The 5 Most Important Days in Prophetic History, page 2
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reply posted on 10-4-2010 @ 06:06 PM by SirPaulMuaddib
[I]Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddib[/I]

Re: The 7th Trumpet

The 1st trumpet is sounded at the BEGINNING of that last year...the rest of the trumpets sound throughout that year, the LAST TRUMPET, the 7th Trumpet ENDS that year.


Did I make this up? Did I pull this out of thin air? Does the bible support these statements?

Let's see....

Here are some bible verses.....



Rev 6:12 .... And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

Rev 6:17 ...for the great day of His wrath HAS COME(that is, it has arrived, it has started), and who will be able to stand?


The bible as always, agrees with itself everywhere....
Let's read about this in Joel.

Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and terrible day of the LORD come



Right after the Sun/Moon sign, which is the 6th, the 7th seal is opened....these contain the 7 trumpets.
Rev 7:1 And after these things (the sun/moon sign)...

The 144,000 are sealed, and then the 7th seal is opened.

Rev 8:1 ...He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in Heaven for about half an hour.

Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stood before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.




Again, at the start of the Day of the Lord, The Year of God's wrath, the 7th seal is opened.

Logic would dictate that at least the 1st Trumpet is sounded at this time.

Trumpet 2-6 are sounded through out the year, it is not possible to pinpoint exactly when they are blown.



But let's notice the 5th Trumpet. It provides an interesting fact.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded....

Rev 9:3 And out of the smoke came forth locusts onto the earth.....

Rev 9:10 And they had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. And their authority was to hurt men five months.


This plague of the locust army (the OT interprets the locusts as an army of men), lasts for 5 months.

So we know, that at the maximum, the 5th Trumpet will be blown be NO LATER than 5 months before the return of Christ, which occurs at the 7th Trumpet. So we can float this 5 month period somewhere into the latter half of that year.

And of course the 7th Trumpet, is sounded at the end of that year.



So while we can not pinpoint exactly when the Trumpets are sounded, we can see the following

1) 7th Seal Starts out the Final Year, and most certainly the 1st Trumpet also starts out that year.

2) 5th Trumpet starts NO LATER than 5 months before 7th Trumpet/Second Coming.

3) 7th Trumpet sounded. Christ Returns.



So we see (recap)

1st Trumpet starts on first day of that Last Year

Trumpets 2-6 are sounded through out that year.

7th Trumpet ends that year.









[edit on 10-4-2010 by SirPaulMuaddib]


reply posted on 11-4-2010 @ 12:11 PM by Locoman8
reply to post by cwhjra



However, I have also found that the 2 witnesses begin their 1260 day ministry 75 days after the sacrifice and oblation is taken away because they are rapture on the same day as the last trumpet which is 1335 days after the sacrifice is taken away. So in this you were right that these two times start at different times but end at the same time. This was a revelation to me.


Okay, I have to stop you right there. So far, the only supporting evidence you have for the 1335 days being the rapture is the scripture that points out
"12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. "

Now think for a second here. Do you think the book of Daniel may have been explaining that after the peace treaty is broken and the abomination is set up, things will be so chaotic that 75 days later, it would be a blessing to have made it through that long? There is nothing suggesting that the 1335 days has anything to do with the rapture.
Also, I think you are relying way to heavily on Daniel and not concentrating on the other prophetic books of the bible. There is indeed 3 1/2 years of "Great Tribulation" as Daniel, Isaiah, Revelation and a few other books claim the same time (time, times, and dividing of times; 42 months, 1260 days).
I can tell you're a smart person, but your views are clouded by Daniel's "timing" on when things will happen.

In short, here's my take on those days.....

7 year peace treaty is signed between the "King of the North" and Israel.
45 days before the half-way point, the "Abomination of Desolation" is set up at the Holy Place (temple, tabernacle, altar???).
1260 days after the peace treaty, the "King of the North" declares war on Israel which will begin WWIII and the "Great Tribulation".
75 days later, who knows what happens.



reply posted on 12-4-2010 @ 05:55 PM by cwhjra
SirPaul;
Ist of All, the 5th trumpet is not 5 months before Christs Return
Daniel 8:13,14 reveals that Christ will not return until 2300 days after the abomination is set up. Many teach that this 2300 days pertains to another time but the bible says it is for the time of the end. So then there are 965 days from the time the daily sacrifice is set up until the Return of Christ to reign on the Earth. You can argue that but the word is clear if you do the math. 965 days is close to 3 years. Based on this the dust will have lots of time to settle while the wrath is poured out will.

