Teacher tells 7 year-olds Santa's Fake.

Thanks for you takes on it FiatLux, glad you were able to give a little something back to the community and explained the history of the real Saint Nicholas to your children.

Originally posted by stumason
If their teacher told them Santa was a fake, I'd be effing livid.

Then it isn't the teacher nor children that have the problem.

Originally posted by stumason
...they have just ripped away another layer of Childhood innocence and completely ruined the magic at Christmas.

Childhood innocence must be a synonym for naive deception. There is indeed a very special part of Christ-mas worth exploring...and it has nothing to do with a man in a red suit nor what he has in his bag.



[edit on 16-12-2008 by saint4God]

Santa will get lost in the smog!

Originally posted by saint4God
Then it isn't the teacher nor children that have the problem.

Oh, I disagree. The teacher would have a very immediate and pressing problem, me. And my kids would be heart-broken, so I beg to differ.

Originally posted by saint4God
Childhood innocence must be a synonym for naive deception. There is indeed a very special part of Christ-mas worth exploring...and it has nothing to do with a man in a red suit nor what he has in his bag.

Bluuurgh. Leave your god-bothering to someone who gives a toss, not interested. Never been christened, baptised or otherwise tricked into giving up my soul and never will. "God" or "jesus" (who is it you worship, by the way?) can kiss my hairy white arse.

Jesus was most likely born in Spring if he ever existed at all, the whole christmas festival is just a Roman festival with a name change. Same with Easter. Christianity is a huge fake and the Church is a bunch of lying bastards.

I like Christmas for the happy times, the food, the family. If someone else took it upon themselves to ruin something my Kids have been looking forward to for ages, I'd make sure they too had something to moan about at Christmas.

On December 23, 1951, Santa (Father Christmas) was “executed” in front of some 250 children. Actually an effigy of him was torched.

This took place in Dijon France. What was his crime?
The newspaper France-Soir reported that this execution was

“decided upon with the agreement of the clergy, who had condemned Father Christmas as a usurper and heretic” and had accused him of “paganizing Christmas.”

This was “a symbolic gesture,” a communiqué declared. “Falsehood cannot awaken the religious feelings of children and is in no way a method of education.”

Many of the clergymen agreed that the multitude of customs surrounding Santa (Father Christmas) was turning people away from Christ.

In fact in the March 1952 issue of Les Temps Modernes (Modern Times), ethnologist Claude Lévi-Strauss called belief in Father Christmas
"One of the most active hotbeds of paganism among modern man”
and stated that the church was justified in denouncing this belief.

Lévi-Strauss also noted that the origins of Father Christmas can be traced back to the king of the Saturnalia. The Saturnalia festival was celebrated in ancient Rome from December 17 to 24. During that week, buildings were decorated with greenery and gifts were exchanged. Like Christmas, the Saturnalia was characterized by merrymaking.


It is interesting that today it appears that tradition & commercialism have overcome any scruples people have about paganism.

Originally posted by Sparky63
On December 23, 1951, Santa (Father Christmas) was “executed” in front of some 250 children. Actually an effigy of him was torched.

This was a foolish thing to do and anti-Biblical. Christians are not 'above' anyone else in doing foolish things, though with that Book in their hands they should know better. Ignorance, therefore, could not be their claim.

[edit on 16-12-2008 by saint4God]

How stupid are these parent AND kids going to feel when they all grow up and the kids finally stop believing in Santa?
But I don't think that they'll look back and actually stop to think " Hey I ridiculed someone and got them disciplined when in actual fact they were telling me the truth after all".

All they'll think of is the 15 seconds of publicity they got at someones expense and the story in the papers.

reply to post by DataWraith


"How stupid are these parent AND kids going to feel when they all grow up and the kids finally stop believing in Santa?"

They shouldn`t feel stupid at all. Why, did you?


"But I don't think that they'll look back and actually stop to think " Hey I ridiculed someone and got them disciplined when in actual fact they were telling me the truth after all"."

Yes, your right, they won`t look back, and I don`t blame them if they did. It was their right to think about, and have the Santa story in their lives this time of the year. Just like it`s your right not to. Just because their belief system is different then yours, doesn`t make them bad people. Why be so judgemental of others?

