Pre-Columbian Tribes Had BBQs, Parties on Grave Sites, page 1

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Topic started on 10-12-2008 @ 12:45 PM by IvanZana

Some pre-Hispanic cultures in South America had elaborate celebrations at their cemeteries, complete with feasting and drinking grounds much like modern barbecue pits, according to a new archaeological study.

Large rings of raised earth surround the mounds, with paths leading to their centers. The rings are composed of a series of the ovens, which were built up over generations.

Complex Societies

Archaeologists traditionally viewed the Jeê people as small, nomadic groups. But these discoveries prove that theory wrong, Iriarte said.

"This is an unexpected development in this part of southern America," he said.

news.nationalgeographic.com...

Unexpected? They seem shocked that these people werent killing themselves 24/7.

These peoples of the pre-colombian americas seemed very beautiful. I can see why alot of the first visitors thought they were in a dream when they witnessed the powerful aztecs and their cities. The buildings, colours, traditions must of been breath taking. Like almost being time warped to ancient egypt.

I wonder alot on what would kind of empire the americas could of been if columbus did not sail the ocean blue.

What would they be like today?

Would they still be building more advanced pyramids and calanders?

Could a spiritually based culture or empire survive in todays political and mental climate?

[edit on 10-12-2008 by IvanZana]

[edit on 10-12-2008 by IvanZana]

[edit on 10-12-2008 by IvanZana]

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 01:01 PM by Hanslune

There has been a great deal of speculation of what would have happened if say the Mongols had overrun Europe and the rise of the Europeans had no occurred.

The Incan and Mesoamerican civilizations would have probably continued their cycle of repression and destruction, similar to models of other cultures all over the world. If we took them up to say the 17th century when contact was made by them. The same disaster would probably have still occurred.

The Aztec religion may have still been bloody minded and they may have gone after the Europeans for that.

A lack of robust naval technology might have made this difficult however.

Of course a more moderate northern Indian group might have developed a more advanced culture and suppressed their legacy of raiding.

However, meeting the old world would have introduced the same diseases into them in the same way that had happened before and again up to 90% of the population would have been lost.

The new world was in a biological cul de sac due to not having developed the close relationship with domestic animals that the West and East had done. The cross breeding of disease, which the W & E were use to was a deadly, unintended weapon agains the new worlders.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 01:17 PM by conspiracy nut

reply to post by Hanslune

maybe it could have been the other way around. the natives would have sailed the ocean blue and raped and pillaged the europeans, took their land put the white europeans on reservations, and dominated civilization around the world, took up white slaves and so on and so on. how unfair that would that be for the white europeans??? it is a refreshing thought don't you think?

but i do know that my ancestors were the first to introduce barbecue, the word barbecue originated in the new world, the spaniards fell in love with the natives barbecue meat. and the tradition spread to texas and the south and evolved to todays slow cooked bbq.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 01:21 PM by IvanZana

Originally posted by Hanslune

The Aztec religion may have still been bloody minded and they may have gone after the Europeans for that.

That is somewhat ignorant to say considering that Cortez's men slaughtered and conquered the indians in barbaric blood orgies all in the name of catholicism. So it was really the catholics that proved themsleves to be the sick barbarian invaders.

You should try thinking realistically and note that most religions were very bloody in the past exspecially the catholics, but they have become a little more civilized in the last 500 years. I would assume the Aztecs religion would of progressed using this model curtailing the bloodshed.

What would of happend if Columbus and Cortes came in peace and not with the intent of slaughtering its peoples in the name of religion or the king, sending small groups with the intent of exploring and not convert and slaughter?

As far as disease, with a slow introduction to the peoples with peace in mind it is possible that the people would of grown accustomed to the old world disease or atleast come to the realisation that these people make them sick.

I belive they would be a private empire somewhat like China is today.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 01:29 PM by Hanslune

Originally posted by conspiracy nut
reply to post by Hanslune

maybe it could have been the other way around. the natives would have sailed the ocean blue and raped and pillaged the europeans, took their land put the white europeans on reservations, and dominated civilization around the world, took up white slaves and so on and so on. how unfair that would that be for the white europeans??? it is a refreshing thought don't you think?

but i do know that my ancestors were the first to introduce barbecue, the word barbecue originated in the new world, the spaniards fell in love with the natives barbecue meat. and the tradition spread to texas and the south and evolved to todays slow cooked bbq.

The Europeans and the Asians had been doing the same thing to themselves for thousands of years. The Americas were very far behind the old world in the areas of technology. Given only a few hundred more years they probably wouldn't have made many more advances.

The people in the Americas were no more worse or better than the W & E they just lacked the organization and technology to do it.

The barbarque was probably invented by some dude or lady right after they learned to control/use fire - a good way to cook up that fallen prey.

[edit on 10/12/08 by Hanslune]

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 01:33 PM by Hanslune

As far as disease, with a slow introduction to the peoples with peace in mind it is possible that the people would of grown accustomed to the old world disease or atleast come to the realisation that these people make them sick.

A slow introduction in a peaceful way - would have had no effect whatsoever on the micro-organism involved. The massive die off would have still occurred.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 01:41 PM by conspiracy nut

reply to post by Hanslune

exactly and if they would have been able to would they have enslaved the white man or would they be equal oppurtunity enslavers?

just imagine what life would be like if it was the other way around.
and the native americans had more technology then the rest of the world.

i think imagining this scenario makes some people defensive and or guilty.

a movie with this type of scenario would be awesome!!

