Abstract: The planned destruction of Christianity in the Western World is an attempt to sweep aside the last remaining obstacle against the NWO. When the populace is required to turn to the State for all things, the State will have total control over the people and there will be no “sanctuary” from its power. The State itself is being engineered by those who seek ultimate material power and, with it in sight, seek more power – over people’s hearts and souls, minds and futures.

As, in recent centuries, Christianity has fragmented further the potential for the manipulation of culture and society by those who consider themselves powerful has increased. More and more the State takes the place of Churches as the source of charity and the author of moral norms. The State no longer sees its principle responsibility as the defence of people’s life and liberty and property for the pursuit of happiness but as the means to happiness in a culture where possessions take precedence over life and liberty and the pursuit of property gives the illusion of happiness to the masses while enriching the few.

Through its gradual usurping of the religious in the fields of education, charity and health-care it increasingly imposes a materialist world-view on all three essential areas of life and produces, with each generation, more dependence on the State and greater obligations to accept a materialist morality. Objection to this programme, especially on religious grounds, diminishes the possibility to share in that which is vital.

Religion is, at times rightly, condemned for the activities of some of its members in the past and present but the destruction of Christian values removes from society as a whole another communal entity in which people can assemble to object to the excesses of the State’s materialist programme. As this programme of the destruction of faith continues, by making truth relative, those who are enriched by the materialism of the current age disassemble the barricades people who wish to rebel can stand behind.

Looking at history people often claim that religion invited this primacy of the State by the Constantine reformation of the old Roman Empire, which lead to its eventual destruction and the subsequent “Dark Ages.” The “Dark Ages” itself is a pejorative term for a period in history which it is supposed learning and culture were frozen until the enlightenment. This fails to note that this period in history saw great cultural and academic innovations that are the very foundation of what we consider to be civilised: the darkness of this age is the construction of the “victors” of the reformation and enlightenment periods which has increasingly contributed to society’s exile from these foundations.

The notion of the separation of Church and State is often invoked today as a means of further diminishing the impact of religion on the State but has its origin in the first century of the second millennium when the Church sought to instead diminish the impact of the State on the Church in the Investiture Controversy. Where the Church was beholden to the State the faith could be endangered by the capricious will of the Sovereign (whether this be an Emperor, a King or the Republic). Where the State has control over the religious it can increase its subject’s dependence on the State and remove from them the opportunity, and forum, to object.

Two events, which are considered to represent the transition from dark ages to the Enlightenment, demonstrate the dangers when this separation is overruled for the benefit of temporal/material power. The Reformation succeeded because it was right and proper for the Church, which had (at its highest levels) been corrupted by materialism, to be reformed. However, it became more of a fracturing of the Church than a reforming of the Church because the powers of the “second estate” took the opportunity to diminish the independence and power of the “first estate.” The “third estate”, the “commoners,” did not ensure the success of this fracture but had it imposed upon them by the authority of the temporal, state, powers of their time. Freed from the central and presiding authority of the Church, States were free to establish their own “churches”, membership of which was essential to enjoy the benefits of the State.

The second event – which had perhaps the greatest impact on the construction of modern society – was the English “reformation” which found expression in the most capricious of sovereigns and whose history still reverberates around the world. Henry VIII’s breach with Rome was less motivated by principal than by opportunity. It manifest itself in an absolute claim to both temporal and spiritual authority. The establishment of a State Church lead to a long and bloody struggle in the British Isles the consequences of which includes the establishment of the North American colonies and the colonization of one quarter of the earth’s land mass. Where Church and State were thus inseparable the State could control every aspect of a person’s life for the benefit of the Sovereign. The Declaration of Independence and First Amendment of the US Constitution was not a novelty but the re-expression of the 11th Century separation of Church and State. They were not so much to protect the State from religion but to protect religion from the State.

Establishment Churches have been used for political ends and the second half of the last century saw this demonstrated most particularly in those State Churches which, in obedience to the secular materialism of the age, reversed their position on moral questions in the name of the principle of toleration which “put up with” actions previously noted as being detrimental to society. The “Reformation” has continued in a continuous branching off by various Christian sects which is reaching its culmination in the current trend of “ideocreeds” where the individual feels empowered to create their own self-tailored faith without reference to any external authority. Those who seek to dominate every aspect of people’s lives must rejoice at this opportunity to mould people into the consuming commodities who no longer have a collective entity by which to resist their machinations.

Catholicism and the NWO

Despite the reformation the Church persists as an entity in which membership involves dual-subjection to the State as citizen and to the Church as believer. This dual-subjection was, at the height of the post-reformation enlightenment, something for which Catholics were actively persecuted and generally treated with suspicion. To serve Rome and Sovereign were considered incompatible and being a Catholic alone were grounds for treason. This suspicion and charge persists today as Catholic politicians must either ignore their faith or be accused of being agents of Rome – being instructed by the Pope and his bishops.

