Was Judas the Traitor a Good Guy, While Paul the Apostle a Bad One?

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Bnmssnit

 

they arrive only to learn(too late)that it is Christ that is returning at the Armageddon scenario and unfortunately their on the wrong side!

There is so much truth to this IMO!

Jesus views could be so contrary to what we are taught about him that people could actually turn away from him because they don't approve his message!

The Christian community is expecting an Armageddon. But, actually, the world will end in laughter and joy. Why? Because it begins with Armageddon, nOt the Garden of Eden. As such, the Christian community has it backwards, and Jesus would not be well recieved in their midst. If you accept the true teachings of Jesus, you too would not be well recieved by Christians today. You would be well recieved only by those among them who are "weary", and "heavily laden", and "hungry" and "thirsty". For the most part, the Christian community is none of these, armed, ready and willing to do battle with Christ in order to save themselves from the Truth.

Christ!

[edit on 9-12-2008 by Christ!]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
. . . .

But as far as the Job situation ....that story where God talks with satan...satan is roaming around and God says to him ..."Have you considered my servant Job " satan says to God ..I cant do nothing because you have a hedge around him (he is protected by God and his angels) ....God tells him ....I will remove the hedge just so much ..you cannot take his life though ..

That right there COMFORTS ME when there is so much evil happening around me ..or to me ......it comforts me in knowing how GOD has his hand all over me and satan can only do as God allows him to do to me . knowing satan is limited concerning ME ...that makes me FEEL SO SAFE and not afraid of satan at all ............And I TRUST GOD even more (I know sometimes even I have a faith problem ..just sometimes) .. during whatever is happening and lets me know in my heart that just like with Job ..in the end it would all be for my good and for GODS glory and the end will be better than the beginning even ...I can just see Job after God restored all he had tenfold ..(which I am sure all of that is a foreshadow of sorts of what the trib saints may have to endure) ..it helps me endure the hard times that I have in life ever since I became a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ ....

For anyone who wants to read it ..
www.blueletterbible.org...

The whole book of JOB is very inspiring to me ..
And everything he goes through reminds me of the book of Revelation .And what some of those people will go through .....it will be rough ....

So you feel safe because God only allowed Satan to go so far .........
which included:
killing Job's livestock,
killing Job's servants,
killing all ten of Job's children,
and then afflicting the desolate wreck of a man he had turned Job into with boils?

Perhaps you don't have children.
I am sure, if you did, you'd find that even having them "replaced tenfold" would never make up for God allowing Satan to murder them all.

Besides, what had his children or servants done to deserve that?


I found two verses worth noting:

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Interesting implication here, that Satan is one of the sons of God.
It also makes one wonder, were God and the Lord the same being, or two separate beings?

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

It sounds as though walking around on Earth is a common practice for the sons of God.

now you guys are getting into Calvinism. God knew that Judas would betray him but did not force him to do it he just foreknew that he would.

reply to post by Christ!

The gnostics were closer to the truth than Paul and Peter and what eventually evolved into "Christianity". For that matter, Buddha was closer to the truth, as well as those who interpreted the Advaita Vendanta non-dualistically such as Adi Shankara. Plato, and his parable of "The Cave", was a favorite of Jesus'. So, Jesus stood on the shoulders of giants, so-to-speak. But what he concluded was unique, and not entirely "Gnostic", as it is commonly understood. His teachings were, to that point, unheard of in the world.

Yes! Even the Gnostics had their limitations and human thinking. I agree, there were many giants in history that Jesus could lean on. Was Jesus the first to speak the truth, or the last? Not hardly!

The only wrench in the whole scheme is the fact; that we cannot know exactly, or maybe even a fragment, of what Jesus actually said as the entire Bible was produced on copies after copies, that were faulty at that.

So then, searching person (whether inspired or not) needs to let go of even Jesus' alleged words and put them in the back of one's mind to focus on light that may come forward (and it is) and then weigh it against these supposed words.

Are their traps within Jesus alleged words that can blind someone, or at least stump or stumble them? This is an important question to ask.

reply to post by Christ!

