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Hey Skeptics….Merry Christmas! A little Christology 101 from the OldThinker and Gospels!

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posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 01:50 PM
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Hey Skeptics….Merry Christmas! A little Christology 101 from the OldThinker and Gospels!

“OT was ‘home-alone’…and in the spirit of Macaulay Culkin thought I’d stir up some more fun, after all its Christmas!

Nah, just kidding…I’ve been doing some reading lately on the PERSON of Jesus Christ and that it apropos to discuss Him during this holiday season!” 

Sing this to the jingle bells theme----I wonder … ooooh wonder…can we do this civil-ly? I just had a vision of Sinbad, getting piled-on at the Mall of America and saying… “Rodney King, Rodney King…” in Jingle All The Way.

“But OT can’t we have some more of your music videos, first?”

Ok…here’s a SOFT one! Stars…who do you see? … uk.youtube.com...

OK…here a Harder one… “5 WORDS? Just 5 WORDS?” What could they be? Btw, these words start at time 2:59 min … see… www.youtube.com...

And the Hardest! Enjoy… OT was gonna use this one, but I can’t understand them??? But my boy loves um’… here… www.youtube.com...

“Thanks OT, I always love those videos, how do they tie in to this thread?

“Well, they start to answer the mooost important question of all of time…”WHOM DO YOU SAY THAT IAM?”

“So, OT is the Lord Jesus Christ the real TURBO-MAN?”

1) Did you know Jesus’ Words make no sense, unless he’s God. See here for possible options… www.abovetopsecret.com...
a. Mark 13:31-His Words even out last TIME itself. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away
b. Matt 7:21-23-His says people’s eternity rest on Him. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
c. John 8:46-He claims absolute perfection! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin
d. John 15:5, John 17:10. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing……..Note: this is another passage that makes no sense without a divine Jesus. How could the phrase 'apart from me you can do nothing' make any sense--if Jesus were not God--omnipotent, omnipresent deity? John 17.10: All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. -- Note that Jesus is praying to God in this verse

2) Did you know He is PRE-EXISTENT?
a. John 3:13- No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven -- the Son of Man
b. John 6:38- For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me
c. John 8:23- But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world"
d. John 8:58,59-"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him--Notice: This statement actually goes beyond pre-existence--it is an explicit claim to be YHWH

3) Did you know He can be everywhere AT THE SAME TIME?
a. Matt 18:20- For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
b. Matthew 28:20- And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

4) Did you know He is ALL POWERFUL?
a. Matthew 28:18- Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
b. Mark 4:41- They were terrified and asked each other, "Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!"
Luke 4:36- All the people were amazed and said to each other, "What is this teaching? With authority and power he gives orders to evil spirits and they come out!"
c. Luke 4:38-40- Jesus … rebuked the fever, and it left her. She got up at once and began to wait on them. When the sun was setting, the people brought to Jesus all who had various kinds of sickness, and laying his hands on each one, he healed them.
d. John 1:3- Through him [Jesus] all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made
e. John 5:27- And he [God] has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man."
f. John 6:37, 39-: "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away… I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day"
g. John 10:17, 18-"… I lay down my life… I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again"

5) Did you know He asked for and ACCEPTED Worship?
a. Jeremiah 17:5-Jewish pre-requisite: This is what the Lord says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man…"
b. Matthew 4:10- Jesus said to him… "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only"
c. Mark 9:42-"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin…"
d. John 9:35-38- Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" "Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him." Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshipped him.

6) Did you know He has ALL Authority?
a. To forgive sins?
i. Mark 2:5-10- When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...."
ii. Luke 7:48,49- Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"
b. Over angels? Over the Sabbath? Over who goes to Heaven?
i. Mark 13:26-27- "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
ii. Mark 2:28- So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
iii. Matt 5:17-"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them…"
iv. Luke 10:19- I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you
v. John 17:2- For you granted him authority over all people
vi. Luke 22:29- And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me

