Was Judas the Traitor a Good Guy, While Paul the Apostle a Bad One?

Originally posted by Kailassa
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

When Jesus said: "what you do for the least of these my brethren, you do also unto me,"
he was not only saying that we should feed the hungry and give drink to the thirsty,
he was saying that if, through him, you know God, you will inevitably radiate God's love to all others and care for those in need.

He also meant that if you can help anyone understand they are Christ, you help Christ. In helping Christ, you help your Self. You help your Self by knowing what "know thy Self" means.

Christ!

[edit on 8-12-2008 by Christ!]

At the time the bible was written, you could have been killed for writing about God and religion. I agree that the bible has the truth in it, but it is worded like a puzzle. Most people don't know that early christians were persicuted by others, and would be killed if found with documents that were in the bible. They had to write them like they did to throw off the powers that be!!

reply to post by Adapt

At the time the bible was written, you could have been killed for writing about God and religion. I agree that the bible has the truth in it, but it is worded like a puzzle. Most people don't know that early christians were persicuted by others, and would be killed if found with documents that were in the bible. They had to write them like they did to throw off the powers that be!!

The process took so long to complete that this would be the truth at some points and at others not necessarily.

When the KJV was created it was formed with the King and his council. It was going to be the way King James wanted it. Up to that time we have a few centuries where it was in the province of the Church. THAT is another story! All the bloodshed, persecutions, etc. and the rough time Martin Luther had going against the grain, religiously.

The Bible was always in a pickle! It didn't really stand a chance of being accurate. Are we to accept the Bible as fantasy or; like you and I say...a puzzle that requires: inquiring minds who want to know!

Thank you for your post!

Originally posted by MatrixProphet

The Bible was always in a pickle!

It didn't really stand a chance of being accurate. Are we to accept the Bible as fantasy or; like you and I say...a puzzle that requires: inquiring minds who want to know!

The very first sentence in the bible can be considered a lie.

"In the beginning, gOd made the heavens and the earth".

On the other hand, if you translate "beginning" to mean the beginning of time, then the bible is a book about the gOd of time, which has a beginning and an end. And as time has a beginning and an end, so too must the gOd of time.

Another key to genesis is that "Adam" fell asleep. There is no record that he ever woke up. How he fell asleep, and what becomes of him afterward are all subjective interpretations of a dreamstate.

The dream is about separation. Example, the first thing that happens to Adam is surgery, in which a rib is removed [separated] from him to form a separate being...Eve.

So goes the rest of the bible. It is a book about separation, written by sleeping minds which dream of separation and the strange ways of the separate. Seperate beings begin to have conflicts right away. And conflict continues throughout the bible. It must be the gOd of time is also the gOd of separation and conflict.

There is really no secret hidden in the bible, unless you consider that there is something hidden by confusion. Certainly, the confusion of the bible hides something. It does not hide it that it might be found. It hides it to hide it.

The bible can be considered a lie within a lie, within the truth, yes.
The truth is that all is one, whether at peace or whether in conflict.
In conflict, oneness is hidden. [think: Old Testament]
In peace, oneness is acknowledged. [think: New Testament]

There are but two ways to interpret the bible.

A. Acknowledge oneness as the truth and interpret accordingly.
B. Deny oneness, make separation the truth, and interpret confusingly.

Jesus opted for A.
Paul opted for B.

So, Paul calls Jesus the "second Adam". Not because he understood what it meant, but because he was like a parrot who borrowed interpretations from Jesus teaching legacy [ie. Stephen], and then wove them into his own - private - interpretation.

Jesus is the "second Adam" because the first Adam fell asleep, and the second Adam is the first to wake up. This is a legacy of the earliest teachings of "the Way"...which Paul helped stone to death.

This is all to say that the entire contents of the bible are the description of a dream...rather a nightmare. Nothing that anyone thinks about GoD in the bible is true. Jesus is the first to think truly about GoD...so he is the first to awaken from a dream in which no one thinks anything true about GoD.

Christ!