[edit on 10-12-2008 by conspiracy nut]

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 02:07 PM by Hanslune

Its been done in Sci-fi I believe, native americans wouldn't care for it however I would suspect!

This happened in small penny packets over the centuries, whites and asian enslaved by amerian indians.

Disease, European suffered heavily while trying to deal with tropical africa, the subcontinent and SE asia. The Americans would have been devastiated even if they had come the other way. The biological wall would have been difficult to deal with. At least for a generation or two.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 02:31 PM by conspiracy nut

i'm just asking you to imagine what it would be like if it was the other way around and the white europeans got the diseases from the natives, the natives have the advaced technology and the white europeans are considered a savage race. would make for an excellent movie! i'd like to see the movie you are talking about.

the closest movie i could think of is that one with john travolta where white people are the minority and are discriminated against. white people live in the hood and act hood never actually saw it but remember seeing the previews a couple of years back....

[edit on 10-12-2008 by conspiracy nut]

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 02:45 PM by Hanslune

reply to post by conspiracy nut

Are you referring to the the Hubbard based movie, battlefield earth?

Rotten movie, interesting premise.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 02:48 PM by conspiracy nut

found the info on wikipedia

White Man's Burden is a 1995 dramatic film about racism in an alternate America where African Americans and Caucasian Americans have reversed cultural roles.

The film revolves around Louis Pinnock a Caucasian factory worker (John Travolta), who kidnaps Thaddeus Thomas, a Black factory owner (Harry Belafonte) who fired him over a perceived slight.

The film was written and directed by Desmond Nakano.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 02:48 PM by IvanZana

Originally posted by Hanslune

As far as disease, with a slow introduction to the peoples with peace in mind it is possible that the people would of grown accustomed to the old world disease or atleast come to the realisation that these people make them sick.

A slow introduction in a peaceful way - would have had no effect whatsoever on the micro-organism involved. The massive die off would have still occurred.

To bad your history seems to be a little confused. The "massive die off" was not primarily due to disease but from the the slaughtering of north, central, and south american indian. It is a nice way of covering up the true dispicable acts of the white man by saying it was disease or themselves that killed them off.

Dont forget that the disease was brought by the spaniards in blankets. They gave the blankets to the indians and pretended to be friends. When the disease took hold they would continue to slaughter. One of the first examples of germ warfare.

By October 1519 Cotes' force reached the Aztec village of Choula where they slaughtered over 3000 citizens of Choula in May of 1521 Cortes assaulted the Aztec capital, Tenochtitlan. The Spanish attacks lasted till about August 13, 1521 and when it ended over 240,000 Aztecs were dead and the Aztec Empire destroyed. And thats just the aztecs.

[edit on 10-12-2008 by IvanZana]

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 02:55 PM by AgentOrangeJuice

Yeah I believe it.
Possibly they were eating there own people?
It wouldn't surprise me.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 02:59 PM by conspiracy nut

reply to post by IvanZana

if you go to mexico or most any other latin american country it is obvious, there are way more natives alive in those countries. the spaniards may have killed alot of indians but they also intermarried with them. alot of hispanics in these countries have native blood and features.

what happened to all the natives in the u.s? sure you have some people in the u.s who claim some native ancestry but we dont have a mestizo population by any means.

as far as i know the u.s never had a native president, by contrast benito juarez was a zapotec amerindian who served 5 terms as president of mexico starting in 1858 the first full-blooded indigenous national to serve as President of Mexico and to lead a country in the Western Hemisphere in over 300 years.

reply posted on 11-12-2008 @ 04:59 PM by The Cyfre

Originally posted by IvanZana
That is somewhat ignorant to say considering that Cortez's men slaughtered and conquered the indians in barbaric blood orgies all in the name of catholicism. So it was really the catholics that proved themsleves to be the sick barbarian invaders.

I don't think it's ignorant to call native american civilizations barbaric or whatever, that doesn't imply that the europeans weren't.

Originally posted by IvanZana
You should try thinking realistically and note that most religions were very bloody in the past exspecially the catholics, but they have become a little more civilized in the last 500 years. I would assume the Aztecs religion would of progressed using this model curtailing the bloodshed.

Religions have become a little more civilized? I think you mean "little more civilized" instead. There are still plenty of bloody killings that go on, slaughters of children, etc.

Originally posted by IvanZana
What would of happend if Columbus and Cortes came in peace and not with the intent of slaughtering its peoples in the name of religion or the king, sending small groups with the intent of exploring and not convert and slaughter?

Well, who knows what would have happened then? But the world was a much different place in the time of Cortes and the Aztecs. Religion was so much more influential then than today, and completely tied up in european government. Just like the Aztecs.

Originally posted by IvanZana
As far as disease, with a slow introduction to the peoples with peace in mind it is possible that the people would of grown accustomed to the old world disease or atleast come to the realisation that these people make them sick.

A slow introduction with peace in mind? How is that going to stop a disease from spreading? Aside from that, due to the lack of technology in those times, Aztecs didn't ever realize that the spanish made them sick. THEY thought their Gods were punishing them.