The Christian community is expecting an Armageddon. But, actually, the world will end in laughter and joy. Why? Because it begins with Armageddon, nOt the Garden of Eden. As such, the Christian community has it backwards, and Jesus would not be well recieved in their midst. If you accept the true teachings of Jesus, you too would not be well recieved by Christians today. You would be well recieved only by those among them who are "weary", and "heavily laden", and "hungry" and "thirsty". For the most part, the Christian community is none of these, armed, ready and willing to do battle with Christ in order to save themselves from the Truth.

Ditto!! Ditto!! Ditto!!

He would most likely be called the Anti-Christ as we have discussed.

Armageddon has been going on for more than a century. Armageddon is the title/name/situation and the Great Tribulation is the vehicle or action behind this situation on earth. And it is not what people think, nor how we have been taught!

A*4U!

[edit on 9-12-2008 by MatrixProphet]

reply to post by Kailassa


You took the words right out of my mouth! A*4U!

They are both on the same team and this whole exercise (which may never have happened) was a device or instrument for the Church and subsequent churches (all Christian religions), to use in order to hold over their masses.

Very possibly a fictional story added to the Bible by The Church, or based partially on a non-fictional character but greatly added on to!

A brainwashing story to convince man that we can never do enough for "The Lord," and to put fear into them that bad things can happen if you question God or at any time complain, or not be grateful. I have been a Job and it was not pleasant and I received more attention from God when I stepped up into his face! He does not like wusses, nor ones who give in easily!

Most of all; that God needs us to continually bow down to him and be willing to sacrifice our life to do so. This story of Job keeps man a prisoner and codependent on God and that HE is codependent on us!!

And we wonder why atheists hate God!! Who started it?

Originally posted by Christ!

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Bnmssnit

 

they arrive only to learn(too late)that it is Christ that is returning at the Armageddon scenario and unfortunately their on the wrong side!

There is so much truth to this IMO!

Jesus views could be so contrary to what we are taught about him that people could actually turn away from him because they don't approve his message!

The Christian community is expecting an Armageddon. But, actually, the world will end in laughter and joy. Why? Because it begins with Armageddon, nOt the Garden of Eden. As such, the Christian community has it backwards, and Jesus would not be well recieved in their midst. If you accept the true teachings of Jesus, you too would not be well recieved by Christians today. You would be well recieved only by those among them who are "weary", and "heavily laden", and "hungry" and "thirsty". For the most part, the Christian community is none of these, armed, ready and willing to do battle with Christ in order to save themselves from the Truth.

Christ!

[edit on 9-12-2008 by Christ!]

Yes, time, times and 1/2 a Time. Trumpet...!!!

Peace to you.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Christ!

 

The Christian community is expecting an Armageddon. But, actually, the world will end in laughter and joy. Why? Because it begins with Armageddon, nOt the Garden of Eden. As such, the Christian community has it backwards, and Jesus would not be well recieved in their midst. If you accept the true teachings of Jesus, you too would not be well recieved by Christians today. You would be well recieved only by those among them who are "weary", and "heavily laden", and "hungry" and "thirsty". For the most part, the Christian community is none of these, armed, ready and willing to do battle with Christ in order to save themselves from the Truth.

Ditto!! Ditto!! Ditto!!

He would most likely be called the Anti-Christ as we have discussed.

Armageddon has been going on for more than a century. Armageddon is the title/name/situation and the Great Tribulation is the vehicle or action behind this situation on earth. And it is not what people think, nor how we have been taught!

A*4U!

[edit on 9-12-2008 by MatrixProphet]

Thayer Definition:
Armageddon = “the hill or city of Megiddo”

H2042
הרר
hârâr
haw-rawr'
From an unused root meaning to loom up; a mountain: - hill, mount (-ain).

H4023
מגדּו מגדּון
megiddôn megiddô
meg-id-done', meg-id-do'
From H1413; rendezvous; Megiddon or Megiddo, a place in Palestine: - Megiddo, Megiddon.

The mountain Rendezvous....a night on bald mountain, the eye of the pyramid, the top of the heap.

Peace

[edit on 9-12-2008 by letthereaderunderstand]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
Are their traps within Jesus alleged words that can blind someone, or at least stump or stumble them? This is an important question to ask.