To modern sensibilities “dual-subjection” sounds horrific when we are deluded into thinking we are free. The State has presented itself as the guarantor of freedom whilst enslaving all people to the relativism of materialism and promises happiness in what we have, not what we are. Dual-subjection is in fact a safeguard against the tyranny of the modern state where the individual experiences the tension of pursuing happiness along the middle way between two authorities.

Where properly Church and State are separate, in the external forum, and where temporal and spiritual are separate in the same forum it gives the individual the opportunity to, in the internal forum of self, check that neither authority becomes tyrannical. It also gives those individuals the possibility to come together and object when either authority oversteps the mark and seeks to impose generally that which is actually particular. The erosion of the bonds of faith between people and the identification of people as of worth only as individual consumers threatens the capacity to come together to resist temporal authority. As the State usurps the charitable instinct of faith groups, and by fracturing erodes their charitable potential, it seizes more and more control over the populace.

Ironically it is in the generation after this potential was actualised and demonstrated in the ship-yards of Poland, under the leadership of a Polish Pope, that the attacks against Catholicism and other non-conforming religious bodies have intensified. Perhaps it is not in spite of this demonstration but because of it that in the last 20 years the greatest single world-wide organisation has come under persistent attack from those who seek to impose a uniform and materialist world order.

In previously speaking of the first, second and third estates we now need to include mention of the fourth estate. It is increasingly difficult to distinguish between the second and fourth estates. The “lords” of the modern era are those who, as ever, try to subject the commons to their power and authority. Without the ally of the Church the general populace becomes more and more subject to the relativism and materialism of the commercial barons supported by the media barons who perpetuate the myth of a purely material happiness whilst attacking the Church at every opportunity.

Whilst it was convenient to allow the Church to speak out against communism and obstruct its flourishing it has now become incumbent upon the powers that be to silence its objections to rampant capitalism by covering it with a patina of corruption. Whilst these scandals represent an appalling abuse of trust by individuals in positions of trust, the State has disguised its own complicity in these events and has allowed the media to caricature the Church in such a way as to prevent its social teaching from being heard and has all but silenced its solitary voice warning against the excesses of capitalism. The good, daily and global works of the Church have now been called into question and the whole vine has been portrayed as a weed. This serves those who seek to control the populace’s every action by removing from them the opportunity to collectively object to the excesses of the age and has made them utterly dependent on the State.

Conclusion

The Church has been silenced by scandal.
Charity has been usurped by entitlements.
Science has been replaced by technology.
Happiness has been replaced with consumption.
Society has been replaced with individuality.

There must be separation of Church and State, spiritual and temporal: for this separation to be possible both must exist and in the current age the State is seeking not only to separate itself from the Church but destroy it to better serve its own programme of enslaving the populace.

I don’t subscribe to the classification of the NWO as being any particular secret society (I think that too is disinformation). Those who would seek to enslave humanity to relativistic materialism are a loose collective of people for whom it, at present suits, to act collectively but each of them is motivated by that which they seek to impose on each of us: a rabid individualistic pursuit of wealth and power.

Be careful what you read and believe – always ask who pays the printer?
Be careful what received wisdom you accept – always ask whose wisdom?
And seriously think is my pursuit of my own interest, temporal and spiritual, of benefit to more than me or is all we are doing is being manipulated to let the Churches empty and crumble not realizing that they were actually our only sanctuary.

[edit on 4/12/08 by Supercertari]

To be honest, this is good news.

While to be fair, your post seems most critical of Catholocism, the Church, especially the Evangelical church, is hardly a promotor of "free-thinking."

It isn't the NWO that's telling me that I must live by the bible and I have no right to question that or speak out when the leaders of the church don't follow the same rules as the followers.

It isn't the NWO that is telling me thousands of people are doomed to go to hell because of their sexual preferences.

It isn't the NWO that sends missionaries to my doorstep, trying to push their personal views even in my private home, and it isn't the NWO who have a historical background of "killing or converting."

It isn't the NWO who is attempting to deny contraceptive acces and education to people around the already-overpopulated world, regardless of their marital status.

IT isn't the NWO that speaks from the pulpit and tries to--with some success--influence US elections.

Now this is not to say that I welcome the NWO, I just don't think that going back in time to a Christian theocracy is any better.

If anything, the Church is probably a tool of the NWO, and they are creating the illusion of an "apostasy" to keep the sheeple busy.

