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Victims? Is it karma? Is this karma? Is this the will of God?

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posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 01:00 AM
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I am having a dilema and not sure what to make of it, firstly, I don't know whether it is just a case of being brought up in a Christian home or just simply trying to understand some bad things that happened to me when I was a child.

I can't shake these thoughts. I realise that a lot of what I am going to explain maybe dysfunctional... so I apologise.

In a religious context, we are born into sin, thus what ever happens to us is our own fault. An eye for an eye etc. I was punished with sexual abuse as a child, fact. I believe this happened to me because I deserved it. Like it happened so I must have deserved it. Why else did it happen?

Now, what if I were a whore before I was born? We all know God hates whores. Obviously things happened because God wanted me to be punished for being a whore? I mean when I was called that, I was only five but why would that happen? How do I make sense of that?

God punishes people, the biggest issue for me now is that the person who did this has been arrested and it is to go to court. But, what if he was doing what God wanted him to do? I had a nightmare recently where I was in walking around in heaven and he was sitting with God.

I was very disturbed by it. Then I reviewed it and considered that maybe in a child's understanding, God is her Father? Well, if that dream is anything to go by, the truth is the person who did this was at one stage a friend of my Fathers. So perhaps that is all it means?

The other thing when we consider philosophy, buddhism...that teaches us that we sow then reap -> Karma.

Maybe this is my karma? OMG I am freaking out here. Really. I don't know how to comprehend this.

The other thing is people say, just accept whatever happens and do not question it. Perhaps that is where I have gone wrong. Maybe I need to just accept whatever happens, like the buddhists do and not question anything?

If this is karma or the will of God... that means I am not a victim, it means I deserved what happened to me.





posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 01:20 AM
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Originally posted by Thurisaz
In a religious context, we are born into sin, thus what ever happens to us is our own fault. An eye for an eye etc. I was punished with sexual abuse as a child, fact. I believe this happened to me because I deserved it. Like it happened so I must have deserved it. Why else did it happen?


First of all, I'm sorry this happened to you. No child deserves abuse of any kind, especially sexual abuse.

Which is my second point: you didn't deserve what happened to you. I say this as a believer raised in a Christian home. What happened to you was the sinful and criminal act of a sick individual. And yes, that makes you the victim of a crime. But that being said, you don't have to remain that victim, or thinking of yourself as a victim.

How such an act fits into God's will, I have no idea. That is something I don't understand and struggle with.

I know some Christians would point out John 9:1-3 where the disciples question Jesus about a man born blind. They ask him if he is blind because of his sin or his parents' sin. Jesus responds he wasn't born blind because of anyone's sin, but because God wanted to do a wonderful work through him. Jesus then heals the man.

I don't think it's my place to say God is going to do a wonderful work through this situation you've endured (that's always sounded like a condescending response to give to someone who has endured trauma). I mean, I hope He does, but mostly, above all else, I hope you find peace and well-being and healing despite the wrong done to you. I hope you will take the thoughts and concerns you've posted here and seek the help of a professional who can walk with you as you process what happened.

[edit on 12/6/08 by GirlNextDoor]



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 01:32 AM
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I think karma exist basically, not because a force that punishes us and rewards us is real, but because good and bad things are bound to happen to everyone in this world unless you are unrealistically lucky. You can call it karma or the will of God if you wish, but it is simply a part of reality. Lots of bad things have happened through out history, many of those things happened to good or innocent people. If this is the will of a higher power they will gain no respect from me for doling out such heinous punishment. Which is probably why characters like Satan exist, so some of the blame is shifted off of supposedly loving Gods.



[edit on 6-12-2008 by rapinbatsisaltherage]



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 02:01 AM
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I won't go too heavily into things, but I wanted to respond at least a little bit into the psychology of what's happening to you...

Reading what you wrote, immediately what came to my mind is, "Who has convinced you that what happened to you is your fault?" That raises the question of, if your abuser told you such things, OR if yur parents/whoever has, through trying to deny its happening, has blamed you for it.

I have seen exactly that happen in my years on earth, many times over. The child is abused by someone in the family, and when telling of what has happened, their parents/grandparents/whatever will blame the child, because they do not want to believe that the family member could do such a thing. And that is devastating to a child.

Without going into details, is such a thing possible in this case with you? In either case, I would recommend the best course of action is to get into some therapy to help work out a lot of this guilt and blaming self-loathing that you have going on. In no way, shape, or form is abuse of a child karmic, nor appropriate, and anyone who claims so is simply doing it for their own sick perversions.

In either case, the fault is not yours.


