Was Judas the Traitor a Good Guy, While Paul the Apostle a Bad One?

The saying "Do not judge another man until you've walked a mile in his shoes" really applys here.

Say we're hanging out, and I tell you something spectacular about myself. I am "The Son Of God", and you say "okay whatever", but you still hang out because the party is a flowing. You have your inner established "signs" events you expect to see. Just as Judas did. However when you fail to see these events, you start to doubt. As Judas did.

Judas was sorry, that was reflected by Paul's telling, he could have been forgiven.

When I was a kid , I read the writings of St. Paul and I can remember thinking that he seemed to be advocating and teaching things , diametrically opposed to the teachings and examples set down by Jesus. It took the rulings of Constantine and the ramblings of Augustine to complete the sabotage.

[edit on 9-12-2008 by aethernaut]

reply to post by aethernaut


Yes but that's a dark view of things! Can't you see?

Let's assume you can see the "true meaning" of the teaching of Jesus.

Then Paul did his Job! His teachings, although spun, sent the "message" to the masses.

And it is of your statement that you've recieved the message of Jesus regardless of the delivery!

reply to post by MatrixProphet


I've really never been a very good reader, so, reading the bible over and over didn't really clue me in on much more than boredom. As for the bizarre and allegedly delusional part that went with it, was as if the third testament from various supernatural forces. (incredible Truman show effects) I was led to believe that their is a matrix to the bible and it is actually a computer program. Bright lights have been associated with several encounters in the bible it seems. Satan allegedly also being one?

If 'One' is able to do false or real miracles, than how could we conclude they are not of the same person and agenda?

This site mentions conspiracies in religion, just as there is a conspiracy in heaven and heavenly bodies? The Holy spirit? The Holy Grey: L ? Just sayin'

I'm just waitng for the next act and performance to begin.

reply to post by Incarnated

correction : I received the political and social teachings of Jesus , from the words highlighted as being-HIS . Paul , just sort of pissed me off.

reply to post by aethernaut

When I was a kid , I read the writings of St. Paul and I can remember thinking that he seemed to be advocating and teaching things , diametrically opposed to the teachings and examples set down by Jesus. It took the rulings of Constantine and the ramblings of Augustine to complete the sabotage.

Yes, and it takes modern day sleuths to figure this out and to connect the dots with the Bible and how it was intended to be understood.

Paul , just sort of pissed me off.

Ditto!!


[edit on 10-12-2008 by MatrixProphet]

reply to post by aleon1018

If 'One' is able to do false or real miracles, than how could we conclude they are not of the same person and agenda?

This site mentions conspiracies in religion, just as there is a conspiracy in heaven and heavenly bodies? The Holy spirit? The Holy Grey: L ? Just sayin'

I'm just waitng for the next act and performance to begin.

I do think that they are all on the same team. We have a choice and an opportunity to try to understand "Why?" and get to an accurate understanding and then realize that it may be entirely different than we thought!

But isn't that how many mysteries work? Most give up and don't try to understand while others tear apart what is available and attempt to make some sense of it all. This is why it makes sense to me to view it as a mystery novel. It falls together easier.

Thanks for your posts!

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

Megiddo has been the site of numerous battles throughout history, with the site changing hands many times. Three of the more famous battles include:

* Battle of Megiddo (15th century BC): fought between the armies of the Egyptian pharaoh Thutmose III and a large Canaanite coalition led by the rulers of Megiddo and Kadesh; this is the first documented battle in recorded history.
* Battle of Megiddo (609 BC): fought between Egypt and the Kingdom of Judah, in which King Josiah fell.
* Battle of Megiddo (1918): fought during World War I between Allied troops, led by General Edmund Allenby, and the defending Ottoman army.

Hence, figuratively and literally it is a place of war that can symbolically represent the world.

But....is it taking place as we were taught or are there significant differences? Or could it actually be a natural occurrence that changes and shifts the world and its people?

reply to post by Incarnated


Jesus' Message:

as illustrated below: 'get out my temple, moneychangers! hypocrites! greedheads!'




Paul's Version:

I dont know what to think just because its on a site doesn't means its true in the world. I still believe Judas as the betrayer of Jesus, and i do know that Judas felt ashamed his doing. And even through the money back. But Jesus still said that it was better for him not to have been born.


Second I do believe Paul as a righteous man. His beginning was not good. But he changed. But I do believe that there are scripture most in the new testament that are questioning at the least.

reply to post by slymattb


yes, I understand what you are saying and how you must feel. I was there once myself!

Hold on to your beliefs until God shows you otherwise.

We were talking earlier of Sophia and I thought I would add this from The Gnostic Society Library in my own words (excuse it if I translated it incorrectly in any way!):

Once upon a time there was a land called Chaos but Chaos was not the first creation. It came out of the land of Shadow (darkness), and out of this came matter.

In this land were many divinities that would leave a legacy of characteristics that would be known as: Faith, Wisdom, Jealously etc. Some of these entities gave birth to others and they would form a big family of divinities.

Early on; Pistis made herself known and her mark would be Faith. She gave birth to Wisdom (Sophia) and the two would often work together. Sophia would become the veil that would separate the heavens from the earth, and mankind from the heavens.

Pistis lived in her realm of light. And she would make visits outside of her realm and check everything out. Well, she realized that Shadow was envious because there was something stronger than it. Matter came oozing out of Chaos and she decided to blow this matter everywhere!

