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Was Judas the Traitor a Good Guy, While Paul the Apostle a Bad One?

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posted on Dec, 5 2008 @ 07:52 PM
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The Bible according to MatrixProphet: “The Bible is a lie, within a lie, within the Truth.”

While many skeptics wish to throw the Bible out as nonsense, many literalists take every word as God’s oath. I believe that the truth lies somewhere in between. Even with the fact that there are insurmountable problems with it, I still feel personally, that it was inspired, but for what reason?

To help me explain my thoughts on this matter I need to explain how I came to this reality in my life.

When I left religion about 12 years ago and left the label of “Christian behind,” I was left with some decisions: leave the whole concept of a deity behind and become atheist like some family members, or delve into the relationship deeper, with my God. Through painstaking work and meditation, I decided to not throw the baby out with the bath water. Plus, significant signs doesn’t hurt!

I then had to reconcile or completely adjust my thinking in all aspects of my life, which included the Bible. For it to have meaning for me, I needed to view it in an entirely new light. Especially with the books that were coming out that showed all the discrepancies, and still are.

In 2003 it hit me like a ton of bricks; the Bible needed to be read as though it were a mystery novel! Not a book of absolute accuracy, but one that has hidden truths. It was no coincidence that at the time I was voraciously reading all of Agatha Christie & Anne Perry novels, among others. It helped me to see the Bible and some of its clues much more easily. To go beyond the surface dogma, teachings, & doctrine (that served to separate the masses), to finally see that there was a message behind it.

I then, was allowed to question and to look at all aspects of the Bible to detect possible truths, within the deliberate lies. Here is where my subject title comes in:

Assuming Jesus lived -

Could Jesus have used someone to help him, who developed a terrible legacy, one who had a bad rap placed upon him, while Paul could actually be the questionable one, who left a grand legacy?

This begs the question: “Did Jesus show bad judgment, or did he see a future traitor and so therefore, a useful tool? Or did he use one of his closest, most honorable loving friends, to do the nasty deed, knowing that Judas would be faithful and follow through?

“In the Gospel of Judas, he does nothing Jesus himself does not ask him to do, and he listens to Jesus and remains faithful to him. Judas Iscariot turns out to be Jesus’ beloved disciple and dear friend.” – Marvin Meyer of Chapman University

Scholar Elaine Pagels said:


“It is something that we could have expected from the clues given by the Gospel of John in the NT. That Judas betrays Jesus is a despicable act elsewhere, and he is hated and kills himself for that because he sacrifices Jesus for money. In the Gospel of Judas, Jesus instructs him that although he will be hated, he has a special mission. He has to participate in the divine plan by bringing about the sacrifice of Jesus’ form. He has to bring Jesus’ life on this earth to an end.” – The Lost Gospel, the Quest for the Gospel of Judas Iscariot," by Herbert Krosney.


One thing dominating in my re-discovery of the Bible in a different context was; there is a Game going on and we are the Chess pieces. So just as the “Show must go on,” so did the Game plan. Is it possible that Judas fit a role that has been misunderstood? Can the same be said of Paul?

Here is where it gets sticky! For a lot of what is attributed to Paul in his writings can be considered wise and even Godly, but I found through the years and even while I was a devout Christian, that there were signs or clues that all was not well with the idea of Paul being righteous. What role if any, did he fit in this Game I came to discover?

Some scholars question his birth and race. In reading these texts of some authors it leaves one with possible indicators of his personality traits, which lead me to believe that he was actually a con-man! The irony; I had always felt in my over 40 years as a Christian that something was wrong with him. He sounded; good, he looked good - Biblically, but never felt “right” to me.

In his book, “The Mythmaker-Paul and the Invention of Christianity,” Hyam Maccoby makes the assertions that: Paul was not a Jew (nor born a Roman citizen) but was born a Gentile and that he adopted the name of Saul when he converted to Judaism and that may have been the reason that he invented for himself a genealogical descent from the tribe of Benjamin and that later he adopted the name of Paul after he started Christianity.


“According to the Ebionites, Saul’s parents were Gentiles who had not been converted to Judaism; Saul himself, then, was the first of his family to be converted – however, Saul would have been exposed in his early childhood to pagan influences far more than a fully Jewish boy. … He made an abortive attempt to rise in the Pharisee movement; that he enrolled with some Pharisee teacher for awhile – but proved a failure. – Moreover, his being a person of soaring ambition (as his subsequent career shows), he would not be able to endure mediocrity.”


