tool, the ability to shutdown production.

What the end result is that businesses cannot function properly because their hands are tied from doing things like replacing employees with machines that can do the job far more efficiently and cheaply. They also force the price of a product upwards as they must pay these benefits and bloated wages. If the company wants to keep the price of their product down, they have to use cheaper materials. Now the product suffers, the company suffers because they are no longer competitive with companies that are free to fire obsolete jobs, to use better materials, to use the lastest state of the art technology, all in the name of job security.

Tell me, if I start a business, should I not get to decide what a worker makes? Should I not be allowed to hire or fire whom I please without having to deal with a third party bureaucracy? Unions are the truly greedy and their shortsightedness has brought down many industries because of their so called "good intentions".

But like they say good intentions pave the road to hell.

Originally posted by dooper
Well I find it funny. The Japanese plants here in the US are doing well enough, and the only real difference is the UAW for the US car manufacturers....

UAW workers work in U.S. positioned Japanese auto manufacturing plants as well.... What's your point?

Why isn't Honda, Kentucky or Toyota, Ohio being included in this bailout, while GM has already stated it will send 1 Billion in bailout money to support it's assets in BRAZIL?...

Originally posted by dooper
Do you think the $1500 in union-negotiated benefits built into each American car before they even buy the first tire could have been better spent on improving quality? Or durability? Or fuel efficiency? Or improved manufacturing?

If I or you, or anyone else was already $1500 in the hole on each unit you produce, I guarantee you'll not make up the difference in volume. You'd be out of business in no time.

Just because union benefits are built into the cost of each car, does that mean that those workers that built that car for you don't deserve to have their Intellectual Property rights (THAT'S RIGHT... alot of the so called 'improvements' built into these cars have come from the UAW workers themselves, not some upscale, paid engineer) and the amount of SKILL and effort they took to make it for you compensated justly by you?

That's right, I forgot, you must want your assets for free, right? People should just work their asses off and hand over the goods - o.k....

Maybe you like your life that way, but the consensus of most honest folks out there would agree that your concept is imbalanced. *FAIL*

Traditionally, if something is made for trade, to possess it, it must be paid for by the one wishing to possess it. Hard work = Earned Income.

Originally posted by jkm1864
I paid an extra 1500 dollars so some man working for a union could get viagra at my expense. Thanks UAW not only do I have to buy my own viagra if I even need it but I have to buy Yours too.

What in God's Green Earth does this have anything to do with?

[edit on 12-12-2008 by DarkspARCS]

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by mybigunit

 

I'll tell you what offshore drilling does. If you and a handful of friends are producing highly demanded widgets, you can cooperate and to a degree, you can affect the price of widgets.

Now comes another guy who wants in on producing widgets. I guarantee you, for every widget he produces, your unit price must go down, as you aren't selling as many widgets, and you no longer control all the market at the same level as you did before.

In a separate concept, if all offshore drilling of American oil were only for sale to American oil refineries, I guarantee you we'd see a world drop in prices.

LOL thats assuming you feel supply and demand still affects the price of oil. I have news for you...It doesnt. Bankers affect the price. You want proof? Look no further than gold. Buying physical gold is tough but yet the price goes down. Demand for oil hasnt changed but yet its back to $45 a barrel. Nice storyline with the widgets but understanding how the world market works tells me that price manipulation is what controls and the only thing that drilling off shore does for us is it makes it so we buy less Arabian oil but unless we earmark it to us then we will still end up putting all that money in their pocket and not ours.

Originally posted by mybigunit
Ok Im SICK AND TIRED of everyone blaming the Unions for the downfall of the Auto companies and the bailouts. Sick of it. First off are we in America NOT allowed to have a middle class? Do have have to pay our people like they do in China? Are we supposed to just have the wealthy at the top and then the servants that serve them in the bottom.

Soooo, if Unions ARENT responsible, then why don't Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, BMW and other foreign auto makers have to be bailed out? Oooohh, because they don't have to answer to Unions... The unions have really messed things up for the american auto companies.

Originally posted by mybigunit
I mean they make $28 bucks an hour which is $1000 bucks a week. People Im sorry but that is NOT a lot of money considering what things cost anymore.

That seems more than fair for an assembly line worker, a job with no requirement for a college degree.

Ya want to make more money, stop slaving for another (it's not a "right" that someone else furnish you with a job paying as much as you see fit) and go work for yourself. Start your own business then and go pay your employees what they demand if your so desire and can. More power to ya.

And those that are blaming the government for the mess the auto industry is in because the senate killed the bailout KNOCK IT OFF. Our tax money was never meant to be for corporate welfare nor for loans. Let the Big Three go to the bank with their viable business proposal. Why not blame the consumers instead for not wanting to buy overpriced big gas sucking vehicles. And yeah, blame the unions and their gangsta thugs for not wanting to contribute to their own survival bailout by digging into their own pockets. I'm glad they are going down. I'm never gonna buy another made in America by union labor vehicle ever again. Why? Because them monkeys thought they were entitled to dig in my pockets for corporate welfare to keep their union thug game afloat.