You say that the first trumpet sounds on the 1st day of the year. I know of no reason for this to be true. You say it is obvious. Tell me why.
You say that the 2-6 trumpets are spaced out over that last year. I don't know what you think the trumpets are but i know what the bible says they are. They are a star that will fall from the sky and strike the earth with an impact that will move the earth out of its place. Now the word star is better translated asteroid in our time because a star is now considered a sun today.
The fact that this star looks like a mountain burning with fire describes the long tail that any burning object falling through our atmosphere has. It burns up a third of the forest. Well that would happen if an asteroid hit us the size that it would take to move the planet. All green grass would burn may be as a result of the increase in global temperature, I am not sure. But the fact that it lands in the sea tells me it is a literal hit, the fact that it destroys a third of the ships in the sea should be obvious as well as a third of the fish.

This is not something that will span out over a year, it will take less than a day from the time it enters and begins to burn to the time of impact will be minutes. Isaiah 13:9-13 tells us that he will move the earth out of its place on the day of the Lord.

Now Rev 8:12 tells us that 1/3 of the sun, moon, stars, day, night, and light were smitten. If he hits the earth hard enough to knock it spinning faster by 1/3 we will see a 1/3 less sun, moon, stars, day, night, and light. This is not that hard to figure out once you have all the pieces.

The fifth trumpet can only be understood if you accept that the earth is hollow as I have tried to explain on this link

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you can't accept that the earth is hollow don't fret. Not many can. Your salvation is not dependent on it. But I will tell you this. There are a lot of questions answered by this understanding.


reply posted on 12-4-2010 @ 05:57 PM by abcdef
reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib_2


ABSOLUTE RUBBISH.

The birth of Christ is the single most important prophetic event in human history and one that was long prophecised.


reply posted on 12-4-2010 @ 06:09 PM by SirPaulMuaddib
Originally posted by abcdef
reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib_2


ABSOLUTE RUBBISH.

The birth of Christ is the single most important prophetic event in human history and one that was long prophecised.


Did you even read past the title? Did you read the first sentence?


reply posted on 12-4-2010 @ 06:40 PM by cwhjra
locoman8;
You told me that you agree with sirpaul on most issues. I received confirmation on the fact that the 1335 day is the day of the rapture from his link. Anyway, I do not rely on Daniel alone, I rely on the Bible, but thereis no point in mentioning every verse if the book we are looking at has all of the answers we need.

You indicated that you are one of those who are convinced that their will be a peace treaty with Israel. There is no place in the bible that makes this claim. This hole idea is manufactured from one verse that tells us that when they cry peace and safety sudden destruction comes upon them. This verse in 1st Thessalonian 5:3 says nothing about a treaty. It is speaking of the Day of the Lord when the Star hits. It is sudden destruction. The whole context is about the rapture which is at the end of the seven years. It has nothing to do with the covenant.

This Covenant was signed on Jan 1st 2007. It is called the European Neighborhood Partnership Instrument orchestrated by Joveir Solana. He was acting High representative (Prince, chief, commander, leader) of the European Union (Roman Empire) at that time. This covenant was not made on that day. It was a culmination of many agreements made with various Middle East nations over several years. On Jan 1st 2007 Solana put his signature on a document that CONFIRMED this agreement for their 7 year budget term.

This makes June 2010 the midst of the covenant when the EU will take away the daily sacrifice and set up there the abomination that causes desolations. It just happens that the Sanhedrin is right now accepting applications from Jews around the world to send money for lambs to be sacrificed this June on the alter that has just recently been built. No coincidence there.

This is not supposed to be a treaty between the king of the north and Israel. It is between the prince of the people that destroyed the sanctuary which was the Roman soldiers at the order of Caesar. Today this would be a prince of the European Union. The King of the North of Daniel 8 is the King of Syria and he has nothing to do with the making of this covenant although he will be very agree at the covenant when ships from Cyprus stop his plans to attack Egypt in the Mediterranean this summer according to Daniel 11:21-31.

Your understanding of the 3rd world war does not line up with scripture.

This war does not come at the middle of the 7 years. I believe this understanding is derived from Luke 21:20 where the armies camp about Jerusalem. These armies do not bring about World war 3. Their job is a very quick surgery to take away the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination that causes desolations. Obviously this will not be simple but it will not cause a world war. We still have 3 1/2 years to wait for Armageddon.

As well there is no battle between Syria and Israel. When he is stopped in the Mediterranean ARMS RISE UP ON HIS PART. Not him but because of him the EU surrounds Jerusalem and takes away the Daily sacrifice. If you look at Daniel 8 you will find that it is the little horn who actually takes away the daily sacrifice.


reply posted on 15-4-2010 @ 12:03 AM by doctorex
Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddib
A lesson in English would be in order


If I say

In the year I was born, x happened

In the year that y was president, a and b got married.

