Firstly, thank you for sharing your personal testimony. It's a hard thing for any of us to do and am sorry to hear about the painful trials you've had to endure. I read all of your post and understand, I'm merely responding to the portions I have questions or concerns about.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
He grew up to become an alcoholic/addict.

He chose these things, did he not? Are you an alcoholic/addict because your father was?

Originally posted by chickenshoes
This may sound harsh, but I wish abortion had been an option for her at the time. It would have save 3 generations of people a lot of heartache.

Naturally meaning you wouldn't be here either. It sounds like you share your father's sentiments then in wishing you were never born as well. Let's take the focus off of ourselves for a moment. Can you recall anyone that you (or your father) may have helped in all these years of living? Anyone you've made a positive impact on?

[edit on 10-12-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by chickenshoes

While it is unfortunate that you had a bad experience, I can tell you from first had experience that PP and others do not handle it this way. They thoroughly explain the procedure to you, answer any questions you might have,

Maybe, because my sister was with me who was a nurse, they left it up to her to explain it a little, which she did using the pamphlet. BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T!

explain what other options you have,give you time to think further if needed, and even offer the services pre or post, of an on site counselor if you feel you want or need it.

This was in Atlanta in the late 80's and it ABSOLUTELY WAS NOT DONE.

And, they also make sure you have a pack of bc pills and a prescription for them in your hand before you leave the building.

NOPE. None at all.

They just took my 300+ dollars and gave me some crackers and lemonaide afterwards.

Sometimes birth control fails. My son was the result of a birth control failure.

My husband and I absolutely cannot afford another child. Now, given that I have first hand experience with birth control failure (which we use religiously) would you suggest that I stop sleeping with my long time mate?

You could have tubal ligation, which I have.


[edit on 10-12-2008 by Clearskies]

First of all, I have no health insurance, so it's not an option for me at this point.

I also have known of women who have had problems post tubal. I don't wish to go through what they have. And, suppose our circumstances change and we would like to have another child? From what I understand, reversal of a tubal ligation has a pretty low success rate.

I have also had 2 c-sections and I know my innards are riddled with adhesions, which makes you more at risk for post op complications, plus the fact that I don't want to give my body an excuse to make more adhesions. Besides all that, you must undergo general anesthesia in order to have a tubal ligation, which is risky. I don't wish to risk leaving my kids with no mother.

________________________________________

I'm not doubting your story, but what happened to you is simply not the standard out there. You seem to be holding it up as an example of how all women will be treated if they ever decide to have an abortion, and I'm telling you from first hand experience that this is not the case.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
Umm, look, you don't know my dad, but I do.

This is true and in no way meant to imply I knew your father.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
He has tried to commit suicide before.

As have I.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
He was so desperate for a drink at one point that he chugged a bottle of Listerene. Does that sound like he had much of a choice to you?

He had the same choice I had.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
I am so sick to death of people who don't know what they are talking about insisting that alcoholics and addicts choose to live such a sick, miserable existence. But, that is off topic.

Here's the kicker. I no longer live in a sick, miserable existence. Looking back, I'm glad and grateful that I survived because since then I found out there's a lot of things worth living for. I look at my family and cannot possibly imagine what it would've been like had I not known them. I could not see at the time I was in my deep depression that I would ever have a good day again, or fall in love, or become a parent to an awesome child...but I did.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
I have not become an addict, more probably because I did not have the life that he did.

You still have that choice, or rather made that choice already.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
The entire point of me sharing that story, was that being forced to bear a child can have terrible consequences which affect people throughout multiple generations.

Each person lives life with the choices we make. Sometimes good, sometimes bad, but the hope is that we make enough of the right ones to experience a life worth living. From someone who has made a couple of good choices since my edge-of-death situation, I know what the pain feels like and will do everything I can help others make that right choice. I think Clearskies has exactly the same motive. So rather than "kill the baby, life will probably suck anyway", my message is "give all you can to make that baby experience a wonderful life...even better than the one you've had". If someone tries hard enough, they just may be surprised how capable of a person they really are. Where there is life, there is hope.

