Originally posted by Supercertari

You're right that the NWO does not absolve Christianity from past (and current abuses of the message). I don't present Christinaity as being innocent, I take care to note that it has not always acted as impeccably as it should have - it's been like this from the very beginning when the apostles persistently messed up.

Thanks for saying that, I hate it when people on this board try to pretend that their faith has blemishes in its past .

However, it was Christianity which has been most fundamental in the construction of Western Civilization, there is no a concerted effort to amputate this from culture. I don't at all believe it should be one or the other I think the two realms should be held in a sort of tension that allows the people refuge from either in the other when they overstep the mark.

What we have to be careful of is that we do not cling to Christianity or some other religion so much that it *becomes* the government. What's the point of defeating the NWO only to allow the leadership of some faith to have just as much control over our lives? We don't want to go so far to preserve the Church that we went up with the same kind of problems the Catholic Church had at times in Europe, or the Islamic fatih has in Iran, or the very conservative Jews have in some parts of Israel.

The current world-view makes all things, faith included, a commodity and only that which can be "consumed" is of value. Increasingly the State hinders Christianity's ability to function and takes to itself those things which belong to religion, such as charity. Giving to the needy is no longer voluntary but compulsory through taxes and the culture of entitlements makes the State ever more powerful.

Well, this one IMO is a bit more dicy. Many churches function like businesses and I think that they should be taxed accordingly. And if if you are talking about welfare, I don't think that we should have it anyway, but for reasons that don't belong in a religioous thread.

If the faithful are more vociferous at the moment it is because of the threat, intended and actual, that confronts it daily as the State increasingly claims for itself Spiritual and Temporal authority.

Once again this comes down to perception. There are legitimate, and perceived, persecutions of both side. The examples from Ashley's book are good ones, but there are also examples of the non-faithful being harrassed or "persecuted."

Things like that have been going on since the beginning of time. It's nothing new.

The danger Christianity is in, is based on a refusal by Christians to stop believing literally, documents and writings that not only are thousands of years old, possibly borrowed form other older sources, but many weren't literal stories to begin with. Ie. the first act concerning Creation and Adam and Eve was a "vision" someone had, and its one of the newer documents in terms of actual age. I have a very strong faith, that nwo will never topple. And I truly believe Jesus came from God, and isn't just a fairy tale. I was raised in an athiest family with religous relatives and was never pushed to accept anything.

Then, at 12, I had an experience of Presence within the words concerning Jesus, and some of the passages of the new testament, and the Presence within.

I was thoroughly addicted to this and joined the Church, read much of the library at the Church, etc. But, I knew right that moment, that most of the Scriptures didn't have that feeling of Presence in it when I read the whole Bible.

Now, this isn't surprising. Its not surprising that a lot of politics, and repainting God in the image of a warmongling depopulator wouldn't have happened. Its logical. I believe someone who only practices due to tradition, and is taught what to believe by the groups, in bible studies, etc. that their faith is weak. Because whats its based on isn't scientific, has caused countless suffering amongst people in this world, including those born, with different sexual orientation, which is 25%,or more (gay and bisexual alone), or roughly 2 billion people on this planet.

Unless, they're willing to upgrade their faith, as they wish Muslims would do, and they themselves become moderate and scientific and modern, this faith will not endure. And I'm not even talking about an Armeggedon or a Revelations taking place. Just on its own.

Christianity is the new world order, when the age changes it will be the old world order (old testament) just like the jews were before. and every god for every age, Wake up people if you have not figured this out you should give up because it could not be more in your face if it was dipped in it.

Originally posted by asmeone2
Thanks for saying that, I hate it when people on this board try to pretend that their faith has blemishes in its past .

Weirdly its one of my "proofs" of the Divine Origin of the Church, no institution could have survived so long with so many at times depraved, at times positively stupid people in charge.