Originally posted by asmeone2
While to be fair, your post seems most critical of Catholocism, the Church, especially the Evangelical church, is hardly a promotor of "free-thinking."

It isn't the NWO that's telling me that I must live by the bible and I have no right to question that or speak out when the leaders of the church don't follow the same rules as the followers.

It isn't the NWO that is telling me thousands of people are doomed to go to hell because of their sexual preferences.

It isn't the NWO that sends missionaries to my doorstep, trying to push their personal views even in my private home, and it isn't the NWO who have a historical background of "killing or converting."

It isn't the NWO who is attempting to deny contraceptive acces and education to people around the already-overpopulated world, regardless of their marital status.

IT isn't the NWO that speaks from the pulpit and tries to--with some success--influence US elections.

Now this is not to say that I welcome the NWO, I just don't think that going back in time to a Christian theocracy is any better.

If anything, the Church is probably a tool of the NWO, and they are creating the illusion of an "apostasy" to keep the sheeple busy.

I have to agree, god will cast into hell because he loves me so much!

Originally posted by asmeone2
It isn't the NWO that's telling me that I must live by the bible and I have no right to question that or speak out when the leaders of the church don't follow the same rules as the followers.

It is telling you you must live by their materialistic standards and that the State is the cure for all ills whilst extravagantly profiting from the subjection of the masses.

It isn't the NWO that is telling me thousands of people are doomed to go to hell because of their sexual preferences.

I hope it's not Christinaity that's telling you that either. I hope it is trying to maintain the distinction between desire and action that the current world order (CWO) continually blurs in pursuit of the "pink dollar." "If you want it, have it" being the catchphrase de jour.

It isn't the NWO that sends missionaries to my doorstep, trying to push their personal views even in my private home, and it isn't the NWO who have a historical background of "killing or converting."

I can't presume that you have, but I'm sure you have at some stage observed advertisements which don't even bother with the doorstep but sit there in the corner of the living room, 24/7. As for killing/converting you might have missed some pages of history concerning colonization and the "spread of democracy."

It isn't the NWO who is attempting to deny contraceptive acces and education to people around the already-overpopulated world, regardless of their marital status.

No, its the CWO that has commodified sexuality and hence the Other as the instrument of satisfaction. It is the CWO that turns the starving masses into consumers whilst holding on to the global material imbalance.

IT isn't the NWO that speaks from the pulpit and tries to--with some success--influence US elections.

I would refer you to the "pulpit" in most people's living rooms and the one that arrives folded on the doorstep most mornings.

Now this is not to say that I welcome the NWO, I just don't think that going back in time to a Christian theocracy is any better.

Christian theocracy never really worked out for us, and I agree, I don't want theocracy I want a proper balance of power between the first and second estates.

If anything, the Church is probably a tool of the NWO, and they are creating the illusion of an "apostasy" to keep the sheeple busy.

That's not what the empty pews and closing Churches bears witness too. The opium of the people seems uniquely unaddictive compared to the drug of consumption.

How is Christianity an obstacle to NWO? If anything, Christianity IS one of the tools of NWO to control people and keep them divided.

I don't see much oppression on Christians unless I slept through it. Christianity is still going strong and thriving. I don't understand why some Christians are bemoaning and complaining how they are so persecuted. Prayers not allowed in public schools? Boo hoo. At least their heads are not chopped off like in some other counties.

There is no evidence that Christianity is being snuffed out. As much as it pains me to say this, but I would fight for your right to believe in a falsehood. However, I will not support you when you try to impose your beliefs on others.

As this programme of the destruction of faith continues, by making truth relative

How is making truth relative destroy faith? Making a truth absolute is what destroy faiths. Theocracies and nations like Nazi Germany are what NWO will look like, only worse. We have to worry if the government tries to make their truth absolute, eliminating any faith or belief in disagreement with them.

Looking at history people often claim that religion invited this primacy of the State by the Constantine reformation of the old Roman Empire

Are you telling me that this is false?

Originally posted by Deaf Alien

---

Christianity today is a tool used by those in power.

Agreed, they don't only use and "fornicate" with FALSE Christianity, but ALL false religion.... as the book of Revelations states. But again, God will put in their hearts (of political leaders) to carry out Gods will and destroy their old "lover".... amazing how God works!

SUpercentari:

I think you missed the point in my post where I was saying I did NOT see the NWO as an alternative to a Christian theocracy. Just because the NWO might be evil doesn't wash away the sins perpetuated in the past and currently by Christianity.

It would be redundant to debate you paragraph for paragaph, but all I want point out that Christianity is NOT as innocent and has not facilitated the free thinking that you ascribe it.

It is like, "you are free to think what you want as long as you want to think like us! "

Call it the Old World Order. Really no different than the NWO, just different catch phrases.