"All they'll think of is the 15 seconds of publicity they got at someones expense and the story in the papers."

They may, or may not, life will go on like always.




[edit on 16-12-2008 by FiatLux]

Originally posted by Sparky63
On December 23, 1951, Santa (Father Christmas) was “executed” in front of some 250 children. Actually an effigy of him was torched.

This took place in Dijon France. What was his crime?
The newspaper France-Soir reported that this execution was

“decided upon with the agreement of the clergy, who had condemned Father Christmas as a usurper and heretic” and had accused him of “paganizing Christmas.”

This was “a symbolic gesture,” a communiqué declared. “Falsehood cannot awaken the religious feelings of children and is in no way a method of education.”

Many of the clergymen agreed that the multitude of customs surrounding Santa (Father Christmas) was turning people away from Christ.

In fact in the March 1952 issue of Les Temps Modernes (Modern Times), ethnologist Claude Lévi-Strauss called belief in Father Christmas
"One of the most active hotbeds of paganism among modern man”
and stated that the church was justified in denouncing this belief.

Lévi-Strauss also noted that the origins of Father Christmas can be traced back to the king of the Saturnalia. The Saturnalia festival was celebrated in ancient Rome from December 17 to 24. During that week, buildings were decorated with greenery and gifts were exchanged. Like Christmas, the Saturnalia was characterized by merrymaking.


It is interesting that today it appears that tradition & commercialism have overcome any scruples people have about paganism.

WOW! That's cold even for me.... Thank you for that post... Now what? We are going to start putting all Saints on trial (they already have put some on trial to include one that they stated was actually a devil and cast the Saint out of Sainthood)? This is amazing and weird all at the same time!

I hope not, I don't have time for a trial.

reply to post by Totakeke



There's more evidence for the existence of santa than there is a god. At least Santa has a face, has a supposed location, we know his role and what he does. He does tangible acts. What do you have for god?

I will let my children enjoy christmas without telling them the lie of santa. I am 18 and do think believing in Santa and getting presents for nothing does nothing positive for children other than temporarily making them and you happier.

I look forward to birthday, easter, christmas. Why? Because I get stuff for nothing. This is how I feel. I don't want to give people anything. I get things for free from my parents. I won't be teaching my kids this.

And I won't be encouraging fantasy as fact. You can let your kid believe in fairy tales etc, but if they come to you and ask you for the truth, you better give it. Sponsoring lies in your children, when you are the one they should be seeking for ultimate advice and truth is wrong to me.

Just my opinion. For my kids it will be no Santa, still christmas and presents but with my own moral message. I will explain to them not to tell others of course. I understand that kids/parents get benefits, but I also agree this sets up poor behaviour, speaking from my own experience of course.

Originally posted by saint4God
Childhood innocence must be a synonym for naive deception. There is indeed a very special part of Christ-mas worth exploring...and it has nothing to do with a man in a red suit nor what he has in his bag.



[edit on 16-12-2008 by saint4God]

Actually, in Darke County Ohio... it does have to do with a man in a red suit and what he has in his bag.

Keep in mind that "Up on the House Top" was written by a Christian Minister right down the road from where I grew up in New Paris.

On another note...

I mean really... for children, there is no difference between a man who walks on water and a man who flys through the air.

They are both forms of naive deceoption, but they are also both symbols of the Universe watching over them.


[edit on 16-12-2008 by HunkaHunka]

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
I mean really... for children, there is no difference between a man who walks on water and a man who flys through the air.

The children need to know one was real, the flying Santa in his sleigh is not. They have just as much right to the truth as you do.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
They are both forms of naive deceoption, but they are also both symbols of the Universe watching over them.

No they're not, sorry the lines of reality are blurred for you.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
I mean really... for children, there is no difference between a man who walks on water and a man who flys through the air.

The children need to know one was real, the flying Santa in his sleigh is not. They have just as much right to the truth as you do.

Your serious?