The fact that he never even knew Jesus is an important clue to follow. He said that he saw a “great light” and heard Jesus speak to him. The problem: we have only his word on this. It is my belief that he made contact with Satan who was part of the conspiracy in this Game to mislead Paul. Paul affirmed this (a confession? most likely: naiveté): “Yet I am not surprised! Satan can change himself into an angel of light, so it is no wonder his servants can do it too, and seem like godly ministers. In the end they will get every bit of punishment their wicked deeds deserve.” – 2 Corinthians 11:14, 15 (LB).

A Christian author and believer, who tries reconciling aspects about Paul, A. N. Wilson, in “Paul the Mind of the Apostle” he gives descriptions as to Paul’s character: he quotes from “The Apocryphal NT,” –


“Onesiphorus saw Paul coming, a man little of stature, thin haired upon the head, crooked in the legs, of good state of body, with eyebrows joining, and nose somewhat hooked…”


He acknowledges Paul as a bullish, impulsive visionary who does not care how many people he offends, but then says;


“I do not believe the misogynistic Paul, though it is obviously true that the Church which came after him was deeply and incorrigibly misogynistic…”


But oh, how he fit the Game! This author goes on to admit;


“…Paul seems a more dominant figure in the NT tradition than Jesus himself, The Jesus of the Gospels, if not the creation of Paul, is in some senses the result of Paul. – The very word ‘gospel,’ like the phrase ‘The NT’ itself, are one which we first read in Paul’s writings – It is for this reason that we can say that Paul, and not Jesus, was – if any one was – the ‘Founder of Christianity.’”


I think his role played a far more grievous one, that being; a tool that would lead to 2000 years of deception, persecutions, tyranny and bloodshed, and I believe Paul was led by the Gods to do this!

What also came as a revelation to me in 2003 was; Could Paul actually be the figurative; “False Prophet” spoken of in Revelation 19:20 who misled the masses, and got them to worship him? A figurehead that has existed for almost 2000 years through his vehicle of Christianity? This can be a lot to think on.

In reading mysteries it is essential to read between the lines and to not take a character at face value. How the person may be perceived, or even talked of, can be a far cry from who the individual actually is, or what they represent!

If any of this is even remotely correct, then what a cunning divinely orchestrated book, the Bible is!




posted on Dec, 5 2008 @ 08:51 PM
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reply to post by MatrixProphet
 


this is something i have been questioning lately as well. great post matrix.


you will notice in talking to people ( especially church goers ) that paul has a HUGE role in the teachings that come from the bible, what seems so off about it is, wasnt that why jesus was sent? why is paul such an authority figure?

it has occured to me that its possible that paul was in on the entire thing on the part of the roman empire? paul comes along telling women to sit down and shut up, and at times teaching things different from what jesus taught. so is it possible paul came along to mislead people for the roman empire, after all he is really good at making people feel " convicted ". IMHO paul did what he did in order to make people " obey " and " submit " to the authorities.

the only part of your post that i was a little skeptical about was " is paul the antichrist ". it does make me think, so thats a good thing, i just dont know what to think about that small part of what you were discussing there matrix.

all things considered, i am thinking the same way as you, but you have a much better way of putting your words into order than I.

this deserves a star and flag IMHO.


EDIT: i did not comment on judas, because to me it is certainly correct that judas was chosen to be the guy to " betray " jesus. i have actually always thought that.


[edit on 5-12-2008 by pureevil81]



posted on Dec, 5 2008 @ 09:17 PM
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reply to post by MatrixProphet
 


Jesus and Judas are one in the same. The first and last. The left and the Right hand.

Ask why Jesus kingdom fell. Who would know better of a divided kingdom not standing, then the one who was divided himself?

Remember, Jesus said. "Judge not, LEST you be Judged".

Peace



posted on Dec, 5 2008 @ 09:25 PM
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Wow...what an amazing thread! In the church I am forced to go to they follow the bible literally and one day after being interrogated why I didn't like going to church I asked why they went on Sundays rather than on Saturdays (the sabbath day according to the bible). The answer was something about Paul. In fact after doing some research I have found the ONLY Sunday worship (or at least signs of it) found in the bible is with Paul.

Acts 20:7: "Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight."

I Corinthians 16:2: "On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper that there be no collections when I come."



posted on Dec, 5 2008 @ 09:41 PM
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Well, I actually don't view Paul as the Anti-Christ, but now that you mention it!


He could have portrayed in a minor fulfillment an Anti-Christ. I actually have a pretty good idea of who the Anti-Christ is. I believe it is a class of millions of humans and have thought so for quite a while.

Thank you so much!

[edit on 5-12-2008 by MatrixProphet]



posted on Dec, 5 2008 @ 09:44 PM
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reply to post by letthereaderunderstand
 



Jesus and Judas are one in the same. The first and last. The left and the Right hand.