In the year that z landed on the moon, w happened.

Then yes, x happened, a and b happened (got married), w happened, but not for the whole year.


If we are talking about an event that happened IN a year, then correct English would require a statement of the form (or similar)

IN (within, around, about, etc) the year of X, Y happened

Then we are talking about an event Y that happens in the year of X.


If we say

THE year that x was mayor, x lived in New York.
THE year x lived in Europe, x only walked.
THE year x worked at Z, was x's happiest year.


Year is a definitive amount of time, and it is referring to something that spanned that whole time.




8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and THE YEAR of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

It does NOT say, IN THE YEAR, it says THE YEAR...and is referring to something that will SPAN THAT YEAR, and that would be the Lord's vengeance.

There are other verses that agree (of course God's words agrees with itself) with this, and have already been quoted, and they all say the same thing

[to be continued...]

[edit on 1-4-2010 by SirPaulMuaddib]


According to your English lesson, if I say, "the year of my birth", or "the year I took vengeance on the schoolyard bully", or "the year I will make good on my debts", then that means mean it took/takes a whole year, which is incorrect, and this is exactly how it is stated it the verse you quoted..."the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion." This does not have to take a whole year to complete, it could simply be the year it takes place.


Notice also the beginning of the verse...."For it is THE DAY of the LORD'S vengeance"


reply posted on 15-4-2010 @ 12:39 AM by doctorex
Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddib
A person seeking the truth does not go in and insert his interpretation, he READS OUT from the word, looking for truth.

Let's look at Rev 11:18, what does it say? Let's read a few translations...

Rev 11:18

(KJV+) AndG2532 theG3588 nationsG1484 were angry,G3710 andG2532 thyG4675 wrathG3709 is come,G2064 andG2532 theG3588 timeG2540 of theG3588 dead,G3498 that they should be judged,G2919 andG2532 that thou shouldest giveG1325 rewardG3408 unto thyG4675 servantsG1401 theG3588 prophets,G4396 andG2532 to theG3588 saints,G40 andG2532 them that fearG5399 thyG4675 name,G3686 smallG3398 andG2532 great;G3173 andG2532 shouldest destroyG1311 them which destroyG1311 theG3588 earth.G1093

(LITV) And the nations were (WERE: PAST TENSE) full of wrath; and Your wrath came(CAME: PAST TENSE), and the time of the judging of the dead, and to give the reward to Your slaves, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those destroying the earth.



Just because it is translated in English as maybe being past-tense, doesn't mean that is how it is meant. For example, notice the word translated as "come" which you stated was meant as past-tense....

2064. erchomai er'-khom-ahee middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) eleuthomai el-yoo'-thom-ahee, or (active) eltho el'-tho, which do not otherwise occur) to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

Usage: arrival(1), arrived(1), brought(1), came(219), come(234), comes(62), coming(88),Expected(m)(3), fall(2), falls(m)(1), go(1), going(2), grown(1), next(1), turned(1), went(18).


It is a present/progressive middle voice word, so you can't interpret it to definitely mean past-tense.

These nations will be angry from what they have done to each other and had done to them through the tribulation, in the lead up to the end, as part of the trumpets of the seventh seal. The wrath of God begins at the last trump. They are angry at each other, that is why they gather to fight at Megido, stirred up by demons, but end up joining to fight Christ at his coming. The wrath of God is now come/coming/arrived/expected.

Notice the moffat translatiion, and notice also that the time of God's wrath is tied to the time of the dead to be judged, and the rewarding of the saints, namely the return of Christ..

MOF Revelation 11:18 the nations were enraged, BUT thine anger has come; the time has come for the dead to be judged, the time for rewarding thy servants the prophets, and the saints who reverence thy name, both low and high, the time for destroying the destroyers of the earth."


The nations WERE angry, because they had to endure a whole years worth of God's wrath that DID COME.

It is NOT talking about something that WILL COME, it's talking about something (God's Wrath) that DID COME, and what follows is the unmeasured pouring out of plagues, that will consummate His wrath.


As I showed above, that the word translated as "come" (referring to God's wrath) is not a past-tense word. You have inserted your own translation, just as you warned against in your quote above. It is basically saying, the nations were angry, and now you wrath is come/coming (since it is present/progressive tense), the time for the dead to be judged and the saints rewarded. It is just hard to convey in English because English does not exactly have a middle voice....