My two questions from my previous post remain and I'm interested in your responses to them.

[edit on 10-12-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

He had the same choice I had.

Oh really, so you mean to tell me that you have been in his exact shoes? That you know what his motivations were at the time? Were you there when all those times we had to rush him to the emergency room because he had chugged nyquil, or drank mouthwash, or od'd on benadryl or fiorinal? Interesting that you seem to think you know all about it. Typical.

Here's the kicker. I no longer live in a sick, miserable existence. Looking back, I'm glad and grateful that I survived because since then I found out there's a lot of things worth living for. I look at my family and cannot possibly imagine what it would've been like had I not known them. I could not see at the time I was in my deep depression that I would ever have a good day again, or fall in love, or become a parent to an awesome child...but I did.

Great for you, but he did not have that option. Have you been through someone telling you every day that they resent your very existence? Unless you have, you have no way of knowing what he went through, and still does go through. I admire that he has come as far as he has, considering his life's experiences.

You still have that choice, or rather made that choice already.

Well, it wasn't for lack of trying that I have not become an addict. If I had been through what my dad had, I think I might well have become like him. I really don't know.

Each person lives life with the choices we make. Sometimes good, sometimes bad, but the hope is that we make enough of the right ones to experience a life worth living.

Now that sentence, I can agree with.

From someone who has made a couple of good choices since my edge-of-death situation, I know what the pain feels like and will do everything I can help others make that right choice. I think Clearskies has exactly the same motive. So rather than "kill the baby, life will probably suck anyway", my message is "give all you can to make that baby experience a wonderful life...even better than the one you've had". If someone tries hard enough, they just may be surprised how capable of a person they really are. Where there is life, there is hope.

My message was not kill the baby life will probably suck anyway. As I have said multiple times before, but it just never seems to sink in, it can be detrimental to force someone to do anything against their will, whether it be forcing someone to have an abortion, or forcing someone to have a child.





[edit on 12/10/2008 by chickenshoes]

It takes two to tango and birth control should be a couple's responsibility. Regarding permanent solutions, why must it be expected the woman must undergo the knife? Vasectomy is an easy, outpatient surgery.

Originally posted by asmeone2
And to chime in to the debate that the 2 of you had going on, I know a few women who have given babies up for adoption, whom I think have perhaps been more negatively effected than those who have had abortions.

Ever question why? In both cases, the baby is given up. The difference is in one choice the baby lives.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by asmeone2
And to chime in to the debate that the 2 of you had going on, I know a few women who have given babies up for adoption, whom I think have perhaps been more negatively effected than those who have had abortions.

Ever question why? In both cases, the baby is given up. The difference is in one choice the baby lives.

Yes, I did question why, when I felt that I could.

Most of them were unable to come to terms that they had brought a child into the world and had not kept it.

Their self-esteeme was destroyed because they beleived that they had brought a child into the world and then abandoned it. Furthermore most of them beleived that their children would grow up feeling unwanted.

One of these women got married and had 7 children after her adoption, then virtually ignored all of them after they were born. It was like she kept having children, thinking eventually that she would come up with the one she gave up to adoption.

Now, not to diminish the pain that some woman feel after abortion, but some people talke about adoption like it has no lasting after-effects and is an option for everyone, which simply isn't true.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
Oh really, so you mean to tell me that you have been in his exact shoes? That you know what his motivations were at the time? Were you there when all those times we had to rush him to the emergency room because he had chugged nyquil, or drank mouthwash, or od'd on benadryl or fiorinal? Interesting that you seem to think you know all about it. Typical.

Did I say exact? I said I know what it's like to be suicidal. To be without hope. To say 'typical' puts me into a stereotype, does it not?

Originally posted by chickenshoes
Great for you, but he did not have that option. Have you been through someone telling you every day that they resent your very existence?

