More Mayhem & Death At Wal-Mart

Originally posted by Merriman Weir

Originally posted by SilentOne
BTW: Up here in Alaska; they still sell guns in walmart.

Why? Just in case Palin tries leaving her house again?

As for the actual story, incredible! I don't know about Florida's specific take on murder &c., but don't they have a 2nd degree murder charge there or an equivalent? I mean, the autopsy states: death was caused by asphyxia due to neck and chest compression, and the Wal*Mart workers actually held him down by his back, head and arms. What's the issue here?

LOL Hey I'll call my bud Horatio up. He works for CSI Miami...

Sorry I had to try to joke after my side ripped reading your Palin comment

It' cool Zindo. Unfortunately, I think all of these shoplifting stories are just precursors to a more severe wave of shoplifting as more people lose jobs, don't have money to pay for basic things and just get desperate. These are definately interesting times and I think they'll just get more interesting.

reply to post by Jb0311NY


Perfect point and a great post. This is the manner in which all store security should be accomplished and it should be the idiotic bean counters at Wall Mart business to see that its cost effective and a safer way to handle the problem. But, since old Sam Walton isn't around anymore, and his greedy kids are running the show, they don't have to have a moral responsibility to handle it in a smart manner!
Zindo

reply to post by Jb0311NY


LMAO y'all are funny!! Made coffee exit my nose
I had always thought it was because of the moose, bears and wolverines Oh my!
But now I have to wonder h'mm

Originally posted by whitewave
This is another terrible tragedy that is becoming all too common. I understand people's frustration and/or willingness to help prevent crimes but this is over the top.

Wrestling people to the ground is waaaaayyyy outside their job description and for which they have no training or credentialing.

Good thing Wal-Mart quit selling guns or the employees may have just blown the guy away instead, eh? *sarcasm off*

I think if some pimple-faced, minimum waged vigilante tried to exercise "street justice" on me in the Wal-Mart parking lot, I would do my very best to put them in the hospital.

No charges filed? No case? It's assault and battery at the very least. Homicide at the worst.

THE MAN WAS MAKING HIS GETAWAY AFTER SHOPLIFTING! The store employees had every right to detain him. I would not turn my back while somebody steals and tries to get away with it.

Originally posted by Jb0311NY

LOL Hey I'll call my bud Horatio up. He works for CSI Miami...

Nah, I don't like that one. It's got to be either CSI or NCIS. I'd be open to seeing an Alaskan-based one though. Maybe a no-nonsense, maverick with her own line of catch-phrases?

Can anyone answer my question about 2nd degree murder?

Originally posted by Merriman Weir

Originally posted by Jb0311NY

LOL Hey I'll call my bud Horatio up. He works for CSI Miami...

Nah, I don't like that one. It's got to be either CSI or NCIS. I'd be open to seeing an Alaskan-based one though. Maybe a no-nonsense, maverick with her own line of catch-phrases?

Pick me, pick me!
Wait, lemme put on my shubarus first so I can run through the bush.

I'd love to see one based here too. Oh the possibilities.

Originally posted by groingrinder

Originally posted by whitewave
This is another terrible tragedy that is becoming all too common. I understand people's frustration and/or willingness to help prevent crimes but this is over the top.

Wrestling people to the ground is waaaaayyyy outside their job description and for which they have no training or credentialing.

Good thing Wal-Mart quit selling guns or the employees may have just blown the guy away instead, eh? *sarcasm off*

I think if some pimple-faced, minimum waged vigilante tried to exercise "street justice" on me in the Wal-Mart parking lot, I would do my very best to put them in the hospital.

No charges filed? No case? It's assault and battery at the very least. Homicide at the worst.

THE MAN WAS MAKING HIS GETAWAY AFTER SHOPLIFTING! The store employees had every right to detain him. I would not turn my back while somebody steals and tries to get away with it.

No sir. Actually you have no right to ARREST some one, and that is what they did. You cannot "Detain" in the legal form. It is unlawful to hold someone against their will, even if they commited the crime of shoplifting. If an assault happen's, where a PERSON was physically touched it is the operating procedere to Intervene between them, but still you may not arrest the person.
Only when, you cross the level of UP TO AND INCLUDING deadly force.. If the person has a Box Cutter, and has previously used it on someone and NOT PROPERTY you may Arrest him buy using force.

I'll post up the legal Definition's if it will help clarify the law, or what is Morally correct.