Really good point. Some think that Jesus of Nazareth was not the Christ, but that the real Christ existed in another era.

I am hoping that this thread will open up a lot of potentials. I am always looking to hear a new thought or slant.

Thank you!



posted on Dec, 5 2008 @ 10:04 PM
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reply to post by cancerian42
 



In fact after doing some research I have found the ONLY Sunday worship (or at least signs of it) found in the bible is with Paul.


It makes sense as this excerpt by Hyam Maccoby further says:


"Instead of the respectable Pharisee of unimpeachable Jewish descent, the friend and peer of James and Peter, we can sense through Epiphanius's garbled account something of the real Paul - the tormented adventurer, threading his way by guile through a series of stormy episodes, and setting up a form of religion that was his own individual creation."


It was HIS way or the highway! At least that is what I read between the lines. It could be safe to assume that he was a narcissistic character and it played out in the many scenarios he got himself into.



posted on Dec, 5 2008 @ 10:15 PM
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Originally posted by cancerian42
Wow...what an amazing thread! In the church I am forced to go to they follow the bible literally and one day after being interrogated why I didn't like going to church I asked why they went on Sundays rather than on Saturdays (the sabbath day according to the bible). The answer was something about Paul. In fact after doing some research I have found the ONLY Sunday worship (or at least signs of it) found in the bible is with Paul.


excellent observation, i applaud youre " out of the box " thinking.


great information on all of the posts so far.


ESIT: except this one, oops.


[edit on 5-12-2008 by pureevil81]



posted on Dec, 5 2008 @ 11:25 PM
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Dubbel Poast.

[edit on 5-12-2008 by Lasheic]



posted on Dec, 5 2008 @ 11:26 PM
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I've long seen Judas Iscariot as a close confidant and loyal friend of Jesus. Not the betrayer, but betrayed by history and his fellow disciples into infamy. Not to say that I believe in any way in the Christian Mythos, but that just from a cursory glance at his motives, actions, reactions, and taking into account Christ's mission and his foreknowledge of Judas's betrayal - it seems far more likely to me that Judas was not a back-stabber, but an enabler who was given the the most difficult task of all the disciples in order to bring about the promised salvation for all mankind.

Even Peter, Christ's supposedly most stalwart friend to whom Christ said he would build his church, showed his true colors when he denied Christ three times in order to save his own ass.

But again, this is just a cursory character analysis. Not to say that there might not actually be a point in all this, but I myself am probably just more enamored by the romanticism and tragedy of a loyal Judas figure. I guess that's why I really like Iscariot Organization from Hellsing.


We ask of thee, what are thou? - We are Iscariot. The zealot Judas.

In that case, Iscariot, we ask of thee, what does't thou hold in thy right hand? - Daggers and Poisons.

In that case, Iscariot, we ask of thee, what does't thou hold in they left hand? - Thirty silver pieces and a rope.

In that case, Iscariot, what art thou? - We are as apostles, yet not as apostles. As believers, yet not as believers. As adherents, yet not as adherents. As traitors, yet not as traitors.

We art disciples of death. The death disciple group. Only bowing and praying forgiveness of the lord. Only bowing and defeating the enemies of the lord. Wielding our daggers in the night and poisoning the evening meal. We art assassins. The assassin Judas.

When our time comes, we shall cast our thirty silver pieces at the altar and hang thy head from thy rope. Therefore we shall fall into hell in cabal. Lined up in square formation, we seek to do battle with the innumerable demons of hell. Amen ~ Creed of Vatican Section XIII, Iscariot (Hellsing)



posted on Dec, 5 2008 @ 11:31 PM
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Yyou said you left Christianity behind....but you didn't leave it too far behind. In fact, you haven't left it behind at all. I say this in response to your observation that Paul actually saw "the devil" on the road...as long as gods and devils are part of your equation, you have not left religion behind because they are parts of the same idea. If you want real answers you have to completely leave the box,

My own view is that they were a superstitious people desperately wanting to be saved from roman imperialism. There was an old testament prophecy about a messiah that would come and save them. Jesus followed the path already laid out for him in legends and old testament writings.

If Paul actually had a vision, it could have just as easily been a pre-frontal seizure...lots of religious stuff gets baked that way. OR...he could have just been a guy who saw an opportunity to maybe be something important.

Just my opinion.



posted on Dec, 5 2008 @ 11:38 PM
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But again, this is just a cursory character analysis. Not to say that there might not actually be a point in all this, but I myself am probably just more enamored by the romanticism and tragedy of a loyal Judas figure.


Well, so am I. Like out of a Shakespearean play! Your excerpt emphasized it also.