[edit on 8-12-2008 by Christ!]

reply to post by Christ!


Yes, I would agree about hidden clues not really being hidden...in a way. They are hidden from those who are too material - or too literal, to comprehend clues behind the dogma, or storyline's that gloss over the true meanings, or sidetrack the individual who get so wrapped up in the story, that they miss what is behind the story. It is there, if they awake and can separate themselves from pre-determined interpretations.

I am a pragmatic person and a realist, so my views tend to lend itself that way. I really believe that Jesus in order to rock the boat came to divide man in order to wake them up. Man is so much more comfortable with routine and with regimented beliefs that don't differ so much from another in their group.

Did Jesus come to deliver us from our sins, to be our savior? No, I don't think so.

At the same time, I think that there are individuals who do not fall into the masses and their thinking, and in this sense I believe that there is some truth to Gnosticism, however limited.

To me a true Gnostic in perhaps the way it was intended to evolve, was this; A person who has a pure spiritual connection, and one who has special insight given to them especially by God, or The Gods, and is not earned through just using mental insight or higher self.

There have always been enlightened ones from the beginning. IMO the God from the OT is not one who is evil or stupid, but one who is inexperienced. It would be doubtful that one who is not a true or pure (advanced?) Gnostic would understand the full meaning. Hence, there would be those who masquerade as a Gnostic (one with deeper insight) and would need foundation rules or formulas to follow to attach a fleshly, material meaning or lifestyle to.

Another words: applying rational academic interpretation to a spiritual condition that only the spiritual can understand! Don't we see that a lot?

I must point out one shortcoming to the line of thought that has been developing here (sorry if someone said it and I missed it)
:

Satan works for God. I see nowhere in the bible besides the questionable book of Revelations where Satan is capable of actually committing Evil Acts.

all he does is TEST YOUR FAITH.

that's all he does.

prime example: Job. in Job, Satan is just a guy that sometimes hangs out with God. in Job, he talks God into torturing Job to test his Faith.

in the NT, Satan generally tempts Jesus, in a sense training the mortal aspect of his being to see if he was ready to be the Son of God.

in Genesis, he tempts Eve because he knows that humanity is not worthy of Paradise in their prototypical phase. perhaps the generations thence are the evolution of Humanity Towards Paradise?

you see, Satan is our friend. he helps to seperate the wheat from the chaff, he tests you, and for that we should be grateful to him, for he does all of God's dirty work.

reply to post by MegaTherion


Oh I dont think I would go quite that far with that ..

But as far as the Job situation ....that story where God talks with satan...satan is roaming around and God says to him ..."Have you considered my servant Job " satan says to God ..I cant do nothing because you have a hedge around him (he is protected by God and his angels) ....God tells him ....I will remove the hedge just so much ..you cannot take his life though ..

That right there COMFORTS ME when there is so much evil happening around me ..or to me ......it comforts me in knowing how GOD has his hand all over me and satan can only do as God allows him to do to me . knowing satan is limited concerning ME ...that makes me FEEL SO SAFE and not afraid of satan at all ............And I TRUST GOD even more (I know sometimes even I have a faith problem ..just sometimes) .. during whatever is happening and lets me know in my heart that just like with Job ..in the end it would all be for my good and for GODS glory and the end will be better than the beginning even ...I can just see Job after God restored all he had tenfold ..(which I am sure all of that is a foreshadow of sorts of what the trib saints may have to endure) ..it helps me endure the hard times that I have in life ever since I became a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ ....

For anyone who wants to read it ..
www.blueletterbible.org...

The whole book of JOB is very inspiring to me ..
And everything he goes through reminds me of the book of Revelation .And what some of those people will go through .....it will be rough ....

reply to post by pureevil81
I heard that one of the ETs that was captured by our govt stated that he was a representative of the "good guys" to warn us of the bad guys that were coming.This could fit in order for the armies of the earth to be prepared to blow the bad guys away when they arrive only to learn(too late)that it is Christ that is returning at the Armageddon scenario and unfortunately their on the wrong side!

reply to post by MegaTherion

you see, Satan is our friend. he helps to seperate the wheat from the chaff, he tests you, and for that we should be grateful to him, for he does all of God's dirty work.