I do see how you might feel that it is Morally correct to Arrest someone for stealing even if you don't represent the law. This is not the law though, you observe and report, and then get a coffe knowing you fufilled your moral obligation.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


Murder: Second degree

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. At a stoplight the next day, Dan sees Victor riding in the passenger seat of a nearby car. Dan pulls out a gun and fires three shots into the car, missing Victor but killing the driver of the car.

I belive it is First degree murder!!! They should be tried by the law, and hopefully they don't have Cheney's lawyer!!!

Originally posted by Jb0311NY

I understand the escalation of force starting with verbal commands, which is the extent of my moral and Job obligation's. I understand the end is deadly force, which I fully understand what it entitle's, and I would only use to save a life.

Let's all set a high moral standard for our fellow man, never failing to set a higher one than the last.

Ooh Rah

Thank you for having sanity! This is exactly how I feel about this tragedy. Why did walmart employees feel it necessary to engage this man at all? They have cameras blanketing their entire stores + parking lots, they should have left it as a police matter.

Every single person who had an act in detaining him should be charged for his murder. There is no way $300 worth of # is worth someone's life. This poor fellow probably just fell on bad times. He could have simply forgotten to pay. And even if he intentionally stole the goods, shoplifting does not illicit lethal force!

I am afraid that walmart's record of attracting the poorest of shoppers, combined with the economic difficulties we are facing, walmarts may become something of a free-for-all in the future. Especially with the completely lax security and gung-ho employees who are itching to take the law into their own hands. I am not wealthy by any means, but I will not be shopping at walmart any time in the near future.

Originally posted by Jb0311NY
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

Murder: Second degree

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. At a stoplight the next day, Dan sees Victor riding in the passenger seat of a nearby car. Dan pulls out a gun and fires three shots into the car, missing Victor but killing the driver of the car.

I belive it is First degree murder!!! They should be tried by the law, and hopefully they don't have Cheney's lawyer!!!

I don't know, the dangerous conduct and lack of concern seems a fair fit. I doubt these people were really trained in restraint &c. and didn't seem that arsed about the man's welfare, just protecting those precious $393 worth of goods.

Just for a slightly different (and perhaps more knowledgeable) perspective, my husband (who works in the Tire & Lube Express at a Walmart) tells me that what those employees did is strictly AGAINST Walmart policy. Employees are not supposed to attempt to confront or detain shoplifters, they are supposed to report a suspected shoplifter to management, or engage the shoplifter in pleasant conversation (like, "May I help you find something?" or "Are you finding everything you need today?") in order to potentially make them nervous and hopefully put the stuff back on their own.

Again, Walmart management and Walmart rules state that employees are NOT to confront, detain, or otherwise interfere with shoplifters, and doing so is grounds for dismissal. The workers who detained and killed Mr. Donovan did so on their own initiative and AGAINST what they'd been taught and told to do by their management.

Certainly Walmart has its flaws and problems, but in this instance it is the individuals who took inappropriate action who should be blamed, not the company.

reply to post by Jb0311NY

Originally posted by Jb0311NY
No sir. Actually you have no right to ARREST some one, and that is what they did. You cannot "Detain" in the legal form. It is unlawful to hold someone against their will, even if they commited the crime of shoplifting. If an assault happen's, where a PERSON was physically touched it is the operating procedere to Intervene between them, but still you may not arrest the person.

Well then, all those shoplifters that are detained every day by store security have been illegally detained, eh? And all the other criminals that have been detained by regular citizens have been illegally detained also?

Citizen's arrest is a myth, huh?

I don't think so. Detention is perfectly legal if there is no transportation.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


Great point's,
but multiple assailent's mean escalation of force exhibited, and multiple assailent's does entitle you to use deadly force in defense. This mean's you may use hand hand to hand combat techniques, muscular gouge's,(pressure points) less than lethal weapon's. If Life or vision is in question deadly weapons can be used.

This being said, the multiplication of member's involved in the crime means it was an action capable of being intervened with, it wasn't. It IS 1st degree murder..... I forgive them, it is social manipulation from the rich Elite, the NWO which has led them to having deminished morality. They need to see the law, sure. But mabye prison isn't the solution, nor is death.
Lets leave my fruity philosophy to another thread though.

1st degree, so say's me. Thoose with lesser opion from which I decree
lol tee hee hee

Maybe he shouldn't have shoplifted? He most likely died of a heart attack or a heart problem caused by the thrill of being caught.

Don't blame Wal-Mart.