It really explains the agonizing torture he went through (possibly) and the resulting suicide. And the conflict of knowing that this was a deep secret he had to keep and the dual implication in this story. He represented the evil side while Jesus the holy side. I just realized that!

Thank you!



posted on Dec, 5 2008 @ 11:51 PM
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reply to post by wiseone11
 



I say this in response to your observation that Paul actually saw "the devil" on the road...as long as gods and devils are part of your equation, you have not left religion behind because they are parts of the same idea. If you want real answers you have to completely leave the box,


Actually as you get to know me you will see that I venture WAY out of the box.

To explain: I am writing this thread in connection to the Bible, and trying to make sense of a book that managed to make it though at least 1700 years of mans influence, without being destroyed or forgotten.

It is said that; someone can only consider themselves truly educated if they have read the Bible. It is a piece of literature that I feel warrants discussion and dissecting.

I feel the box gets narrowed and the ceiling lowered when the concept of a intelligent designer gets left out of the picture. Just my opinion!



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 12:05 AM
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Well interestingly enough Judas was chosen from before birth to betray Jesus and if that is true then god himself took away Judas's free will if this is the case then Judas was born predamned to hell. But god says every man is born as god with free will so this to me is a contradiction that cannot be resolved. Dont get me wrong but this is a question i have battled with for many years i am a christian but sometimes like this case i don't know if everything in the bible is as true as some people may thing.
well thanks for reading my humble opinion.



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 12:18 AM
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then god himself took away Judas's free will if this is the case then Judas was born predamned to hell. But god says every man is born as god with free will so this to me is a contradiction that cannot be resolved.


I believe that it was possible for Judas to turn down the commission. But we don't know. We don't even know if any of this was a reality.

My point is to question everything, but know that there could be other explanations. Remember, we have ALWAYS had the religion filter, deciphering the reading, and interpreting the Bible. What if the messages in the Bible are very different than what we have thought?

My goal is to get out of that box without throwing God out, to see what possibilities there may be.

Here is a thread dealing in free will and God that I participated in along with many others. Check it out (if you haven't already)!

Thank you!



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 12:19 AM
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the Bible, and trying to make sense of a book that managed to make it though at least 1700 years of mans influence, without being destroyed or forgotten.

I feel the box gets narrowed and the ceiling lowered when the concept of a intelligent designer gets left out of the picture. Just my opinion!

I hope I did the quote right as I am mostly a lurker and havent got posting down yet.

The Tibetan Book of the Dead is up there in age too and it's still around. Religion became more clear to me when I studied history and could then interpret what was written in context with the times it was written in, and the social construct that was at its base.

Intelligent design? I don't know...the universe is a pretty amazing place and has escaped the understanding of our brightest scholars...of which I am certainly not one of. It is a total WOW factor.

I revel in its simplicaity and complexity and beauty and sometimes apparent chaos. I eagerly await the daily revelations I am presented with
with my open (I hope) minded abservations.

There is an old eastern saying thatinstructs seekers....if you are seeking the truth, be VERY careful how you ask the question. Because it is the question that will limit your answer



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 12:26 AM
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There is an old eastern saying thatinstructs seekers....if you are seeking the truth, be VERY careful how you ask the question. Because it is the question that will limit your answer


Boy, I like that! It is a very Confucius like saying!

We ask questions based on our frame of reference, whereas the answer may be beyond our scope. I believe in divine connection because I would never have left religion in the first place, and it helped me to let go of the fear of hearing something that could make me feel uncomfortable.

I fear the other option of never asking is even worse. I enjoyed conversing with atheists on the link I provided above as it keeps one sharp, but also opens up theories and questions, that might not otherwise come up if we shelter ourselves.



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by MatrixProphet
The Bible according to MatrixProphet: “The Bible is a lie, within a lie, within the Truth.”

While many skeptics wish to throw the Bible out as nonsense, many literalists take every word as God’s oath. I believe that the truth lies somewhere in between. Even with the fact that there are insurmountable problems with it, I still feel personally, that it was inspired, but for what reason?

MatrixProphet, perhaps you would like this website (hope you like to read):
paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com...
paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com...



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 02:15 AM
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reply to post by MatrixProphet
 


It's not so much as deceptions going on by "the Gods" (your term) but a basic lack of understanding, which is a basic lack of knowledge. Some people make this stuff way more difficult than it need be, but that's probably a good thing because the truth is stranger than fiction.