7) Did you know HE IS EQUAL TO GOD? He’s called the Son of God- A son is of the same nature, the same species, the same essence, as his father. Jesus called God his Father, thereby saying that he is of the same nature as God. Jesus makes it clear that he is not just 'a son of God' or one of the 'sons of God' but 'the son of God' (the phrase 'sons of God' is sometimes used to refer to men or angels in the Old Testament). In every instance where Jesus refers to himself as 'God's Son', or to God as 'my Father', he implies that he is the one and only Son of God; co-equal and co-eternal with God.
a. Matthew 16.15-17: "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ [Messiah], the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."
b. Mark 14.62: Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" "I am," said Jesus.
c. John 5.17-23: Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. Sources: www.knowwhatyoubelieve.com...
d. John 15:23-He equate himself with God. He who hates me hates my Father as well.
e. John 5:22-He says He should be honored like God. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him
f. John 12:44 & John 14:9-He says if you’ve seen me you’ve seen God. “When a man… looks at me, he sees the one who sent me” and “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
g. John 8:19-He said if you knew Him, you know God. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.
h. Luke 19:43, 43-He says He (God) came to the Jewish people. The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."
• John 5:17-He operates with God. Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.”
i. John 10:30-39-He claims complete equality with God. “I and the Father are one." 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came -- and the Scripture cannot be broken -- 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.”

In summary…Jesus is said to be…
Pre-existent "before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8:58

Omnipresent "and surely I am with you always" Matthew 28:20

Omniscient "you know all things … You believe at last!" John 16:30

Omnipotent "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" Matthew 28:18

Worshipped "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin…" Mark 9:42

A Divine Authority To forgive sins , To have authority over the laws of the Sabbath, That the elect and angels are his, To be able to give authority over evil to others, To have authority over all people

Word will outlast time "my words will never pass away" Mark 13:31

Sinless "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?" John 8:46

That all God has is his "All I have is yours, and all you have is mine" - said praying to God - John 17:10

Freedom "If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed" John 8:36

Send prophets "Therefore I am sending you prophets" Matthew 23:34

Deserve highest loyalty "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me" Mt 10:37

Equal with God that a response to him is the same as a response to God. John 15:23
that he is to be honoured to the same extent as God is honoured. John 5:22
that to see him is to see God. John 14:9
that to know him is to know God. John 8:19
that him coming to the Jewish people was same as God being there.Luke 19:43
that he operates with and to the same extent as God. John 5:17
that he is directly equal with God. John 10:30-39

That people's eternal destiny depends on their response to him. Mathew 7:21-23, John 8:24



CHRONICLES OF NARNIA, www.disney.co.uk...

Author, C. S. Lewis said, ''A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else the Devil of Hell. You must take your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon, or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great moral teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."




posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 01:57 PM
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Edit


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 01:59 PM
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reply to [url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread417944/pg1#pid543961

[edit on 8-12-2008 by OldThinker]



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 03:20 PM
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Did You Know?

1) This time of year is the pagan festival of Yule, the Winter Solstice? Those crafty Christians decided since everyone was celebrating it anyways, they would interject their BS into it, much like Halloween (the Celtic New Year) and Easter? December 25th was the festival of the Birth of the SUN in the Mithraic tradition. It's quite likely they stole the basics of communion from there too.

2) The Old Testament, aside from vague promises of a "Messiah" for the Jewish people, never says squat about old JC? Here's some scripture you forgot:
'Put not your trust in princes, nor in the SON OF MAN, in whom there is no help'
-Ps. 146:3 (emphasis mine). Isn't that one of JC's titles? Here's one more for you: 'I, even I am the Lord; and BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOR" - Isa. 43:11 (emphasis mine again). Seems pretty clear, it's God alone who would be your "savior".

3) The worst thing in the history of mankind has been monotheism. All the destruction that has been wrought over thousands of years and for what? "My God is better than yours?" It's like little kids sitting around arguing over whos dad can beat up the other dads. These 2 Jewish cults (and I'm not bashing Jews here, but strange offshoots of other religion are generally called this) of Christianity and Islam are still screwing over the world today.

In conclusion, at some point in our lives, we realize that Santa is just our parents, there is no Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Great Pumpkin, Superman,whatever. So why must we persist in this illogical belief of a cosmic Jewish zombie who, if we telepathically accept as our savior, will redeem us from a sin caused by a talking snake making a girl eat fruit? You seem to have studied this subject a lot, just think what anyone who has could accomplish if they had instead spent that time and effort on learning something like physics ,calculus, art, cooking, etc.