You've got to be kidding me. You want me to believe that a person really walked on water and raised the dead, but you don't want me to believe in a person who flies around in a sleigh, because that's just unreasonable?



OhhhhKaaaayy.....

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
They are both forms of naive deceoption, but they are also both symbols of the Universe watching over them.

No they're not, sorry the lines of reality are blurred for you.

Wow... ok.... Why would I listen to someone who believes in a fairy tale about a guy who levitates into the sky when it comes to REALITY?

Geesh... Talk about ironic!

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Your serious?

Yep, but I'm sure you already know that.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
You've got to be kidding me. You want me to believe that a person really walked on water and raised the dead, but you don't want me to believe in a person who flies around in a sleigh, because that's just unreasonable?

Did I say that? Even if I did, I'm confident you're not going to believe anything merely because I say it.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Wow... ok.... Why would I listen to someone who believes in a fairy tale about a guy who levitates into the sky when it comes to REALITY?

I don't believe in fairy tales, remember? I'm fighting this one if you'd care to start reading the thread.

[edit on 16-12-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
I mean really... for children, there is no difference between a man who walks on water and a man who flys through the air.

The children need to know one was real, the flying Santa in his sleigh is not. They have just as much right to the truth as you do.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
They are both forms of naive deceoption, but they are also both symbols of the Universe watching over them.

No they're not, sorry the lines of reality are blurred for you.

You are a funny man and I agree with Haukahunka. You cannot argue one is more valid than the other when your both talking about fairy tales.

Walking on water and talking animals is more fantastical than flying machines.

I agree and think this should be left to parents but if someone does blurt out the following one cant be out-raged and just understand if you didnt tell them the truth someone else would or they would hear for themselves at one time or another. What if the teacher did say there was no god? maybe the parents would not react in the same way since we do not know everyones outlook on relgion.

reply to post by saint4God


I've been reading the thread.. .but a story about a guy who does magical things and asks you to be good or else you'll get punished sounds a lot like a Fairy Tale to me.

At the very least it sounds exactly like Santa Claus.

Jesus is nothing more than Santa Claus for Adults.

Let me spell this out for you. The story of Jesus is the Map. The actual subjetive experience of the Universe is the Territory.

Don't get it twisted. There is truth, but don't mistake the map for the territory. There is lots of great wisdom to be found in the Story of Jesus... but there is just as much wisdom to be found in Aesops Fables (albeit of a different nature).

Jesus is no less a fairy tale than Christian Rosenkreuz

See you are convinced that the story is real because the map actually lines up pretty good with the territory in your experience.

Either way.... I find it repulsive that you would tell this fable to your children and admonish others who tell different fables to theirs. You simply believe your fairy tale is more right.

The simple truth is that people cling to fairy tales as metaphors for their experience. Nothing wrong with it. It only becomes wrong when one person thinks their fairytale is real and others are false.



This is like a Newtonian Physicist arguing with a Quantum Physicist.

[edit on 16-12-2008 by HunkaHunka]

You cannot disprove Santa.

Even if you say in your circumstances you put the presents for your child this does not disprove Santa. Santa could very well be delivering presents to others.

I will repeat again there is more evidence for the existence of Santa than there is a god, and that gods message was communicated through jesus.

Both are stories made by man.

Personally I'd rather belive in a generous man who owned a flying machine.

I do think the teacher should not have told the children solely because it caused them mental distress.

Was the teacher saving them from distress down the road? Maybe, but short term at least it caused children agony.

That was not the right approach.

Parents should not have fostered lies to their children in the first place. But the teacher should not have caused mental distress for children. Both the parents and the teacher are to be blamed.

Hi Hunka, I'd intentionally not engaged in a discussion with you previously, merely pointing out that your opinion is just as valid as mine. I understand you feel a need to mock others in their beliefs, state your opinions as if they were facts, and to support something you know is false, however on ATS we're all here to Deny Ignorance so my responsibility is adherence and promotion towards the truth. This is what I plan on supporting as taking part of the principle. It does not surprise me that parents are supporters of lies (as I said before, I worked in business for many years) but as for me and my house, we'll not propagate them.

[edit on 16-12-2008 by saint4God]