I'll add also that anyone from a religious point of view who tries to claim it is, is sociopathic and needs serious help, themselves.

The blame is not yours, and you need, really need, to get that into yourself.



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 02:22 AM
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Let me add a couple of footnotes to what I wrote above, as well, and see if it can help you any.


Over the years that I have lived, I have seen many abuse victims, sexually and physically, emotionally and verbally. All of them are basically the same, to be honest, at their core, because they are all based on the same thing...

Power.

People who become abusers get addicted to power, and most fo the time, the victim that they go to will be a child, because they are the most vulnerable. But it is only to feed their power need, and the target doesn't matter to them in the end. They will do it to whomever they think they can get away with.


One of the things I think you might be experiencing is a form of the stockholm syndrome. Normally it's related to captor/hostage situations, but I've seen the same effects happen in abuse victims, as well. The pain and wracking emotions that they carry from the abuse is so deep for some, that to face it becomes a true nightmare. They will, at that point, start to blame themselves for the abuse, and at that point, they become even more victimized.

It's a vicious circle, because ones the cycle starts, it perpetuates itself into deeper depths.

It seems to me from the post that you made, and granted I do not know the full history of you or anything, but the wordings are there... it seems to me that you're really down that path. You are finding any means you can to blame YOURSELF for the abuse, and not the one who did it to you. In fact, you've gotten yourself so deep into the syndrome, that you are nearly deifying the person who did it to you, putting them right near God and all.

Do you see the problem there, my friend?

Now, I am not going to downplay things or anything by saying this, do not get me wrong, but you really need to just stop for a moment and get AWAY from the circular thoughts, and give yourself a break. You're doing yourself great harm, and the person who did this to you, seriously, would be laughing, knowing that you've gotten so far into their control and power. It's precicely what they want.



Again, I will make this clear. This is NOT karma, this is NOT God, this is NOT some original sin or ANYTHING of that nature. It is you having been the victim of a devastating crime, enacted by a depraved person, for the purpose of destroying you. See it for what it truly is, dear friend, and break that circle.


I know you do not know me, but i can really feel you, and just wanted to say, in all seriousness... I am sending a huge hug your way with all the love i can muster.



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 03:11 AM
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This thread is a prime example of why I feel sorry for the religious. Instead of simply realizing and accepting the fact there are some screwed up people in the world, you wonder if you somehow deserved it, merely because of the Christian notion of the existence of sin.

Come now. I am VERY VERY sorry what happened to you, but do you honestly think that, assuming there is a benevolent God, he would let that happen to you? Especially as a child, who had done no true "wrong"?

Put on your big girl hat, and think critically about it. I mean, perhaps it is normal for abuse victims to wonder if they somehow deserved it, and perhaps I am being far too objective, but come now. Get real.

"You are a victim. Your abuser is sick. You did not deserve it. It was CHANCE."

Repeat that (obviously changing "You" to "I", and the relevant grammar, as needed) until you understand.

As for Karma (and your implied notion of reincarnation), I am of the opinion that if you were a "promiscuous" "lady" in a past life, and (somehow, contradictorily) subscribed to the idea of Sin, you will not be reborn into a innocent young girl's body. You will be punished with a less than desirable body.

[edit on 12/6/2008 by prototism]

[edit on 12/6/2008 by prototism]

[edit on 12/6/2008 by prototism]



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 03:46 AM
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Through many years of meditation, what I have been shown is that the Creator does not hate anything. The Creator is everything. This is, all part of that same consciousness. Karma is the way but not as we think it is.

Understand that what the Creator is looking for is experiences. As part of that consciousness, ours is only to experience. We aren't meant to hold on to those experiences for any longer than it takes to learn the lesson given. Creating trauma out of experience is pathological. It's why we're all so sick. We choose to hold on rather than giving ourselves to that experience completely and learning what it's about. That's why we view karma as we do. The worst (experiences) that can be dealt loses a great deal of its power when viewed in this way. That is why we aspire to the christ consciousness. We aren't meant to judge or create any other attachment to events. You're meant to view, to experience and to accept all that comes with the same fearlessness.

If you want to change traumas to experiences, lose the fear of them. Don't let them own you or mold what you are. You are what you are. You own those experiences. Lose the fear and replace it with love, in the way of the christ consciousness - not in the way of religion.



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 03:53 AM
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reply to post by CosmicEgg
 


does that mean I am supposed to love the person who did this?

What is the lesson here? If you can tell me what it is, then perhaps I will be half way there... cos I honestly don't know what the lesson is.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Originally posted by prototism

"You are a victim. Your abuser is sick. You did not deserve it.