Why in the world are you dwelling on Paul, if what you are seeking is the truth? Focusing on the mysteries that proove Jesus is who he claimed to be is the way. He did everything in a mystery; a baptism, a chrism, a eucharist and a bridal chamber. The Church, not Paul left out the bridal chamber - Paul at least mentioned the mystery of marriage to Christ, in his writings. Other texts that did include it, didn't make the grade, by the church - more than likely because they didn't understand it or could the conspiracy theorists be right and Satan does sit at the head of the Church of Rome?

The Bridal Chamber rite is the mystical union between mankind and God (on a one on one basis it's not a group thing) - this is what Jesus really brought and it is being surpressed. Paul actually left hints about mysteries - even though he didn't expound on them thoroughly or in their entirety, he at least mentions them. And nothing ever changes, everyone always wants to shoot the messengers.

So no. There never was any need for Paul and his writings but he does expound on the gift of the Holy Spirit and that's the one thing Satan can't fabricate (if he can we're all screwed). So to lump Paul in with Satan is just wrong, in my opinion. No one has ever given the gift that keeps on giving, except Jesus - and that is of his spirit - his Holy Spirit. People who are part of this new blood covenant can see Paul objectively for what he did contribute. Certainly, there are things I don't agree with Paul about, such as a woman not being allowed to teach - that is just all wrong. Jesus never said a woman could not teach, yet Paul acts as if we have cooties or something. Well, I know better. I could do thread after thread, in an attempt to explain the mysteries, but even I would fall short of getting it completely right. The Bible says we will "all be taught by God" not just the "men".

I seen you quoted Pagels - she's smart but she don't really know the truth, and the evidence for that lies in her guesswork. She completely doesn't get the Gospel of Thomas, which prooves she's not in the loop of knowing. Now, the Gospel of John was often found amongst the other Gnostic texts, and we know for a fact it's quite a bit different than the other three - don't at some point we question 'why is this so?' I can tell you this much - whatever I say from this point on - puts me in Judas' shoes. That may not make sense to you now, but maybe someday it will.



[edit on 6-12-2008 by Myrtales Instinct]



posted on Dec, 6 2008 @ 02:21 AM
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Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand
 



Jesus and Judas are one in the same. The first and last. The left and the Right hand.


Really good point. Some think that Jesus of Nazareth was not the Christ, but that the real Christ existed in another era.

I am hoping that this thread will open up a lot of potentials. I am always looking to hear a new thought or slant.

Thank you!


Your welcome MatrixProphet.

I can tell you that the "Anti-Christ" is exactly what the words say. The problem is that people don't read the word for word translations, instead they usually receive the broad interpretation of the "word" given to them by the deemed publisher in their corresponding language.

In truth, Christ is just who he said he was, the children of the world. The "Anti-Christ" is then, the one who denies the "son of man".

"The path to destruction is wide"..."Enter by the narrow gate...."

A good thing with God is he alive and in front of us and in us, but the best is these 4 letters. T-R-U-E.

True is another word for Just, but true carries a unique property...In order for something to be true, it has to be verifiable or it is "not true".

Jesus said, "nothing is hidden since the beginning of the world".

Something important to realize. When the bible says, "The God of the LIVING" it is in meaning literally "OF the living, God". This is a statement, just as Yehoshua is. It means "self existent salvation".

Yehudas Yiscariot means "celebrated tower". The celebrated tower is the head of the family and may have been one man, but the story is playing out in the living, so without understanding the word for word is lost.

None the less Jesus/Judas, could save all but one, himself, so in the consummation of the death of all men is the law complete. When death drinks it's own poison and is betrayed by a kiss.

Having no bloodline, is scattering to the wind. God is against spiritists, because he is present in you, therefore the living God is "OF THE LIVING".
The life is in the blood generation to generation. We are to bear up "the son of man" Again, God is true...what does "Son of man" mean? Remember, use true judgment, not biased opinions.....Look again...."SON OF MAN"....."and a child shall lead them, and the administration of the kingdom shall be on his shoulders."

When it says in the bible that Jesus is rejected of the "Chief" Priests and "the builders" and "chief architects. This is speaking of the Generation in which "the love of the many have grown cold", so that the "man of sin may be revealed".

If you look also to the Greek, you will find that a tense called the Aorist which is, past present and future. This tense is swapped for the English "Perfect" Tense in translation making everything past, but it was never meant that way as the word is the "living document".

This is why it is said, "out of your own mouths do you judge yourselves".
Jesus is the Light Bearer, Judas, and every other name that has fallen "from grace" and you and me and all the living.

Just make no mistake. Salvation is in the spirit passed on in the blood to a new life and generation and this Glorifies the father of us who is our host...the truth. No one can see the "faces" of God and live....to many people....almost 7 heads with 10 Horns worth....7,000,000,000 LIVING.....God takes tenth

Peace






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