Originally posted by saint4God
Hi Hunka, I'd intentionally not engaged in a discussion with you previously, merely pointing out that your opinion is just as valid as mine. I understand you feel a need to mock others in their beliefs, state your opinions as if they were facts, and to support something you know is false, however on ATS we're all here to Deny Ignorance so my responsibility is adherence and promotion towards the truth. This is what I plan on supporting as taking part of the principle. It does not surprise me that parents are supporters of lies (as I said before, I worked in business for many years) but as for me and my house, we'll not propagate them.

[edit on 16-12-2008 by saint4God]

You are the one mocking me!

I'm sitting here saying that the myth of Santa is equivalent to the myth of Jesus, and you want to act like the myth of Jesus is Greater than the myth of Santa.

That to me is mocking.

I just don't understand how you can sit there with a straight face and call Jesus TRUTH and Santa BUNK.

And worse off you act like the stories Parents tell children about Santa is somehow unethical. While, telling them about Jesus is just showing them truth.

And then... in this last post of yours you attempt to act like you are taking the high ground. You really should read the thread in my signature.


The thing you fail to realize is that the human mind apprehends through narrative. It's just how it works. Which is why Children believe in Santa and Adults believe in whatever religious figure they were indoctrinated into.

The real truth is that there is nothign wrong with using myths to understand, or even believing in those myths. What drives me nuts is someone who believes their myth is superior.

[edit on 16-12-2008 by HunkaHunka]

Originally posted by Lawlord
I do think the teacher should not have told the children solely because it caused them mental distress.

Was the teacher saving them from distress down the road? Maybe, but short term at least it caused children agony.

That was not the right approach.

Parents should not have fostered lies to their children in the first place. But the teacher should not have caused mental distress for children. Both the parents and the teacher are to be blamed.

The teacher casued mental distress?!?!?!? you're kidding me right?! You are going to wash the hands of the very parents who STARTED the whole thing? The parents started the lie... You blame the teacher for revieling it as such!?

oh my is santa not real then
I think it is kinda sad when the magic is broken for the kiddies Its nice to be kept going as long as possible,so guess I would also be annoyed if this had happened to me,maybe not a teachers place to spoil the illusion...

Originally posted by special
oh my is santa not real then
I think it is kinda sad when the magic is broken for the kiddies Its nice to be kept going as long as possible,so guess I would also be annoyed if this had happened to me,maybe not a teachers place to spoil the illusion...

So you'd rather the teacheer lie to cover the parent's lie? What then about the children in the class who don't have Christmas... Would you rather the teacher hurt their feelings?

Originally posted by kerrichin
because the parent doent just blurt it out.

the fact was what ever the children where being rowdy about the teacher couldnt control them, to me that makes them a bad teacher seeing as that is part of their job really

I'm not sure if you've ever had a substitute teacher, but I can say from my personal experiences of having many, they're not treated with respect in the public schools I went to. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but don't see any stretch of the imagination to say the children were getting rowdy because the person in charge was not their daily overseer. Again, we're being very subjective with 'blurt', the teacher could have said it out of a mean-spirited fit of anger, but the article does not say this nor gives a full story. There's no interview with the teacher, no following up to get the accounts from different students as to what happened. The school administration made its decision to fire the truth telling teacher in support of the lying parents. They did so for the same reason the teacher made her statement, to quell the riot.

[edit on 16-12-2008 by saint4God]

Well, in general I would agree that their is nothing wrong with letting children believe in something magical. I also feel that this is a decision for each particular family.

Personally though I believe that "magic" and all the wonderful ideas discussed so far can be created without deceit.

In my situation my first child has always been aware of who "Santa" etc. really was, my second child was "duped" by my parents and siblings and unfortunately I allowed this and participated.

My oldest has always had a love of Christmas, "pretends" Santa is real and all that even now at 15. My oldest has the "magic" and "sparkle" of Christmas in her heart without ever having to be lied to in the process.

My youngest found out a few years or so ago who Santa (the tooth fairy, the easter bunny etc) really is and had a little emotional breakdown in regards to the whole situation.

His heartbreak of learning the truth made ME cry and I felt horrible for deceiving him.

He asked many questions that day, as he is very smart, he deduced from learning that Santa is not real that neither was the tooth fairy etc.

ahh, the joys of two children who are several years apart, and the differences in how we raise them.

My experience has been that we were far kinder to our oldest child, never even starting the whole Santa/tooth fairy etc as being real.

Our oldest never had to have that moment of "they lied to me" etc. That feeling of betrayal that those most trusted by little ones, have been misleading them.

Both my children retain the "magic" of Christmas, they still have that "twinkle" and "magic" in their eyes laughing and playing and getting ready for Christmas.