That is what my counsellor says. (I stopped going) Society shouts out this. They bang the victim drum... what if in a past life, I did the very same thing to someone... ?

But spiritually, the victim drum does not negate the feelings I have. I wonder what buddhism would offer up? OMG I might write a letter to the HHDL, just to see what he might say.


As for Karma (and your implied notion of reincarnation), I am of the opinion that if you were a "promiscuous" "lady" in a past life, and (somehow, contradictorily) subscribed to the idea of Sin, you will not be reborn into a innocent young girl's body. You will be punished with a less than desirable body.


Thank you for your thoughts here, it does help to consider this, but it is all uncertain.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Originally posted by Jomina
Without going into details, is such a thing possible in this case with you?


Yes absolutely! Logically and rationally, I can see this is 'classic text book' But it is such a deep feeling inside of me and I can't shake it. I feel responsible. And your right, family makes it worse



In either case, I would recommend the best course of action is to get into some therapy to help work out a lot of this guilt and blaming self-loathing that you have going on.


I have had therapy and they say the same thing. But its so deep. I just get angry when I am told that.

Maybe I want someone to tell me it is my fault. Maybe I want the therapist to say, yes it is your fault. Cos way down deep, I feel like it has to be my fault because it happened.

[edit on 6-12-2008 by Thurisaz]



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 04:59 AM
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In some circumstances karma explained, has been used on purpose to isolate and silence, to further the victim's torture and non validation in the spiritual world. It has been for some of us the final blow - total suffocation of our will, extreme sadness and anger eating away forever at our once perfectly attuned spirit. People's perceptions of the meaning of Karma have been fabricated for them conveniently, I violate you in this life time -
ey, you can always come back at me in the next - they think - no problem after all this is a credit and dept civilization. New Agers have been marketing the stuff(Karma) making alot of money with this borrowed excuse for the suffering we endure, and actually empowering the perps by making them feel entitled and even purposefull. I see its the end of the game and I've calculated the damages and consequences of the total supression of my Dharma in this lifetime and the collective sadistic ego fund - owes me ruffly a quindecillon. Pay up



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 05:30 AM
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Originally posted by HulaAnglers
In some circumstances karma explained, has been used on purpose to isolate and silence, to further the victim's torture and non validation in the spiritual world. It has been for some of us the final blow - total suffocation of our will, extreme sadness and anger eating away forever at our once perfectly attuned spirit. People's perceptions of the meaning of Karma have been fabricated for them conveniently, I violate you in this life time -
ey, you can always come back at me in the next - they think - no problem after all this is a credit and dept civilization. New Agers have been marketing the stuff(Karma) making alot of money with this borrowed excuse for the suffering we endure, and actually empowering the perps by making them feel entitled and even purposefull. I see its the end of the game and I've calculated the damages and consequences of the total supression of my Dharma in this lifetime and the collective sadistic ego fund - owes me ruffly a quindecillon. Pay up


omg I had never thought of it that way... I will print that off because that is gold.

What a twist!


oh I gave you a star but I would give you more if I could... I have never ever considered what you have written...definitely gives me food for thought.

I just read your other post in satan is not lucifer and what you had to say there... I think one of the steps, something like take revenge instead of turning the cheek was great. oops, how unChristian of me... but ....

[edit on 6-12-2008 by Thurisaz]



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 05:53 AM
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reply to post by Thurisaz
 


I calculated my worth at one dollar at birth, than simply added a zero for every year of my life that was sabotaged, 1+ 48 zeros= a quindecillion. Its people like you that inspire me the courage to continue to LOVE and not be afraid to confront and protect. I send you a big cosmic hug. You are so not alone



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 05:59 AM
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I suppose that compassion is too far from your comprehension.

I don't really know what to say. You perpetuate your own torture by holding onto any "injustice" that was perpetrated. Maybe you were that perp in a past life. That's (part of) the nature of karma. Maybe what you live now is to teach you how your victim felt in the past.

Does that teach you compassion at all?

Edit to state that no condescension was intended there. None of us walk through life unscathed. Only you can choose to hold onto pain and keep the wound open, likewise only you can choose to let it go and simply feel the experience, and grow from it.

[edit on 6/12/2008 by CosmicEgg]



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 06:08 AM
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Originally posted by CosmicEgg
Does that teach you compassion at all?


yes, absolutely. NO question about that.
perhaps that is a lesson?

You can't understand anothers pain unless you experience it... so yes, I understand that could be the lesson.

Everything happens for a reason... I try to live by that analogy but it brings many questions with it.