Yes there are traps because words have been put into his mouth. As a rule of thumb, among the pop gospels, less than 20% of what is ascribed to Jesus was actually said by him. A blatant example would be the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. The earliest gospels were generally "sayings" gospels, ie. "Jesus said...". The gospel of Thomas is a good example. The pop gospels are novels based on sayings gospels and hearsay. They were composed after the works of Paul, who began about 20 years after the resurrection, and continued for some 20 odd years. None of the pop gospel authors met Jesus, but for Mark...as a child.

So the gospels are a mix of "wheat and tares", "sheep and goats" because the original sources have been interpreted, filtered, and overlayed by popular opinion. They are "based on a true story", so-to-speak, but do not convey the truly radical worldview of Jesus. To understand his worldview, one would needs endeavor to sleuth out what that view may have been, and edit out things he alledgedly said that do not line up with that view.

Matthew most obviously asserts an agenda which attempts to tie Jesus in with a Jewish worldview relative to their concept of a "Messiah". Early on, Jesus legacy was force fit into all kinds of Hebrew prophetic legacy. That is still going on, fanatically, and serves rather to validate Hebrew myth rather than Jesus' truth. The overall effect is that Jesus has been made the unique one-and-only son of gOd...the maker of "the world", utterly subverting his message. Effectively, they make Jesus the son of s.a.t.a.n, by valuing his human genesis, even as the Pharisee valued their human - nationalistic - geneology.

The gospel of Thomas fairs better than the pop gospels relative to authentic sayings. As it circulated after his death, it too was compromised by those who would add sayings as if they came from Jesus mouth. These account for about 30% of the gospel of Thomas.

The "Q" source was a sayings gospel composed by Stephen and two others and was called, "The Words of The Master". It was a first person account, and collected together as these three deciples detatched from Jame's school of thought relative to his brother's worldview. Words of the Master served as a basis for the novels that followed, and was eventually purged from history in the same way the gospel of Thomas was purged...because it simply did not correspond to the emerging theology, spread most fanatically by Paul, but supported by James and Peter who headed a school of thought that disagreed with Thomas.

So there was a rift among the earliest followers of Jesus. Thomas, though not complete in his understanding, figured that the resurrection was a reference to a waking mind. The others preferred that it refer to physical restoration of a glorified body. Interpreters of Jesus teachings are still divided along these lines...and fooled by a lingering desire to maintain the ways of the world: autonomous personas, individualism, and special status.

Only the truth sets free. So, most of the core personalities that befriended Jesus spent another twenty incarnations figuring it all out. I'm speaking from a viewpoint in which time is already finished. Salvation is promised to every aspect of the Son of God. It is not promised to man. There are no men in the Kingdom of God...there are no unique personalites, personas, or persons or beings different in any way from any other being.

To accept less is not to accept salvation...as taught by Jesus.

Christ!

[edit on 9-12-2008 by Christ!]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Kailassa
You took the words right out of my mouth! A*4U!

I have found your posts in this thread interesting and enlightening, and enjoyed reading every one of them.
Christ!'s too, there has been a great discussion here.

They are both on the same team and this whole exercise (which may never have happened) was a device or instrument for the Church and subsequent churches (all Christian religions), to use in order to hold over their masses.

Creation is sending energy into the void and separating that energy into positive and negative, to create form.
As our bodies are created from the mix of positive and negative, as long as we identify with our bodies our understanding is limited to the illusory positive/negative dimension.
So, to become understandable to us, God had to appear as positive and negative. Thus we have the authoritarian, genocidal moralist, (representing the ultimate leader,) and Satan, (the Court Jester,) who committed the one crime God could not abide, setting himself up as an equal..

Very possibly a fictional story added to the Bible by The Church, or based partially on a non-fictional character but greatly added on to!

Its truth is in the influence it has had on Jewish and Christian society.
A story which has moulded the thoughts of so many, acquires and existence of its own.

A brainwashing story to convince man that we can never do enough for "The Lord," and to put fear into them that bad things can happen if you question God or at any time complain, or not be grateful. I have been a Job and it was not pleasant and I received more attention from God when I stepped up into his face! He does not like wusses, nor ones who give in easily!