At 15 and 11 they still run around excited, leaving milk (two glasses) and cookies for "Santa" while giggling that mom and dad had better share with each other. On Christmas morning they still (we will see this year), run down the stairs (yes we have stairs) as dawn breaks (gosh some years before its even light) in excitement and joy over what Christmas day will bring.

What I really love seeing these days (now that both my children know the truth), is the joy, magic and sparkle I see in them that has to do with us, as a family, having a special day together.

I love seeing my youngest pretending to be santa as he passes over a "special" gift to mom, dad or sister. I enjoy each and every moment that we get to take our turns being santa, and sharing basically a beautiful day.

I relish seeing the seriousness in their faces as they donate their time, energy and sometimes even a bit of their saved Christmas money to a good cause. I know that when my children choose on their own to donate any of the above, that they know for sure what Christmas is really supposed to be about, caring and sharing and love.

And still, as my children hand me a gift on Christmas morning that they took time to create for me, I hold that gift to my heart far more than any bought gift. LOL at 40, I get all gooey inside, wondering what they have created for me this year, and I again follow them around asking "What did you guys do"? "Can I have a peek? A clue? Come on PLEASE? I will act surprised Christmas morning. I can't wait!!" While they laugh "at me" and tell me NO I have to wait just like they do.

I guess for me, the magic and sparkle and all the excitement of the holidays, is created in our interactions with each other. Not by Santa and reindeer, or shopping and buying gifts.

And further more. we have pretend play (more so when they were younger), and they understand the difference between the real world, and imagination. We love imagination, it's the best "invention" ever, but imagination does not require me to be deceitful to my children for it to be exciting and fun and special.

Why is it that when a teacher says Santa does not exist you are ok with it, but if I say God does not exist you take offense?

Well, Santa is not God. There is no Santa religion. There is no Santa Bible. You can't compare Santa and God. There is no documentation (real or otherwise) of Santa before a certain year. Regardless of whether or not you think God created the universe, there is still at least written word about it.

Originally posted by FiatLux
We each judge ourselves saint4God, it`s not up to you or anyone one else to do it for us. Not one of us has the right to judge anyone else, only ourselves. I don`t think anyone who wants to tell the story of Santa is going to he-- for it because a few others think they should.

I've not placed judgement upon anyone and I'm sorry if you feel that I have. I've not said/implied that anyone who tells the story of Santa is going to Hell (for all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God, through Christ we are save hence the celebration of Christmas). In fact, I thought I made quite clear that the consequences of lying to one's own children has serious consequences here and now on earth. I'm not sure how this has turned into a religious affront, as this topic has to do with discussing whether or not a teacher should have told the children the truth. You do not have to be a Christian to say the parents should not have lied to their children. Many Christians perpetuate the santa myth, though I see a contradiction in that belief. If we could remain within the topic, it may add some clarity for the situation to those (including myself) who do not see a connection between the mythological flying reindeer pilot and the Christian faith.

[edit on 16-12-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Totakeke

Why is it that when a teacher says Santa does not exist you are ok with it, but if I say God does not exist you take offense?

Well, Santa is not God. There is no Santa religion. There is no Santa Bible. You can't compare Santa and God. There is no documentation (real or otherwise) of Santa before a certain year. Regardless of whether or not you think God created the universe, there is still at least written word about it.

Oh boy.... I know I'm going to get slaughtered for this one however, I am not here to insult God... But, there's more concrete proof of Santa than there is for God. The history of Santa is a timeline you can follow... God is belief.

This situation is a reflection of our Society, and how we teach our children that there is a grey area when it comes to lies therefore a grey area in potenetially all our actions.

A lie is a lie irregardless of it's simplicity!

What are we doing when we lie to our children? Whats the purpose? Are we trying to relive the innocence WE once had through are children by extending it in any fashion we can; Santa Claus, Easter bunny...even Halloween: all pagansistic ritulas that we consider to be the norm of Christianity, Halloween the exception, which is consider an innnocent holiday.

The parent's should be angry with themselves for being naive of what these lie's cost our Society, and how it is being glamourized by Corporate America.

I say Shame on you Parent's, and i applaud the teacher.

Oh boy.... I know I'm going to get slaughtered for this one however, I am not here to insult God... But, there's more concrete proof of Santa than there is for God. The history of Santa is a timeline you can follow... God is belief.

Lol I'm not going to slaughter you (I can't vouch for anyone else, however).

I would, however, like to disagree. While there is concrete proof of Santa, there is no proof (and never will be) of a magical man dressed in a red suit that gets pulled by reindeer and delivers presents to children around the world all while never being seen and doing this in a matter of hours.

Human Santa existed and did a wonderful thing. Commercial Santa doesn't exist.