Actually, I did say something to this effect earlier; Satan was the counterpart to Judas. Both are misunderstood and both are labeled evil. I believe that he does God's dirty work also, and is part of The Gods.

Thank you for reiterating this! It is not a popular point or thought, but a very important one to understand.

The Gnostics were actually the ones to sort-of invent this philosophy that the evil one rules the earth and man needs saving from it and the material world. This could be especially true if they existed from ancient times before the Christians. The Christians adopted this philosophy and this is the reason Paul emphasized this aspect of Jesus life - his death and resurrection, instead of passing down Jesus teachings!

reply to post by Bnmssnit

they arrive only to learn(too late)that it is Christ that is returning at the Armageddon scenario and unfortunately their on the wrong side!

There is so much truth to this IMO!

Jesus views could be so contrary to what we are taught about him that people could actually turn away from him because they don't approve his message!

reply to post by Simplynoone

But as far as the Job situation ....that story where God talks with satan...satan is roaming around and God says to him ..."Have you considered my servant Job " satan says to God ..I cant do nothing because you have a hedge around him (he is protected by God and his angels) ....God tells him ....I will remove the hedge just so much ..you cannot take his life though ..

Can you tell me what is wrong with this picture?

reply to post by Simplynoone

I am just not sure he would have killed himself had he really been seriously repentant ..he would have known then that killing yourself is not exactly the right thing to do ...he murdered himself ..I hardly think he would have done that had he known in his heart that he was forgiven ...
Yep it just my take on it ...I am sure neither of us would really know for sure.The Lord is only one who knows for sure ..

If we’re going to take the gospel as gospel truth then I just keep remembering Judas was filled with Satan.
Satan took over Judas’s body and betrayed Christ.
I can’t imagine Judas being left with much of a mind after that.
He must have gone completely insane - not only with grief, for what he saw as himself betraying his Jesus - but the whole being possessed thing.
I can’t even begin to imagine what hell he must have been going through!
Repent he did, but, where is the peace in that?
He must have been so filled with self loathing and grief and confusion!
As for suicide - he was certainly *out of his mind* with all of this.
Oh God have mercy.
Though my opinion doesn’t matter in the long run - I feel that My God, the one I believe in, would not condemn Judas to hell for this.
In my opinion if Judas is separated from God (hell) then the whole meaning of Christ, and His sacrifice is moot.
If Judas is not forgiven than the whole Christ story becomes just that, a story, and not the fact I believe it to be.
If there is anyone in need of Christ, His redemption and forgiveness, love and healing, it’s Judas.
If Judas is the only one left out?
Then the whole thing is just a bunch of crap propagated by the Church to control man and keep him in submission.
The fate of Judas and the subject of suicide (his or anyone else's) has been a HUGE controversy between me and the churches I’ve been a part of in the past...
Notice I use past tense.
So, all I can do is continue to pray for Judas (not even knowing truly if that is correct of not, but, they’re my prayers so I use them as my heart tells me too), and keep the faith that My God (my definition of God, what I believe in) would no sooner leave Judas outside of eternal life than He’d leave you or I.


As for your post/question about Esau.
I’ve read the recount of his fight with his twin - selling his birthright, etc - but - I’m not familiar with the scripture you asked me about - when Esau tries (successfully or unsuccessfully) to repent.
I’m curious about it now though, thank you.
I’ll read more about it and talk to you after.


Thanks




[edit on 8-12-2008 by silo13]

I thought I would send you a link to an ebook called The Spirit of Jezebel it has similar beliefs concerning Paul.It is an eye opener to say the least!www.theedgeam.com...

Originally posted by MatrixProphet

Yes, I would agree about hidden clues not really being hidden...in a way. They are hidden from those who are too material - or too literal, to comprehend clues behind the dogma, or storyline's that gloss over the true meanings, or sidetrack the individual who get so wrapped up in the story, that they miss what is behind the story. It is there, if they awake and can separate themselves from pre-determined interpretations.

