“I dread looking at Wall Street tomorrow. It’s not going to be a pleasant sight.”

This is making me so mad. The government buys up all these bad companies. Also businesses that need help go ask for money and they get it but when it comes to auto companies the gov says, "lets see the paper work first." I think this is bull. Both my parents work for auto companies, my mom works for ford and my dad is a manager at a stamping plant for gm and chrysler. My mom is doing fine but my dad is getting laid off for 6 weeks because of all this. If the auto companies dont get help from the governmant then i lose all hope for this country.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus

Yes, it's below 90 for the first time in quite awhile.

[edit on 11-12-2008 by ProfEmeritus]

I'm pretty sure that the yen has never been this strong. Not in my lifetime, anyway.

Time to do a bit of online shopping, I think...

Originally posted by EpicJ19
This is making me so mad. The government buys up all these bad companies. Also businesses that need help go ask for money and they get it but when it comes to auto companies the gov says, "lets see the paper work first." I think this is bull. Both my parents work for auto companies, my mom works for ford and my dad is a manager at a stamping plant for gm and chrysler. My mom is doing fine but my dad is getting laid off for 6 weeks because of all this. If the auto companies dont get help from the governmant then i lose all hope for this country.

I'm incredibly sorry to hear about your family's difficulties. I've been laid off once this year and have recently had my full time job go part time, so I feel your pain.

Understand, though, that if the gov't had loaned the $15B to GM & Chrysler
(Ford had already declined to be included in this)
that money would have only stretched the companies' existence until March at the latest. They need more like $150B just to start, a COMPLETE restructuring in their operations, and a separation from the UAW to have even the slimmest chance of survival. They'd need more money down the line. Jobs are gone anyways, because these companies are operating on the presumption of shipping 17-18M units a year when there is demand for MAYBE 10M tops.

There is no easy or good solution to this. No matter what happens, GM and Chrysler (and Ford to a slightly lesser degree) are in dire straits. They most likely will not survive no matter what.

[edit on 12/11/2008 by anachryon]

reply to post by vox2442

'm pretty sure that the yen has never been this strong. Not in my lifetime, anyway.

Maybe you can lend us some Yen?

The government should just nationalize GM and ford, close them down and pay UAW workers to build roads, bridges and other infrastructure to support the auto industry.

[edit on 11-12-2008 by In nothing we trust]

What they could do is pull a CONRAIL like they did back in the 70's and call it CONCAR

The federal government, recognizing the national economic importance of the six railroads, responded by creating Conrail and appropriating the funds needed to rebuild tracks, locomotives and freight cars. While Conrail succeeded in rebuilding the railroad, the problem of severe economic regulation remained. With the passage of the Staggers Act in 1980, many of these constraints were loosened, giving railroads more freedom to compete with trucks. Later, other legislation transferred the burden of operating money-losing commuter rail service from Conrail to state agencies. In the 1970s, Congress created Amtrak to take over intercity passenger service from the nation's freight railroads.

By 1981 Conrail began its financial turnaround. After June 1981, Conrail would no longer require federal investment, and finished the year with the first profit in its history.

reply to post by In nothing we trust

The government should just nationalize GM and ford, close them down and pay UAW workers to build roads, bridges and other infrastructure to support the auto industry.

You really think that union members that have been used to showing up for work to watch some machine make automobiles are going to stoop to actually do real work?

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
You really think that union members that have been used to showing up for work to watch some machine make automobiles are going to stoop to actually do real work?

Of course not. But the government could put them on the governments payroll so they could at least collect a paycheck.

Remember millions of American consumers now require free government money even if they are unproductive.

[edit on 11-12-2008 by In nothing we trust]

Sorry, but my paycheck can't support these bailouts.

No Bailout, No B*llSh*t. You broke it, you bought it. Wall Street Bailout protest:






[edit on 12-12-2008 by Dbriefed]

[edit on 12-12-2008 by Dbriefed]

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Dow 8,254.00 -316.00 -3.69

DOW Futures.

Vote fails.

Stocks fall.

People go "ZOMG YOU SHOULD HAVE PASSED IT!!"

House makes a new bill twice as large and packed with pork, passes, people cheer, stocks rise.

Reactionary Economics.

a 32 degree Master Mason just said "ZOMG"

classic.


-

This entire country has been living way beyond their means, living off credit. This is going to be one painful adjustment for a lot of folks. Really painful.

I own a small business and two years ago told my employees to get rid of the credit cards, put some money away, and put off buying a lot of the customary things they like to spend on. We did real well for a while and I advised them that where possible, they pay off their homes, and put off the vacations, new trucks, and big ticket items.

Some did. Some didn't. Those who did are going to be alright, as they don't owe anyone - anything! It's a really comforting feeling to have no debt. And I never will again. If I can't pay for it, I don't need it.