What we have to be careful of is that we do not cling to Christianity or some other religion so much that it *becomes* the government. What's the point of defeating the NWO only to allow the leadership of some faith to have just as much control over our lives? We don't want to go so far to preserve the Church that we went up with the same kind of problems the Catholic Church had at times in Europe, or the Islamic fatih has in Iran, or the very conservative Jews have in some parts of Israel.

I really agree, I don't a theocracy or anything like that, I want the first and second extates to be held in tension for the benefit of the third estate. I think it works best if we have scope for rebellion that is secular in nature when needs be and sacred when needs be. The proposition I make in this thread is an appeal to hold on to faith as a literal and metaphoric sanctuary against the wiles of those who would seek to enslave. In other words, it hasn't happened yet but may well be heading that way.

Well, this one IMO is a bit more dicy. Many churches function like businesses and I think that they should be taxed accordingly.

I agree, have our money if needs be but be careful how its used and don't let the State use finances to impose a world-view on Churches.

[edit on 5/12/08 by Supercertari]

Originally posted by mystiq
The danger Christianity is in, is based on a refusal by Christians to stop believing literally, documents and writings that not only are thousands of years old, possibly borrowed form other older sources, but many weren't literal stories to begin with. Ie. the first act concerning Creation and Adam and Eve was a "vision" someone had, and its one of the newer documents in terms of actual age. I have a very strong faith, that nwo will never topple. And I truly believe Jesus came from God, and isn't just a fairy tale. I was raised in an athiest family with religous relatives and was never pushed to accept anything.

I agree so much with this. Here, on ATS, I frequently encounter a perception of Christians which is based on caricatures received from "popular culture." I'm not anti-science, nor am I a literalist Creationist. Evolution intrigues me and I enjoy the light science and reason can bring to faith (and vice-versa). I don't for a moment believe that most Christians are the luddites that they are portrayed as and here we return to the "fourth estate" impact on Christianity which paints us as, frankly, dumb.

Originally posted by Supercertari

Originally posted by asmeone2
Thanks for saying that, I hate it when people on this board try to pretend that their faith has blemishes in its past .

Weirdly its one of my "proofs" of the Divine Origin of the Church, no institution could have survived so long with so many at times depraved, at times positively stupid people in charge.

With all due respect I dont' think that is very good criteria. Christianity has morphed substantially over its 2000 years of popularity. Either God can't make up his mind on how he wants us to follow him, or we are completely unablet o see what God wants and can't trust what is Christianity now is any closer to his desires.

Wow this is like right up my alley.. First of all Christianity has already been conquered centuries ago. Islam is the last remaining religion to fall. The proof is Al Qaeda and the Taliban. They actually believe this and think that the US and Israel are leading the way to the takeover by the NWO. It is in their handbook. Islam doesn't mention separation of church and state because it doesn't recognize or support a government. Its based on the premise of self rule and tribal unions. If you ever read the Qur'an you will see that terrorist violate almost every law in it. The religion itself will fall and then be revived as it always has been. Islam is like all the other religions in the world, or should I say they are all like Islam meaning that they all start off pure until man get his paws into it and corrupts it with his arrogance and greed for power and influence, ie the crusades. The biggest problem muslims have is accepting the fact that all muslims do not share the same desires and beliefs. But keeping to the subject the NWO/Illuminati/Elders of Zion and all that stuff is a major factor in todays Islamic terrorism. They really feel that they are defending the religion from being conquered by the NWO. They will die first....or kill everyone else. Christianity when it was young was fighting the same battle (jihad) against Rome. But they had a secret weapon... Jesus. A true warrior of God who tried to lead his people to victory but couldn't due to the fact that his people were too wrapped up in materialism, idol worship and worldly distractions like work, alcohol, crime etc.. Those who are behind the NWO and the Elders of Zion have a great idea on how human behavior works. One emotion they use alot of is FEAR and UNCERTAINTY. Nobody wants to be broke.... I say stick to the basics of life, stack your gold, silver, food, weapons and ammo. Because when the revolution comes... Its every man for himself.....