What if the same thing happened at a mom and pop shop? Kid steals 400 bucks worth of mom goods and pop puts the stop on the kid?

Same deal.

Originally posted by jsobecky
reply to post by Jb0311NY

 

Originally posted by Jb0311NY
No sir. Actually you have no right to ARREST some one, and that is what they did. You cannot "Detain" in the legal form. It is unlawful to hold someone against their will, even if they commited the crime of shoplifting. If an assault happen's, where a PERSON was physically touched it is the operating procedere to Intervene between them, but still you may not arrest the person.

Well then, all those shoplifters that are detained every day by store security have been illegally detained, eh? And all the other criminals that have been detained by regular citizens have been illegally detained also?

Citizen's arrest is a myth, huh?

I don't think so. Detention is perfectly legal if there is no transportation.

Fine point's sir, and I respect where they come from. You have a good heart. The law for the United States as I understand it says you cant do it unless a felony is happening with harmful intent to person's
United States

Each state with the exception of North Carolina permits citizen arrests if the commission of felony is witnessed by the arresting citizen, or when a citizen is asked to assist in the apprehension of a suspect by police. The application of state laws varies widely with respect to misdemeanors, breaches of the peace, and felonies not witnessed by the arresting party. American citizens do not carry the authority or enjoy the legal protections of police, and are held to the principle of strict liability before the courts of civil- and criminal law including but not limited to any infringement of another's rights.[24]

Though North Carolina General Statutes have no provision for citizen's arrests, detention by private persons is permitted and apply to both civilians and police officers outside their jurisdiction.[25]

Detention, being different from an arrest in the fact that a detainee may not be transported without consent, is permitted where probable cause exists that one has committed a felony, breach of peace, physical injury to another person, or theft or destruction of property.

Now FL I belive will allow you to be sued if you Arrest someone unlawfully.

Entertain me with info!!!!

Originally posted by Jb0311NY
Ethically is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family? Or someone else's family? .... What if I stole some Plastic from walmart to feed YOUR family, because my friend, I surley WOULD.

Lol, well, pretty sure this guy wasn't stealin' a loaf of bread to feed his family, if he were, man the economy is a lot worse than I thought, a loaf of bread for $393?

Also, I sure am glad my family doesn't eat plastic, so no need to steal some plastic to feed my family.

Stealing is wrong no matter who it's from, with that said I think my bit torrents just finished downloading.

But seriously, if the guy was stealin' a little food to feed his family, then I personally would let him go, but if it's an Xbox or something that really doesn't benefit his family, then I think he needs to be stopped, one person (two at the most) could have restrained him whilst authorities arrived, but a whole crowd of folks is a little much.

-Lahara

Let's see $393 worth of goods stolen. Probably manufactured in China for 5-10 dollars by slave laborers, prison labor, with no worker protection or environmental protections.

Walmart has a long record of insisting that any manufacturer that wants to sell to their products to Walmart must make their goods in China. They have set up an elaborate operation to "steal" American jobs!

Therefore US companies shut down their operations and literally fork lift the US equipment to China and set up operations. Remember this is because Walmart insists they do that in order to sell their goods in Walmart stores!

Now comparitively speaking exactly WHO is stealing from WHOM???

Originally posted by Jb0311NY
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

Great point's,
but multiple assailent's mean escalation of force exhibited, and multiple assailent's does entitle you to use deadly force in defense. This mean's you may use hand hand to hand combat techniques, muscular gouge's,(pressure points) less than lethal weapon's. If Life or vision is in question deadly weapons can be used.

This being said, the multiplication of member's involved in the crime means it was an action capable of being intervened with, it wasn't. It IS 1st degree murder..... I forgive them, it is social manipulation from the rich Elite, the NWO which has led them to having deminished morality. They need to see the law, sure. But mabye prison isn't the solution, nor is death.
Lets leave my fruity philosophy to another thread though.

1st degree, so say's me. Thoose with lesser opion from which I decree
lol tee hee hee

Being British, I'm certainly not declaring myself as being overly familiar with American laws, never mind any kind of expert, but doesn't first degree murder usually suggest that it was pre-meditated? I can't see the pre-meditation angle here.

Originally posted by Leo Strauss


Walmart has a long record of insisting that any manufacturer that wants to sell to their products to Walmart must make their goods in China. They have set up an elaborate operation to "steal" American jobs!

So are you saying that everything in Wal-Mart is made in China or at least, most of it? That is simply not true.

It also has nothing to do with the topic.