Out of this would appear a ruler or a new prime parent: Yaltabaoth. He would use spirit to create a footstool that he would call earth. He then went on to create all the heavens with the earth. He then had sons and one of them was called: Astaphaios. He created heavens for each of his offspring so there came to be 7 heavens and 7 forces.

Now, each one of his offspring had a female name and a male name. Astaphaios had the female name of Sophia. All of them were androgynous including himself.

But not all was right in this heavenly kingdom. There was an enemy down below and this caused quite an uproar. Hence, Pistis cast this bad character down to Tataros. This led to the heavens and the earth being consolidated through Sophia - Yaldasbaoth daughter.

Yaldasbaoth, creator of this heavens and earth was an arrogant, entitled, and at times; foolish - ruler. This did not set well with Pistis. She scorned him and let him know that there was another being far greater than he.

The irony was his son Sabaoth would become the greater ruler and one that was more righteous. He would be called "Lord of the Forces." All the other divinities were jealous of him because of his light and power given to him by Pistis.

He created his own government or congress, with his own angels with special roles and names. He has a divinity named Jesus Christ sitting on his right side and on the left - his virgin spirit. He sits upon a throne of light within a great cloud that covers him. Sophia (the daughter of Pistis) is the only one with him in the cloud.

Yaldasbaoth the prime parent got really jealous and created death and this begot 7 bad forces who would in turn become a demon realm and its poisonous characteristics, being both female and male.

Sabaoth's team would go on to create female and male forces that would represent 7 good forces.

Hence, good and evil would be part of the Chaos and would divide into many renditions that would be manufactured by man, and would be incorporated in its many maxims of religion and philosophy.

we must always remember the roots of Christianity, and Gnosticism, which would be Zoroastrianism.

Zoroastrianism was the first religion to have a black&white worldview, whereas before, there were always shades of grey.

of course, there were always bad guys and good guys, but sometimes the bad guys did good things, and the good guys did bad things, and sometimes they did things that made no sense, and sometimes they were evolved and godly, and other times they were lecherous and mischevious.

Zoroastrianism eventually spread in the Persian Empire, and influenced the Old World religions, begetting religions like Mithraism, the precursor to Gnostic Christianity.

the key concepts of Zoroastrianism are thus:

1. there is a Supreme Being, aloof from the universe. he is called Ahura Mazda.
2. Ahura Mazda created Angra Mainyu and Spenta Mainyu, who interact with the world, and correspond to Light, Good, Spirit (Spenta) and Darkness, Evil, Matter (Angra). This is the origin of the modern version of the relationship between God and the Devil.
3. These two will build armies of angels and demons, and recruit as many human souls to fight on either side. this culminates in Judgement Day.
4. on Judgement Day, Ahura Mazda destroys the Army of Darkness and receives the Army of Light into the Kingdom of Heaven.

does all this sound Familiar? it should. remember that this came about long before christianity.

judaism of course was extant, but in a very different form, and was very influenced by the Monotheistic Revolution of Akhenaten, who was Pharoah during the slavery of the Jewish people, and 'Hebrew' is derived from the Egyptian 'Khibiru' for 'Slave'.

for the Hebrews, Satan was a minor figure, usually playing the role of one of the Sons of God, particularly one that happened to dislike humanity intensely, and was always trying to get God to wipe us out, or otherwise punish us.

Jews traditionally didn't beleive in the christian concept of hell. they beleived in Shaol, which was where ALL the dead went, and was generally an awful, boring place underground, but not specifically a punishment, just a fact of afterlife, as it were. no tortures or fire, just dusty, boring greyness. sounds like a bummer, huh?

Other sources for the rituals and ideas we have in Christianity:

Hinduism. yes, Hinduism! Bhakti practices for instance. let us take the example of Krishna: a deity that comes to earth to rid the world of demonic influence every 5-10,000 years or so, and is also a god whose worship consists of devotion and love, like Jesus.

Catholics and Baptists: Hindus have been using Rosaries and Baptising in their sacred rivers for many thousands of years before Christ.
a name of Krishna is Krista. notice the similarity between the word 'Christ' and 'Krista'.

it may surprise you to find out that many sects of Vaishnavism (the Hindus that worship Vishnu, the parent deity of Krishna) recognize Jesus as one of the 'Avaatra' or manifestations of Vishnu on earth. a reincarnation of Krishna!

reply to post by MegaTherion


It is amazing to me the thread that has been interwoven throughout the millenniums. There is a universal understanding of a creative God and the structure surrounding him.

The names change and some incidentals are different, but the story is basically the same. It is also interesting how the story gets repeated over and over in different cultures.

What I believe is being manifested now, is perhaps, a more advanced understanding, and one that is deviating from what has formerly been man's comfort zone.

reply to post by MatrixProphet
When Jesus was in the garden praying and Moses and Elijah appeared.The first thing some of the disciples wanted to do was to build (booths) or some type of structure to comemorate the event!Here they were smack-dab in the middle of a supernatural revelation and they put on a fleshly mind by wanting to "buld a church" rather than becoming one with the experiance! Sounds all to familiar....look around there are churches on every corner but as far as truth one still has to seek continually to find even a small nugget!

reply to post by Bnmssnit

Sounds all to familiar....look around there are churches on every corner but as far as truth one still has to seek continually to find even a small nugget!

Yes, that is certainly the case. I do feel that more and more nuggets are finding their way to the top.

I just posted another thread that kinda of supports my philosophy that I expressed in my OP. I hope to get everyone's thoughts?

Is God Cruel or Just Misunderstood?