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 03:29 PM
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A lot of what this "Jesus" says, or is said of him by others, is imminently unprovable. For instance, the first thing, that his words will "outlast time itself." How can that ever be proven? Oh, sure, the words might last a couple thousand years, maybe even a couple thousand more. Maybe.

But who will be around to even prove that they outlast time? Nobody. The idea is just silly, really, particularly since as far as anyone knows the universe, including the dimension we call time, can't exist without people, or at least a consciousness of some kind. The best anyone might be able to claim is that their words will last as long as there is a consciousness alive to allow the universe to exist.

That's just one example of the generally unprovable nature of such claims.

This is what they call "puffery" in the advertising business. A claim that is so silly or outlandish (So easy a caveman could do it!) that no reasonable person would believe it, so it can't be litigated as false advertising.


[edit on 8-12-2008 by Nohup]



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 03:32 PM
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reply to post by Nohup
 


Nohup....

Hi, I AGREE with you....outlast TIME itself....outlandish!!!!


But he said it!!!


Mind-bogggling to OT as well....


So I take it you do not believe the Bible?

OT


PS: Thanks for reading my thread bud...



[edit on 8-12-2008 by OldThinker]



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 03:35 PM
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Also, what did you think of the SWITCHFOOT, HASTE THE DAY and UNDEROATH youtubes?

Have you ever heard of them?


Did you listen?


Thanks

OT



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 03:47 PM
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The problem with using your own scripture to prove the claims in your scripture is that it's essentially circular. If you read the Koran you'll find plenty of scriptural sources to support that everything Mohammed said is true, and if your read the Edda you'll find plenty of scriptural evidence to support the claim that Wotan is the father of the gods the universe is made from the corpse of a giant. Which one is true? All of them? None of them? And if only one of them, why is that one true whilst the others are not - because based on scriptures, each is individually and exclusively true at the expense of the others.



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by rexpop
The problem with using your own scripture to prove the claims in your scripture is that it's essentially circular. If you read the Koran you'll find plenty of scriptural sources to support that everything Mohammed said is true, and if your read the Edda you'll find plenty of scriptural evidence to support the claim that Wotan is the father of the gods the universe is made from the corpse of a giant. Which one is true? All of them? None of them? And if only one of them, why is that one true whilst the others are not - because based on scriptures, each is individually and exclusively true at the expense of the others.



rexpop,


You make a very valid point!!!!


Issue here is.....do you see the logic here?


Without FAITH it is impossible to please God!!!!


Do you believe the Bible or not?

I'm NOT debating the Bible COMPARED to other religious documents here, I don't see EMPTY TOMBS in all those other faiths....


Yes, you are right....OT is using circular logic, but what if I'm RIGHT?

How will you respond?

OT curious


[edit on 8-12-2008 by OldThinker]



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 03:59 PM
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edit...

[edit on 8-12-2008 by OldThinker]



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 04:07 PM
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See here for reliability discussions....

• The Reliability of the Bible Texts - Higher & Lower Criticism: Part of ...
The Origin of the Bible: The Reliability of the Bible Texts defines and describes both Lower Criticism and Higher Criticism in a way that the average Christian can understand it.
www.foundationsforfreedom.net/Topics/Bible/Bible_Reliability.html

• About the Bible - ChristianAnswers® WebBible™
Reliability of the Bible - Did the people, places and events of the Bible really happen? What has archaeology proved?
christiananswers.net/bible/about.html

• Lee Strobel: Channel: Investigating the Bible
The latest evidence points straight to God, confirming He indeed created the universe. This truth conflicts with the naturalistic view, which holds that the universe began entirely ...
www.leestrobel.com/channels/Bible.php

• Authenticity of the Bible
Describes the manuscript and archeological evidence supporting the reliability of the text of the Bible as an original ancient manuscript
www.godandscience.org/apologetics/authenticity.html

• 1way2God.net - The Bible's Reliability
Provides information on the reliability of the Bible, answering some common misconceptions. ... The Reliability of the Bible. Contents . Introduction; Multiplicity of copies ...
www.1way2god.net/biblereliability.html

• The Reliability of the Bible
The Reliability of the Bible. In the previous lesson we examined some of the unique features of the Bible, including its exclusive claims to be the inspired, inerrant Word of God.
www.clemson.edu/spurgeon/books/apology/Chapter4.html