Did Jesus come to deliver us from our sins, to be our savior? No, I don't think so.

At the same time, I think that there are individuals who do not fall into the masses and their thinking, and in this sense I believe that there is some truth to Gnosticism, however limited.

To me a true Gnostic in perhaps the way it was intended to evolve, was this; A person who has a pure spiritual connection, and one who has special insight given to them especially by God, or The Gods, and is not earned through just using mental insight or higher self.

I have a lot I would like to share, but I don't know where to begin. I know I would never attempt to explain this to our younger generation (if some of you are reading, I apologize) because even though they go through tough times, they lack life experience and our very lives are learning experiences. Being older, we are able to reflect back on past experiences and gain new insights.

Most people (scientist included) who look for God and don't find him, fail to look for him in the right place. The conspiracy has never been to keep people "in the dark" - it's been to keep them out of it. Most of the truly wonderful and glorious things the LORD has done, has been done under the cover of nightime. From the manna falling in the desert for the Israelites, to angels appearing to shephards announcing Christ's birth. From angels arriving at Sodom looking for a few righteous people, to Jesus teaching Nicodemus. Jacob wrestling with the angel of the LORD until the crack of dawn, to Jesus' transfiguration. It was night when Moses stretched out his hand over the sea and God caused a strong east wind to blow through the night to make a way for the people. It was night when Elijah climbed the mountain and spoke to God and God spoke back. Job testifies, that something, though he couldn't make out it's form moved passed his face and then started whispering in his ear. King David knew and proclaimed in a Psalm, that he would stay awake through the watches of the night, so that he could meditate on God's promises and the LORD himself reminds everyone on more than one occasion to "WATCH" because you don't know what hour he may return, wheather it be in the second or third watch (9:00 p.m. to 3:00 a.m.) of the night. Mysteries were revealed to Daniel in the night. And what about the events in Gethsemane? All Jesus asked of Peter, James & John was just to keep watch but they couldn't because their eyes were heavy. What would you have done? What could you have done?

And it is all leading to you, for you are his "Beloved." Just like the "Beloved" in the Song of Solomon who was sleeping, yet awake, when he came knocking on the door to get his bride. For where there is a bridegroom, there is a bride, for your maker is your real husband and you entered into a contract with him, when you were just a little girl.

And you may not want to hear this but it does lead to the very one you think wasn't sent to save you. You see - it really is him, on the other side of the door. But what goods a door that's always kept shut?

So surely he's put things in your way along this path to make you question things. I don't care how far out of the box you have to go to find these things, they are there. Things you may have once dismissed as your mind playing some sort of trick on you. You may have seen something, smelled something, felt something, heard something? What can you share? And what is your sleep pattern like?

[edit on 9-12-2008 by Myrtales Instinct]

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


Oh, yes, you are singing to the choir here!:

So surely he's put things in your way along this path to make you question things. I don't care how far out of the box you have to go to find these things, they are there. Things you may have once dismissed as your mind playing some sort of trick on you. You may have seen something, smelled something, felt something, heard something? What can you share? And what is your sleep pattern like?

This has been my experience. Most of my largest revelations come at night, and it is not uncommon for God to wake me up in the middle of the night to tell me something that he thinks, or knows, I will block in the middle of the day.

But, then again, he has talked to me a great deal through the light of day also. But he can do so when I am more responsive, and not trying to block him.

I have been experiencing these things for years! He has been patient with me knowing that I had a lot of dogma to get through, and let go of. I am passed much of that, and now it is time for me to share this new enlightenment.

I really appreciate your posts and it seems that we have some things in common?

reply to post by Bnmssnit


Thank you for sharing this link! The truth is coming out through many voices. I have had a similar experience.