Yes. In addition, including someone I really really liked tell me they wished I were dead. It was twenty years ago. I didn't forget.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
Unless you have, you have no way of knowing what he went through, and still does go through. I admire that he has come as far as he has, considering his life's experiences.

I also married someone who attempted suicide a few years ago. Although they will claim it had nothing to do with me, I cannot help but feel that there was something I could've done different. I'm not sure which feeling is worse...hopelessness in myself or feeling like the cause of someone else wanting to kill his/herself.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
Well, it wasn't for lack of trying that I have not become an addict. If I had been through what my dad had, I think I might well have become like him. I really don't know.

I'm glad you've chosen to live life free of addiction.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
My message was not kill the baby life will probably suck anyway. As I have said multiple times before, but it just never seems to sink in, it can be detrimental to force someone to do anything against their will, whether it be forcing someone to have an abortion, or forcing someone to have a child.

Sometimes you have to encourage something to do things they don't want to do. As a parent, I understand the value of disciplining my child. Neither of us like it, but the result is good.

I'm not here to list my credentials to explain why I'm qualified to speak on suicide and the like. It doesn't take downing a bottle of pills to know how it feels. Even if we're forced into a hellish situation, we still have the right to choose what we do as an individual. I hope with all fibers in my being that that choice is to live and encourage others to live. Many people will have times where they wish they were dead, but it's the days that we feel alive that makes life worth living. Despair leads to death, if not physically, then emotionally & spiritually. Hope leads to life, if not today, someday soon.

Still waiting on the answers of these two:

Can you recall anyone that you (or your father) may have helped in all these years of living? Anyone you've made a positive impact on?


[edit on 10-12-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Did I say exact? I said I know what it's like to be suicidal. To be without hope. To say 'typical' puts me into a stereotype, does it not?

I took you to mean that being an alcoholic was his choice, and from my personal experience, he did not have a choice. Your response is typical of someone who has never seen this firsthand. If you had been there when my dad did all those things, you might understand why I feel as I do about it being a choice vs. a compulsion.

Yes. In addition, including someone I really really liked tell me they wished I were dead. It was twenty years ago. I didn't forget.

Really, so your very own mother rejected you totally?

Look, I'm really sorry you have had those experiences, but unless you are my dad, you cannot understand what is in his mind, and the difficulty of his life.

I also married someone who attempted suicide a few years ago. Although they will claim it had nothing to do with me, I cannot help but feel that there was something I could've done different. I'm not sure which feeling is worse...hopelessness in myself or feeling like the cause of someone else wanting to kill his/herself.

I don't know either. I'm sorry that happened. I feel for both of you.

I'm glad you've chosen to live life free of addiction.

Well, as I said before, maybe you misunderstood, I have done many foolish things in my life, such as drink and take drugs. Fortunately, I have not become addicted and now only have a few beers occasionally. It seem that for now, I can handle it ok, but my dad was not so fortunate. Does drinking Nyquil and mouthwash sound like the man had a choice in the matter? Yes, of course, he had to make a decision to physically pick up the bottle and put it to his mouth, but when you have multiple diagnosable mental disorders, plus an addictive personality, plus a history of childhood abuse, it's not a black and white situation anymore. Dismiss his disease all you want, that doesn't make you correct.

Sometimes you have to encourage something to do things they don't want to do. As a parent, I understand the value of disciplining my child. Neither of us like it, but the result is good.

True, but you're talking about children here, not grown people who have a right to make their own decisions. What happened to your opinion that we all must make choices and live with the consequences of our actions?

I'm not here to list my credentials to explain why I'm qualified to speak on suicide and the like. It doesn't take downing a bottle of pills to know how it feels.

I don't know about that. Personal experience goes a long way, which I have in spades in the alcoholism department.

Even if we're forced into a hellish situation, we still have the right to choose what we do as an individual.

Really, so my dad, as a tiny little helpless boy, had a choice in the matter? I don't think so.