• Reliability of the Bible
Is the Bible reliable? Can you trust this book to be truly God's Word - or is it just another holy book. Examine the evidence and you'll see how unique the Bible truly is.
evidencetobelieve.net/reliability_of_the_bible.html

• The Evidence Bible
Archaeology and History Attest to the Reliability of the Bible. By Richard M. Fales, Ph.D.
www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/archaeologyandhistory.shtml



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 04:40 PM
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One of the things the Bible apparently doesn't teach you very well, is how to argue your case to people who haven't already accepted your case as valid. For example, if someone doesn't believe in, say, "God," then is your argument still supposed to be that the Bible is the word of this same God, so it must therefore be true? I'm sure it makes sense to you, but do you see where the "gap" is, so to speak?



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 04:49 PM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 


bsbray11,

Thank you for the counsel on logic, do YOU have an issue/argument with the Bible that you would like to take up with OT?




posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
So I take it you do not believe the Bible?


It's not that I don't believe it, it's just that it tends to use language that is vague or undefined. I can't believe what doesn't make any sense.

Unfortunately, all of this kind of vague language, piled on top of itself, tends to make people "intoxicated from the bubbling spring," as Jesus is to have said in the Gospel of Thomas (Verse 14). They respond to the noise of the words and don't see that the words are often meaningless. Then they'll try to talk to me, using these words, and they don't understand that they're just babbling gibberish.

It's too bad, really. At the core of Gnostic Christianity, their response to an incomprehensible and shockingly cruel existence was that in this hell where we live, the best thing we can do is be kind to one another to try to lessen to at least a small degree the pain we cause each other. That's a reasonable thing to suggest. It's unfortunate that so many people get caught up and dazzled by the other talk of kings and power and infinity and forever. None of that stuff means anything, really.



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 06:38 PM
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Originally posted by Nohup

Originally posted by OldThinker
So I take it you do not believe the Bible?


At the core of Gnostic Christianity....



Hey please break it down for me, what does Gnostic Christianity teach? Its been way too long from I studied...really long ago.


Help me out, I'm curious....


OT


Heading to dinner I'll get back with you....



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 06:56 PM
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OK, is this 'gospel of Thomas, the writing of the fellow who had 'doubts' and had to 'see' BEFORE he believed?

Thanks

OT



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 07:02 PM
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Don't believe the 'gospel' of Thomas.


Merry Christmas, OT



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 07:19 PM
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reply to post by Anonymous ATS
 



cosmic Jewish zombie?

That's a good one!

Any facts with that 'anonymous' post?



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 08:01 PM
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Hey OT!

Here is some information on Gnosticism:

It is considered to be a knowledge of the divine mysteries and especially for an elite group.

Gnostics were more concerned with knowing God directly through experience than gaining FACTS about Jesus or God. They were concerned less about faith in Jesus' words and were more interested in becoming like him and in turn about knowing God.

Here are some points that come from the site, gnosis.org that describe many characteristics of Gnostics:

*The Gnostics posited an original spiritual unity that came to be split into a plurality.

*As a result of the precosmic division the universe was universe was created.This was done by a leader possessing inferior spiritual powers and who often resembled the OT Jehovah.

*A female emanation of God was involved in the cosmic creation (Sophia).

*In the cosmos, space and time have a malevolent character an may be personified as demonic beings separating man from God.

*For man, the universe is a vast prison. He is enslaved both by the physical laws of nature and by such moral laws as the Mosaic code.

*Mankind may be personified as Adam, who lies in the deep sleep of ignorance, his powers of spiritual self-awareness stupefied by materiality.

*Within each natural man is an "inner man," a fallen spark of the divine substance. Since this exists in each man, we have the possibility of awakening from our stupefaction.

*What effects the awakening is not obedience, faith, or good works, but knowledge.

*Before the awakening, men undergo troubled dreams.

*Man does not attain the knowledge that awakens him from these dreams by cognition but through revelatory experience, and this knowledge is not information but a modification of the sensate being.

*The awakening (i.e., the salvation) of any individual is a cosmic event.

*Since the effort is to restore the wholeness and unity of the Godhead, active rebellion against the moral law of the OT is enjoined upon every man.


This subject is being discussed here, and may interest you on some level.



posted on Dec, 8 2008 @ 08:49 PM
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Merry CHRISTmas everyone!!!!!..........Whether you like it or not..







 
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