I do try to take the higher road with everything I do. But with some things, that is a hard thing to do.

I really liked what you had to say about God experiencing everything... so perhaps this is just something to experience. I can accept that but my emotions have a hard time with it.




posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 06:26 AM
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reply to post by Thurisaz
 


That's why the Native Americans had their saying about walking a mile in another man's moccasins. That's exactly right.

We reincarnate until we have all learned all of life's lessons about living in these three material dimensions. We live, experience (all the pleasant and all the painful), and then we die only to come back again for more tests of faith, hope, love and charity. Compassion is the goal. Once you can look at every injustice done to you (and those you do to others) with an equally grateful heart, you will have made great progress spiritually.

Think about this situation here with the OP's sexual abuse. Think what kind of intimacy there has to be between the OP and her abuser, on the soul level. Think about the contract being made before this incarnation that they would engage in this sort of experience. It's not something you agree to with just anyone. And now remember that we all do that with all of our experiences. "You teach me this and I'll teach you that" and so on and so on for all time. Can you really want to carry all that weight with you? Take the lesson - exclusively - with you and leave the rest. It's all beside the point. It's like keeping all the wrappings from each and every thing you buy or are given all through your life. You'd be inundated with garbage so that the item/gift has no place in your life. It's all just more rubbish. Soon enough you don't want to learn anymore because you can't find the lessons anyway.

Take only the gift. That's all that matters.



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 06:26 AM
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Originally posted by Thurisaz
...I don't know whether it is just a case of being brought up in a Christian home...I was punished with sexual abuse as a child


If you were punished with sexual abuse then I would say: no! You were most definitely not brought up in a Christian home. I imagine Christ wept every time you were abused.

God allowed it because he gave everyone a free will. Your abuser was free to do whatever they liked and unfortunately chose an extremely depraved path.

You also have a free will and now you have choices..
A) Carry on being a victim by letting the abuser have power over you by reliving it in your mind constantly.
B) Perpetrate your own crime by getting even and taking revenge
C) Become unstable and do the same thing to your own children one day.
D) Acknowledge that you now have the ability to help others in a similar situation. Your experience means that you can understand and encourage other victims.

I should also mention that your choices will affect those around you. Making the right choice will be inspirational.



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 07:09 AM
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OP I think you are mixing up your religious philosophies here. You are referring to Buddhism but using the Hindu definition of Karma (i.e. paying for deeds in a past life).

Buddhism is about acceptance and chance. Buddhists believe an “evil person”, a murderer for example, can change his way of thinking and reach enlightenment in one lifetime if he chooses to do so (in other worlds not bound by any laws of Karma but capable of moving past it all by sheer will). Buddhists see personal actions/thoughts as leading to happiness or unhappiness, but it is more from a mental perspective than a physical one. The Buddhists see life as constantly changing and very temporary, and the good/bad stuff that happens to us should be transcended mentally, in other words see past the crap in this life and focus on the eternal. Easier said than done in many cases.

Hindu’s believe in the “wheel of karma” which dictates the path of multiple lifetimes. People’s experiences and hardships in this lifetime are affected by the good or bad karma of previous lifetimes. Keep in mind Hindu’s have also had a very strict caste system, which fits in nicely with that theory (the untouchable class is in that position because of their past life karma! Whereas the Brahams, the highest class deserve there place for the same reason. See…makes perfect sense why some are born privileged and others not.).

The Christians do not believe in Karma at all (the worst sinner can be saved in an instant). The christians tend to talk about "everything has a lesson, a meaning, God's plan, etc..." The "lesson" construct seems to come as a result of believing an all-knowing all seeing loving fatherly God allows stuff to happen, therefore there must be a "lesson" in it (otherwise it would just be perverse coming from a loving father figure).

[edit on 6-12-2008 by Sonya610]



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 07:17 AM
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Originally posted by CosmicEgg
I suppose that compassion is too far from your comprehension.

I don't really know what to say. You perpetuate your own torture by holding onto any "injustice" that was perpetrated. Maybe you were that perp in a past life. That's (part of) the nature of karma. Maybe what you live now is to teach you how your victim felt in the past.

Does that teach you compassion at all?



[edit on 6/12/2008 by CosmicEgg]


I have enough compassion and empathy to put my foot down when I experience or witness injustice for myself and others, My moral nature is really strong, my understanding of your question makes me wonder how much compassion do you expect me to have, lets see - if you were being assaulted should I not intervene cause you probably deserve it from a previous life and when its over should I run to your assailants to see if they are ok - or should I just pray for you - you see it is this veil over your conscience that is keeping you on the fence. I invite you to walk in your own shoes now , to see just how hoplessly we are all constantly being manipulated. I am not afraid, I am proud of my integrity and contempt.