Yes, as with the story of Abraham being ordered to sacrifice Isaac, the story was planted by the priests who ran this theocracy, to teach people to be prepared to give all, and to question nothing.

Speaking of "stepping up into his face," few people realise one can argue with God. Once I was on a lonely mountain road and my baby started convulsing, and wouldn't stop. Eventually his little body gave out and he was laying there dead in my arms. And I felt an unbelievable anger at God and could not accept that my son was taken from me. So I roared at him, furious, telling him to give my son back now. They were not shouts of pain, it was a real feeling of fighting God and making him do the right thing. And my little boy came back to life.

Of course the skeptics who would say my child was not really dead, and just recovered consciousness, have a point, but I know how it seemed to me.

Most of all; that God needs us to continually bow down to him and be willing to sacrifice our life to do so. This story of Job keeps man a prisoner and codependent on God and that HE is codependent on us!!

And that's the way the churches want it.
They want complete control both of us and of God.
I was five when I first tried to explain to a minister, (who was saying only the priests can know God, so we must go to church and do what they say,) that he was wrong, that God, (who was my much needed "invisible friend",) does talk to us directly and not just to ministers.

And we wonder why atheists hate God!! Who started it?

I was the self appointed Sunday School teacher in the little village I grew up in at 14. I hope one day Jesus will call me a Christian, but in the meantime I will not.
Too much wrong is being done in the name of Christianity, and I cannot lend it my support. Even the creed, stating that only Christians can go to heaven, stuck in my throat after visiting heaven myself and seeing that it was open to all.

So no dogma now and no church. Just an effort to live in the spirit and to do whatever good I see in front of me.

Again I state the fact that Paul, although being seen as "unright" in the judgemental eye of too many people, actually did anything wrong.

Paul took events that had some retelling value and he then Dummied it down for the christians of the day. Back then too many were illiterate and not very bright, in order to make the entertainment factor and therefore the acceptability and memoriability increase, Paul dummied down the story.

The bible is the dummied down truth.

One might argue that's why some of those that call it "faith" to believe in a bunch of mythological bullpucky have such a hard time facing the facts.

reply to post by Kailassa


Your story really moved me! I totally believe in what you are saying.

God woke me up one night (he likes to do that) and asked me, "You are not codependent on any living human (no because he kicked it out of me), so when are you going to not be codependent on me?

Telling me that this was the next step, hence, he put me through all kinds of situations where I was forced to step up and tell him what I thought, and how I felt he was doing. None of it - good!!

I would tell him that if he were human I would turn him into CPS: Child Protection Services, because he was doing such a bad job. If I treated any of my children that way I would be in great trouble.

It was forced growth and interdependence from him. We no longer have a daughter and Father relationship. As far as it is possible, we have an equal relationship. I no longer view him as Lord, Father or any other title except I call him Jah. That works for me! He demands straightforward communication. I have come to respect that and enjoy it. At the same time I have & show respect for him.

It has brought me "Freedom!"

reply to post by Incarnated

Again I state the fact that Paul, although being seen as "unright" in the judgemental eye of too many people, actually did anything wrong.

This perhaps is not completely true! Look at motives. Look at honesty and integrity. Where were his "senses?"

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Incarnated

 

Again I state the fact that Paul, although being seen as "unright" in the judgemental eye of too many people, actually did anything wrong.

This perhaps is not completely true! Look at motives. Look at honesty and integrity. Where were his "senses?"

It is true. How many people this very day get a good story and ad flash and flare to it to make it more desireable? Have you watched anything on television or from hollywood lately?

Maybe A.D.D. isn't all that new of a phenomenon. Maybe Paul seen the A.D.D. in human society and thought he'd tweek the story a little to make it more acceptable.

With nothing to compari it to, you have no ground to stand on. Christianity in that time wasn't all that hot of a ticket, but after Paul's tweek, it became all the rage.

Why view everything in a negitive context? Why not try to see light in everything?

reply to post by Incarnated

Why view everything in a negitive context? Why not try to see light in everything?