We are truly living in an age of enlightenment on all levels from science to deeper levels of understanding regarding; Spiritual Science.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


Ironically, I do not want to discuss my dissertation in this context. Suffice it to say that I think you are on the right track. Please U2U me if you would like additional "leads".

Bravo.

reply to post by Rintendo

Ironically, I do not want to discuss my dissertation in this context. Suffice it to say that I think you are on the right track. Please U2U me if you would like additional "leads".

I am U2U'ing you but hopefully you can share with us all? But I understand if it is not appropriate.

Thanks!

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
The Gnostics tended to believe in a Demiurge, an insignificant God/creator of the earth who makes mistakes - a lesser God. Whereas, I have come to think of him as a young parent in the beginning with man. Who really is that good of a parent the first time around, until one becomes more seasoned? It at least makes the story more interesting.

It is not necessarily a contradiction. They said that "the great and abstruse mystery" behind every system was that "the Power which is above all others, and contains all in his embrace, is termed Anthropos." Which is an obtuse way of saying that all of history is the story of one immortal man who continually learns.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Christ!

 

Yes, I would agree about hidden clues not really being hidden...in a way. They are hidden from those who are too material - or too literal, to comprehend clues behind the dogma, or storyline's that gloss over the true meanings, or sidetrack the individual who get so wrapped up in the story, that they miss what is behind the story. It is there, if they awake and can separate themselves from pre-determined interpretations.

I am a pragmatic person and a realist, so my views tend to lend itself that way. I really believe that Jesus in order to rock the boat came to divide man in order to wake them up. Man is so much more comfortable with routine and with regimented beliefs that don't differ so much from another in their group.

Did Jesus come to deliver us from our sins, to be our savior? No, I don't think so.

At the same time, I think that there are individuals who do not fall into the masses and their thinking, and in this sense I believe that there is some truth to Gnosticism, however limited.

To me a true Gnostic in perhaps the way it was intended to evolve, was this; A person who has a pure spiritual connection, and one who has special insight given to them especially by God, or The Gods, and is not earned through just using mental insight or higher self.

There have always been enlightened ones from the beginning. IMO the God from the OT is not one who is evil or stupid, but one who is inexperienced. It would be doubtful that one who is not a true or pure (advanced?) Gnostic would understand the full meaning. Hence, there would be those who masquerade as a Gnostic (one with deeper insight) and would need foundation rules or formulas to follow to attach a fleshly, material meaning or lifestyle to.

Another words: applying rational academic interpretation to a spiritual condition that only the spiritual can understand! Don't we see that a lot?

We see it a lot how non-dual documents/statements are interpreted by the unwilling to have a dualistic application. If, for example, Jesus were to publish a complete, unabridged, unedited, completely open, straightforward, thick book which unequivocably states his case, it would be subverted by otherwise intelligent minds to mean something opposite what it was meant to mean. It is the desire to be unique individuals which fools otherwise reasonable minds into twisting words via intellectual gymnastics to mean what they want them to mean. The same book would be read two different ways, and two opposing camps would arise from the reading of it. The camp opposed to the true meaning would even get help from a disembodied "Jesus" who, claiming to be the author of the book, proceed to channel his "voice" through a duped messenger, interpret the book, turning every word of it upside down, inside out and backwards until the words meant what he wants them to mean.

The bible is no such openly revealed book. And yet, some, like Mary Baker Eddy, are able to see through it, and come to some understandings that are close enough to truth that healing can come of it. The bible is an indiscrimanate collection of thoughts about gOd, and a few about GoD. Swallowed whole, it aids the minds endeavor to deny its true genesis...to deny itself.

The gnostics were closer to the truth than Paul and Peter and what eventually evolved into "Christianity". For that matter, Buddha was closer to the truth, as well as those who interpreted the Advaita Vendanta non-dualistically such as Adi Shankara. Plato, and his parable of "The Cave", was a favorite of Jesus'. So, Jesus stood on the shoulders of giants, so-to-speak. But what he concluded was unique, and not entirely "Gnostic", as it is commonly understood. His teachings were, to that point, unheard of in the world.

Christ!