And I say again, I think the "falling away" and "persecution" is really just an illusion to shut people up. The "Faithful" cling ever more to their faith because they think they see prophecies fulfiled, and many more turn to the state as an alternative.

Thank you Ashley, I would be interested in seeing something of that book.

I agree with you that the persecution of Christianity of this time is not (at least in the Western World) one which creates martyrs - I think the enemies of faith have found out how futile such martyrdoms are and instead quietly tries to suffocate the faith rather than individual members.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
How is Christianity an obstacle to NWO? If anything, Christianity IS one of the tools of NWO to control people and keep them divided.

Division of the people is not the goal of the NWO but uniting them in an utter dependence on the tools of the state and, in the current era on materialism. This will be the only thing that unites the people under the happiness delusion of the NWO - that they are consumers.

I don't see much oppression on Christians unless I slept through it. Christianity is still going strong and thriving. I don't understand why some Christians are bemoaning and complaining how they are so persecuted. Prayers not allowed in public schools? Boo hoo. At least their heads are not chopped off like in some other counties.
There is no evidence that Christianity is being snuffed out.

It's not so long ago since heads were being cut off, the discovery has recently been made that martyrs do not hinder causes but encourage them. The attacks on faith are more subtle these days in the media and in the materialist consumer society and in the portrayal of religion as "primitive". When there is no-one left to pray and no awareness of who to pray to the State steps in as the provider for all needs. The evidence of Christianity's decline is everywhere in the Western World.

How is making truth relative destroy faith? Making a truth absolute is what destroy faiths. Theocracies and nations like Nazi Germany are what NWO will look like, only worse. We have to worry if the government tries to make their truth absolute, eliminating any faith or belief in disagreement with them.

Again, such methods did not succeed but telling people "what you want is what's right" is the errosion of objective truth that is essential to the success of capitalist materialism as "wants" are engineered.

Are you telling me that this is false?

It is false that the Church freely gave primacy to the State and government - it sought its acceptance and then protection. Temporal and Spiritual powers found a symbiotic relationship that benefited both while Gregory VII saw the need to seperate the spiritual from the temporal when Emperors took to themselves not only a protective role but a role of governance.

Christianity is a false religion. It is not what Jesus had in mind 2,000 years ago. I covered this in my thread a while ago.

I noted that thread earlier and my own resistance to the individualism of faith in the current era is noted there and indeed here in what I said in my OP. The "a la carte" nature of modern gnosticism threatens institutional religion and removes the option of collective sanctuary from the Masses. Currently there is a huge increas in the "i-faith" phenomenon where religion is another commodity where the "owner" can upload what they want to listen to and change the covers of at whim.

Perhaps this is what Jesus was talking about? Many false prophets (preachers) leading the masses astray and away from the truth.

Currently there are a plethora of false prophets who preach to themselves as they constuct their own synchronistic faiths and become masses of indiviuals with no collective awareness or forum for resistance to the relative truth of a culture that is united only by consumption.

Originally posted by asmeone2
SUpercentari:

I think you missed the point in my post where I was saying I did NOT see the NWO as an alternative to a Christian theocracy. Just because the NWO might be evil doesn't wash away the sins perpetuated in the past and currently by Christianity.

It would be redundant to debate you paragraph for paragaph, but all I want point out that Christianity is NOT as innocent and has not facilitated the free thinking that you ascribe it.

It is like, "you are free to think what you want as long as you want to think like us! "

Call it the Old World Order. Really no different than the NWO, just different catch phrases.

And I say again, I think the "falling away" and "persecution" is really just an illusion to shut people up. The "Faithful" cling ever more to their faith because they think they see prophecies fulfiled, and many more turn to the state as an alternative.

You're right that the NWO does not absolve Christianity from past (and current abuses of the message). I don't present Christinaity as being innocent, I take care to note that it has not always acted as impeccably as it should have - it's been like this from the very beginning when the apostles persistently messed up. However, it was Christianity which has been most fundamental in the construction of Western Civilization, there is no a concerted effort to amputate this from culture. I don't at all believe it should be one or the other I think the two realms should be held in a sort of tension that allows the people refuge from either in the other when they overstep the mark.

The current world-view makes all things, faith included, a commodity and only that which can be "consumed" is of value. Increasingly the State hinders Christianity's ability to function and takes to itself those things which belong to religion, such as charity. Giving to the needy is no longer voluntary but compulsory through taxes and the culture of entitlements makes the State ever more powerful.

If the faithful are more vociferous at the moment it is because of the threat, intended and actual, that confronts it daily as the State increasingly claims for itself Spiritual and Temporal authority.