Because negativity can be subjective. What can appear negative can in the end be a positive thing. Often you need both to see the difference. It can be a comparative to make a judgment on.

It builds character and strength. An attitude of; right, wrong or indifferent, this is how I feel! God gave us emotions to judge the quality of our life. So, it is important to "gain the wisdom to know the difference." I must see and be aware of the dark, to appreciate the light.

Judas wanted silver. He got silver and realised how worthless he was in the face of good. It is important that we accept the Catholic doctrine that we are not worthy of being made in God's name, ie just like her. Judas sold out Jesus because currency meant something then and I'm sure Gordon Brown would sell out the British People for the Gold that he sold from our reserves at rock bottom price. Brown fancies himself as a deity but is even more evil than Melkor.

Judas, well done showing what traitors polticians are. GB take note.

reply to post by redled

Judas wanted silver. He got silver and realised how worthless he was in the face of good. It is important that we accept the Catholic doctrine that we are not worthy of being made in God's name, ie just like her.

Could this be a programed belief?

Again, was Jesus a poor judge of character? Judas is said to have been a close friend of Jesus, was money really that much more important than a friend?

To sell out your friend takes a real sociopath of a person to do this. If he was a sociopath, he would not have had the conscience to then turn about and kill himself. He would have been a narcissistic person that would have saved himself at all costs. It doesn't line up!

Why wouldn't we be worthy of being created in God's image? Do you think he/she did a faulty job? Could we actually be just a template for future generations and he/she is working out the kinks?

Thanks for your post and look forward to more!

[edit on 9-12-2008 by MatrixProphet]

reply to post by redled


Actually Silver wasn't what Judas wanted. Judas wanted "change" but the type of change he wanted was revolutionary, sweeping and agressive.

The Full Story!

On the preceding day Judas had disclosed to some of his relatives and to certain Sadducean friends of his father's family that he had reached the conclusion that, while Jesus was a well-meaning dreamer and idealist, he was not the expected deliverer of Israel. Judas stated that he would very much like to find some way of withdrawing gracefully from the whole movement. His friends flatteringly assured him that his withdrawal would be hailed by the Jewish rulers as a great event, and that nothing would be too good for him. They led him to believe that he would forthwith receive high honors from the Sanhedrin, and that he would at last be in a position to erase the stigma of his well-meant but "unfortunate association with untaught Galileans."

Originally posted by redled
Judas wanted silver. He got silver and realised how worthless he was in the face of good. It is important that we accept the Catholic doctrine that we are not worthy of being made in God's name, ie just like her. Judas sold out Jesus because currency meant something then and I'm sure Gordon Brown would sell out the British People for the Gold that he sold from our reserves at rock bottom price. Brown fancies himself as a deity but is even more evil than Melkor.

Judas, well done showing what traitors polticians are. GB take note.

Did you ever watch "Canada's Worst Driver?"
I watched an episode the other day which illustrated the truth that you hit what you focus on. To avoid hitting cardboard "pedestrians" they had to focus on where they wanted to go, not on where they should avoid going.

To live well a person needs to be focused on The Ideal, not focused on hopeless iniquity.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Kailassa

 

Your story really moved me! I totally believe in what you are saying.

God woke me up one night (he likes to do that) and asked me, "You are not codependent on any living human (no because he kicked it out of me), so when are you going to not be codependent on me?

Telling me that this was the next step, hence, he put me through all kinds of situations where I was forced to step up and tell him what I thought, and how I felt he was doing. None of it - good!!

I would tell him that if he were human I would turn him into CPS: Child Protection Services, because he was doing such a bad job. If I treated any of my children that way I would be in great trouble.

It was forced growth and interdependence from him. We no longer have a daughter and Father relationship. As far as it is possible, we have an equal relationship. I no longer view him as Lord, Father or any other title except I call him Jah. That works for me! He demands straightforward communication. I have come to respect that and enjoy it. At the same time I have & show respect for him.

It has brought me "Freedom!"

So you grew up,
grew out of religion,
and instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater,
you grew into a new relationship with God.



I believe we can relate to God in whatever way suits us.
I find a warm, honest *friendship* optimal too.