Still waiting on the answers of these two:

Can you recall anyone that you (or your father) may have helped in all these years of living? Anyone you've made a positive impact on?

My dad, honestly, no. He has always been sick, needy and dependent, as well as angry and sad, which to me underscores the consequences of his mother feeling forced to have an unwanted child. It had a terrible effect on him and his subsequent family.

Me, well, I'm fortunate in that my mom is a good and patient person, and therefore even though my dad has been horribly sick for years and years, I could depend on her for stability and love in my childhood and beyond.

Through her love and example, yes, certainly I have been able to make a difference in the lives of others, however small that might be. I am quite grateful to be here.

But, as I said before, my point in even telling that story was that forcing someone into a situation they don't want, regardless of what that is, can be very detrimental, even for future generations.




[edit on 10-12-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by chickenshoes
I took you to mean that being an alcoholic was his choice, and from my personal experience, he did not have a choice. Your response is typical of someone who has never seen this firsthand. If you had been there when my dad did all those things, you might understand why I feel as I do about it being a choice vs. a compulsion.

In a compulsive situation, it's hard to know that we have a choice. Sometimes we need to reach out or an intervention to show us it's not the only way.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
Really, so your very own mother rejected you totally?

Didn't say mother. Although that is a crushing blow, mine came from another direction.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
Look, I'm really sorry you have had those experiences, but unless you are my dad, you cannot understand what is in his mind, and the difficulty of his life.

This is true, and in the same way you could not possibly have fully understood mine as well. I do believe though that you've been through enough hardships to know what hardship is.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
I don't know either. I'm sorry that happened. I feel for both of you.

I wouldn't expect anyone to know. Most of our family doesn't even know. Nevertheless my spouse lives and is strong, gracing us with presence daily. Even though death was chosen, life prevailed. That says something to me that's nothing short of miraculous.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
Well, as I said before, maybe you misunderstood, I have done many foolish things in my life, such as drink and take drugs. Fortunately, I have not become addicted and now only have a few beers occasionally. It seem that for now, I can handle it ok, but my dad was not so fortunate. Does drinking Nyquil and mouthwash sound like the man had a choice in the matter? Yes, of course, he had to make a decision to physically pick up the bottle and put it to his mouth, but when you have multiple diagnosable mental disorders, plus an addictive personality, plus a history of childhood abuse, it's not a black and white situation anymore. Dismiss his disease all you want, that doesn't make you correct.

I think you said it right to say compulsion, but compulsion is not the same as helplessness. There's a choice...sometimes we need help to see it or choose it.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
True, but you're talking about children here, not grown people who have a right to make their own decisions. What happened to your opinion that we all must make choices and live with the consequences of our actions?

The key word is "live". I would not let a friend walk off a cliff, I love them too much for that. They could probably sue me for preventing them from making that choice, but so be it.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
I don't know about that. Personal experience goes a long way, which I have in spades in the alcoholism department.

Those experiences probably come in very handy in helping others in overcoming alcoholism.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
Really, so my dad, as a tiny little helpless boy, had a choice in the matter? I don't think so.

Some things happen that we cannot prevent, but how we react to them is what's most important.

Originally posted by chickenshoesMy dad, honestly, no. He has always been sick, needy and dependent, as well as angry and sad, which to me underscores the consequences of his mother feeling forced to have an unwanted child. It had a terrible effect on him and his subsequent family.

Always? Not one positive effect on anyone?

Originally posted by chickenshoes
Me, well, I'm fortunate in that my mom is a good and patient person, and therefore even though my dad has been horribly sick for years and years, I could depend on her for stability and love in my childhood and beyond.

Through her love and example, yes, certainly I have been able to make a difference in the lives of others, however small that might be. I am quite grateful to be here.

I'm glad she chose life for you. Even if at the time of considering abortion she may have not felt the love then as she does now or maybe felt she didn't know you, I'm confident she feels life was the right choice as well.