[edit on 6-12-2008 by HulaAnglers]



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 08:57 AM
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reply to post by HulaAnglers
 


I'm afraid then you don't understand the nature of either compassion nor empathy. Let me try to explain. Empathy is, in a nutshell, feeling what others feel. Compassion more so. But when you get to the core of compassion, it is something so profound that you see everyone's perspective from everyone else's perspective. At that point you realize that there is no good and no evil. Things simply are what they are. You can't judge, therefore you can't take action, therefore you experience the experience from a point of total detachment but with the deepest love.

You are still functioning from the point of being very human, of wanting to alleviate others' pain. That's very admirable in its own way. But you can't do it for everyone. You shouldn't either. Everyone are entitled to make their own mistakes. You don't have the right to deny them that learning experience. You know the part in the Bible where it says that God is a jealous god? That's exactly what it means. Change the perceptive value of the word "jealous" only a bit and you end up with "over-protective", correct? What if God was so overly protective that we weren't allowed to learn and experience things? What about a mother who puts a crash helmet on her baby's head as it's learning to crawl? How will that baby learn not to bump into things if it never hurts? What if we responded to others' pain with celebration and congratulation rather than remorse and shame?

Think about things on a deeper level. Things are not at all as they seem.



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 11:41 AM
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reply to post by Thurisaz
 




We all know God hates whores.


I don't know where to begin

my beliefs are probably very different from yours (mostly because they are still a work in progress) - and I have no intention of challenging your beliefs

there are as many different opinions about what god is or isn't (or whether he/she/it even IS or ISN'T) as there are people - it's just that simple - and just that confusing

I do want to challenge you - but only in one significant way - I would ask only that you try to consider the opinions of other people (or actual demands) about what god is or isn't with a grain of salt

because the simple truth is - no one knows

no one knows what he is - no one knows IF he is - nobody understands the why of any of it

understand this one thing - and you can begin to solve your own problem - and maybe even heal

it has nothing to do with abandoning your faith - but questioning your faith is most definitely allowed - you should consider that if there is a god - he gave you the ability to question for a reason

if there is no god - you still have that same abiliity - no difference

people will argue that they know - they will swear that they know - they will threaten you with that "knowledge"

but no one knows any more than you do

therefore - you're opinion is just as valid - just as honest - just as meaningful as any other single person, or group's opinion on this planet - or any other planet for that matter

my opinion should be meaningless to you as well :-)

but, here's my opinion:

God does not hate whores - and if you are a Christian - and you do have faith - then it's a no brainer - Jesus hung out with the whores, and the criminals - and all the other flotsam and jetsam of humanity - for a reason

it's the regular old run of the mill - fallible, confused, judgemental - idiot humans that hate anybody - and they - WE - all have our reasons - however indefensible those reasons might be

so - my point is (you might be wondering) even if you were a whore in a previous lifetime - god could give a rats ass

there's not a one of us that can explain why a loving god would allow the horrors that we endure in this life to even exist

so, there's a perfectly good reason for why so many have decided he doesn't exist

if you do believe in karma - you should understand that it's as much about learning and progressing as anything else - not retribution and punishment

which brings me to this:

you are in charge of you

your thoughts, emotions, beliefs, choices - all yours

I've known people in my life - male and female - who have been through what you have - and it's caused them a world of suffering - and I have seen first hand how they struggle with this - so there's no easy solution or answer I know of to relieve you of your pain

but, I do know that the minute you step back a bit from yourself - and allow yourself to look at this from your own point of view - without the din of humanity in your ear - you might be able to see the reality of this situation for what it is

the abuse you suffered was a crime - nothing less

it was a crime - committed by someone else - not you

it was a crime committed against you

you are blameless

_______________________________

edit to add:

the Buddhists question - you can believe that

I've never seen so much contemplating in my life :-)


[edit on 12/6/2008 by Spiramirabilis]



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 12:02 PM
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CosmicEgg, my son never hurt himself on my shift. I have peripheral vision as well as an inate sence of pace, Anyway - Who are you to distort what I a'm expressing here, and dare you justify dangerous sadistic behavior with your bible thumpping. What did you not get in my thoughts on karma. IT'S ENOUGH! - Revenge, killing, administrating torture... not an option for some of us(although at a critical point the thought of revenge may be appealing) unfortunately, we just don't have the Evil gene - Life has been hijacked, All it has become is a cheap business, and please tell me when your god is going to finally devour the strong! La criss de paix callice!





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