I now understand the older generation who went through the Great Depression in the '30's and tended to squeeze every dollar for a rainy day.

Well, it's raining again.

This will throw millions of people out of work, it will have a domino effect. " Say hello to the next great depression".

Now for the first time in the past few months I gotta go with the bloodbath scenario on this.

It's not gonna be pretty.

I'm sorry But no bailout!


Bailout of the big 3
UAW

Chapter 11

Restructure
Build better looking, More reliable, Fuel efficient vehicles

I'm sad to see that no one sees the hypocrisy in all of this.

Not too long ago, trillions of tax dollars were used to bail out big banks that deserved to go under and the people never okayed that. But when an automotive industry that has been with America and supplied almost half a million jobs plus benefits needs help, the government says no.

I just don't get it.

Aah, GM and Chrysler will work out a special plan with their creditors, restructure hard and will operate happily ever after. Obama will help them. Bad news for the Japanese competitors:

TOYOTA MOTOR -10.10%
HONDA MOTOR CO -12.48%




The US traders got a whiff of the going ons in the Senate after the lunch, paid respect to their comrades in Detroit and will go after their own business tomorrow.



[edit on 12/12/2008 by stander]

Facts that must not be ignored...

1. If the money ends up coming out of TARP, then the senators who voted "nay" basically get what they were pushing for from the beginning. Recall that originally the Congress was pushing Paulson to use the money they already gave him to "rescue" the auto makers. He acted like a petulant little bastard of a child, stamped his feet, put on a pout, and refused. If for no other reason than the fact that it will make his sphincter tighten uncomfortably and give him a bad case of acid reflux, them getting some of his little TARP funds wouldn't be that bad of a compromise all things considered.

2. The time has come for America to start directing some blame and venom towards some of the biggest crooks and charlitans not already in elected positions in Washington DC. I'm of course referring to union chiefs. Had that damned UAW union not refused to budge from their ivory tower of greed, the Senate probably would have approved the $14 Bil. Instead the unions, as always, take a stance that their members should never have to shoulder even an iota of greif in times of great economic distress. I admit that I am not that well versed in Michigan's union worker laws, as I have lived my entire life in right to work & employment at will states where unions have no teeth (praise Jesus!). However, I would actually respect the Big 3 if they came out tomorrow in unison, went to Washington, and said "OK, as of 8 AM next monday, Ford, GM, and Chrysler will no longer employ unionized workers. They have sabotaged our companies and follow a leadership group of traitors. We would like Congress to reconsider the loans in exchange for greater oversight and an open market of employment in the auto industry, in which no unions will strongarm us again."

3. I think that the federal government is overstating the impact of one or more of these companies going bankrupt just a tad bit. I find it all too convenient that the "representatives" crying "think of the jobs" the loudest are also the same ones who so loudly supported NAFTA while thousands (if not millions) of jobs went across this nation's border, many in the auto manufacturing sector. Interesting that those jobs lost weren't as important at the time, isn't it. Hell, at this point maybe the Big 3 should be heading down to Mexico City hat in hand to ask the Mexican government for a bailout seeing as how they employ so many of their people down there.

reply to post by burdman30ott6


I agree with you on your assesment of the people crying about jobs meanwhile supporting NAFTA which is sending millions of jobs out of America. I do disagree with you on your assessment of the union. I agree they get paid probably to much for what they do but here is the thing...so what. Are we not allowed to have a middle class and lets face it you think $30.00 an hour is making a ton of money your wrong considering the costs of everything right now. GM is not failing because of high pay to the unions. They are failing because they have been behind the curve for the past 30 years in both technology and in reliability. I remember when I bought an Acura in 2001 it had a navigation in it meanwhile no American cars that I could find even had navis in fact not till 2003 or so did they. Things like advanced traction control, all wheel drive, and other safety items that were standard on other vehicles were big upgrades for American even if they offered such things at all. GM failed because they ran on just their name for a few decades. They lost site. They though people would still buy their crap because of the whole Japanese and German factor. Well I got news for you GM is wide awake now. Only now would I consider buying a GM.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Dow 8,254.00 -316.00 -3.69

DOW Futures.

Vote fails.

Stocks fall.

People go "ZOMG YOU SHOULD HAVE PASSED IT!!"

House makes a new bill twice as large and packed with pork, passes, people cheer, stocks rise.

Reactionary Economics.

ahahaha yup that pretty well sums that up amigo. Star for you I couldnt of said it much better. Political posturing thats all.

reply to post by burdman30ott6

I think the automakers will join forces and create a new company. They don't have to compete with each other when the Japanese have been taking care of that very well.

I'm not familiar with what the unions are entitled to when a company files for a bankruptcy, but I think it's not much. The union leaders would be more than happy to renegotiate all the contracts after the very lean times.