I met a friend I hadn't seen since high school. She said, "If you hadn't come up to me on my first day of school and welcoming me to sit at the table with you and your friends, life for me here would've been miserable." I didn't recall the event...but she did. One hello, friendly smile and invitation and her life changed and I never realized it. I believe at the end of this life we will see the chain reaction of all that we have said and done to everyone. If not for those good ripple-effects...what kind of world would it be I wonder.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
But, as I said before, my point in even telling that story was that forcing someone into a situation they don't want, regardless of what that is, can be very detrimental, even for future generations.

Life hurts, but by virtue of what you've told me of yours, it is well worth the pain. You're a survivor, a friend, and a counselor to those in need.

[edit on 10-12-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

The key word is "live". I would not let a friend walk off a cliff, I love them too much for that. They could probably sue me for preventing them from making that choice, but so be it.

I understand what you're saying, however, I make a point not to interfere in the lives of my friends. Yes, I would probably stop my friend from walking off a cliff, but anything up to that point, in my opinion, is their business. I may offer my opinion if I am concerned, but my friends are adults, and are capable of making their own decisions.

Some things happen that we cannot prevent, but how we react to them is what's most important.

Yes, this is true up to a point, but when you are so sick and deranged like my dad was, you reach a point where the choice is out of your hands. Do you blame people for their own mental illness if they don'tdrink or take drugs? No? Well, my dad is mentally ill, has been diagnosed by a doctor. The difference is that he drank and took drugs, and that was all part of his illness.

Always? Not one positive effect on anyone?

I'm being quite honest when I say no. I can't think of anything positive or selfless that he has done for anyone in his whole life. He was always drunk or high (or both) when he was at home, and my mom was constantly taking care of him, whether it was getting him to drink coffee and sober up, or prying his half naked body off the bathroom floor because he was so high he fell off the toilet.

I will say that even though he was blitzed every single night, he would still get up and go to work every day, and he never missed work even though he had to have been hung over as all hell. So he did provide a roof and food and clothing.

I'm glad she chose life for you. Even if at the time of considering abortion she may have not felt the love then as she does now or maybe felt she didn't know you, I'm confident she feels life was the right choice as well.

My mom always wanted me, I was on purpose, for her abortion was never a question.

And, I'm glad that I didn't have to suffer like my dad.

I met a friend I hadn't seen since high school. She said, "If you hadn't come up to me on my first day of school and welcoming me to sit at the table with you and your friends, life for me here would've been miserable." I didn't recall the event...but she did. One hello, friendly smile and invitation and her life changed and I never realized it. I believe at the end of this life we will see the chain reaction of all that we have said and done to everyone. If not for those good ripple-effects...what kind of world would it be I wonder.

Yes, this is true, and it is the very reason why I always strive to be grateful for my life. It is only through the loving kindness of others that I am even here. I could just as easily been born in the situation my dad was born into, and I am grateful to have had the life that I did, imperfect though it was.

Our words can harm or help, and leave lasting memories and effects, just like his mothers words did to him.

Life hurts, but by virtue of what you've told me of yours, it is well worth the pain. You're a survivor, a friend, and a counselor to those in need.

Yes, it can, but it has beautiful parts too. And to me, part of the greatest beauty of being a human is the right to choose how we conduct our lives. The worst ugliness is when that right is taken away.

Right now, we are free to decide whether we want to have a baby or not, and, if we are wrong in that decision, we will find out eventually. But, in the meantime, aborted babies are not forgotten, imo. That energy goes back to God until it decides to come back.


At any rate, I think it might be easier if I allowed people to tell me what to do and what to think, but my experiences in life wouldn't be nearly as valuable to me. I learn best by doing, even if I make a mistake, and the hard lessons are what have made me stronger.

Saint, I do think you are a very kind and compassionate person, and your faith seems to be very important to you.

I am glad that you have such strong beliefs, and I admire that, even if I don't agree with it.


[edit on 12/11/2008 by chickenshoes]

[edit on 12/11/2008 by chickenshoes]

[edit on 12/11/2008 by chickenshoes]