The middle voice
Further information: Deponent verb, Reflexive verb, Mediopassive voice and Unaccusative verb
Some languages (such as Sanskrit, Icelandic and Ancient Greek) have a middle voice. The middle voice is in the middle of the active and the passive voice because the subject cannot be categorized as either agent or patient but has elements of both. An intransitive verb that appears active but expresses a passive action characterizes the English middle voice. For example, in The casserole cooked in the oven, cooked appears syntactically active but semantically passive, putting it in the middle voice. In Classical Greek, the middle voice is often reflexive, denoting that the subject acts on or for itself, such as "The boy washes himself", or "The boy washes". It can be transitive or intransitive. It can occasionally be used in a causative sense, such as "The father causes his son to be set free", or "The father ransoms his son".

Many deponent verbs in Latin represent survivals of the Proto-Indo-European middle voice; many of these in turn survive as obligatory pseudo-reflexive verbs in the Romance languages such as French and Spanish.

en.wikipedia.org...(grammar)#The_middle_voice


The present progressive tense takes the form be + V ing.
The form of be is determined by the subject of the sentence.


He is singing.
She is listening.

They are sleeping.

I am going home.


In English, the present progressive is used to indicate actions happening at the time of speaking, or right now.

Jake is speaking to his mother right now.
Please keep quiet. The baby is sleeping.


The present progressive can also be used to indicate actions occurring over a period of time which includes the present.

I'm taking five classes at the university.
Grace is working at a chemical factory.

What are you doing these days?


The present progressive is sometimes used to indicate ongoing, developing, imminent or future actions.

Ongoing

Don't bother Mr. Grumpy while he is watching the football game.

Developing

I'm beginning to like this place!

Imminent

A: Honey, where are you?
B: I'm coming. Just let me put on my shoes.


Future (Note the presence of future time words.)

A: Are you going to the concert this weekend?
B: I wish I could, but I'm meeting an important client from Oklahoma.

www.eslgold.com...


The 7 last vials/bowls are the consummation of that wrath, to say all the plagues mentioned would occur on one day is simply ludicrous.


You are limiting God.

The 7th trumpet itself, yes, that will occur on one day, the vials/bowls that follow, do NOT ALL TAKE PLACE ON THE SELF SAME DAY.

These plague will be witnessed by resurrected saints. It will occur AFTER the Second Coming, and will take a certain amount of time.


yes I agree, that the resurrection takes place at the blowing of the last trump, and the wrath of God does not begin until after it is blown. The resurrected saints actually take part in the wrath of God, they are part of the army that comes with Christ to fight at Armageddon.

I do not know, if one can estimate the time span this will occur over, but it will not be in one day.


Again, you are limiting God.

The sixth vial/bowl, involves the gathering of the Armageddon army, who will travel over land...it will take many days, for this vast army to be gathered.
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial on the great river Euphrates. And its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the rising of the sun might be prepared.


These armies could be gathered just beyond the river, and they could get from there to the valley of Megido (which is only 290 miles at the shortest distance) in much less than 24 hours.

[edit on 15/4/10 by doctorex]


reply posted on 16-4-2010 @ 09:04 PM by cwhjra
doctorex;
You have said that Christ fights at Armageddon. I am not sure of this. Jesus is the Word of God. When he comes there won't be much fighting from what I understand. He will speak and the nations will tremble. His sword is the word of God.

There is a verse in Daniel that speaks toward the end times that tells us that from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away and the sanctuary is cleansed there will be 2300 days. To my calculation this places Jesus return almost 3 years after the idol is set up in the sanctuary. Most people have tried to cram all of the prophecies about the end of this age into the 7 years with Jesus beginning his reign right at the end of the 7.

I don't see this.

I see the abomination set up in the midst of the 7, the Jews taken out of Israel at that point, the free masons building the temple after this, the 2 witnesses beginning their ministry shortly after this, the Vatican in charge of the temple for the last 3 1/2 years, an asteroid hit sometime in the last year, the beast ascending from the pit, he kills the 2 witnesses, the rapture at the last trumpet at day 1335, the beast sitting in the temple proclaiming he is God, Armageddon (lasting a long time) Jesus return 2300 days after the midst of the 7 years which places his return 965 days after the rapture. That is 2 years 235 days after the rapture, (2300-1335=965)

During this 965 days the battle rages and the bowls of wrath, the vials and the thunders all unfold. I see no way to alter this sequence. The 2300 days are a time that many have said was already fulfilled but i don't believe their evidence lines up. The word says this whole area of scripture is for the time of the end and they way I laid it out leaves nothing to question in these areas.


reply posted on 17-4-2010 @ 10:07 PM by Locoman8
reply to post by cwhjra


I have to agree with you over DoctorX as far as the Armageddon battle is concerned. Christ's fight is used with the words of judgement and truth. His words are His sword. Not a finger will be lifted on this 2nd to the last battle. The final battle between good and evil comes after the 1000 year peace on earth when Satan is released for a short time. This is where "Gog and Magog" come in. It's speaking of the final battle... not Armageddon.
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