reply to post by blueorder

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Much of what you have said makes sense, sadly. Problem is, when a nation/nations regard oil deposits across the globe as intrinsically essential to their own growth/survival, loss of control/influence over such regions is equated with interference on the "home" front, so to speak.

After all, some nations have more right to control the oil than others.

(I think they call it 'democracy'.)

Why do you liberals feel that you are justified in propping yourselves on some hypocritical high ground?

Is it bad... yes. But really, *so what*.

Over one million children are murdered in our own nation every year, yet you do nothing about it. So why should we pull out all stops to prevent millions bring murdered overseas? Your complaining is yet another double-standard and it gets really old. Or do you think that complaining is going to change the world?

The problem is oil is pretty important to our growth and standard of living in the west (as indeed it is to countries trying to develop anywhere)- so, harsh as it sounds wars have been fought over "lesser" things than such an economically important item (perhaps a little more honesty in dealings, ie it isnt just about the oil, but it is a pretty important factor)

My own take on it is it is a shame that so much of the oil lies in the hands of repressive, horrible regimes like Saudi Arabia

So what are we, the U.S., supposed to do? It is a rough world out there. Do we sit back and refuse to do the dirty work that makes things happen? If we do that, someone else (Russia? China?) will step in, our power will decline, and before long you will be living by their rules. Does anyone want to volunteer for that duty?

reply to post by Grumble

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In reality while Western troops are out trying to 'win' wars across the globe their governments have lost the plot at home.

It just so happens I've just posted this summary on the end of US domination and the rise of China on another thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I am aware what I said is stark, and arguably a worse-case scenario. But the evidence is mounting that no amount of oil-stealing will save the US economy - or reverse its consequent global political demise.

I take no pleasure in such predictions. It's simply a case of accepting the logical result of a total economic/financial meltdown in the US, which looks increasingly likely by the day.




[edit on 4/12/08 by pause4thought]

I agree that the US (and indeed we in the UK) may be in decline- my reasoning would be more along cultural lines, we must be the only civilisation in history that voluntarily committed suicide in terms of its population, history and culture......


Re the oil, one thing is for sure, we don't "steal" it though, we pay for it, and dragged up backwaters like Saudi Arabia through our purchase

reply to post by blueorder

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I believe you are right to tie all those threads together. We may well be entering a monumental period in history.


I should have been clearer. I had in mind the way oil contracts were handed out to select Western companies post-Iraq. The machinations were so blatant that I suspect the PTB were counting on the knowledge the masses wouldn't protest the injustice.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say Iraq has been defrauded of control over its oil reserves.

reply to post by pause4thought

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At this stage, I'd like to go back to Iran in 1953 - the coup was staged in order to control the oil, this control being placed in the hands of western oil companies, after the leader mossadegh was overthrown by a CIA backed coup.

Some would say that this man was a remarkable leader who did nothing but good for his people - and then western powers overthrew him so that they could control the oil, because he had nationalised his own countries resources.

More info here

The coup and other info

So we can see history repeating itself - or if you prefer, western government using the same tricks they always have.

I do not accept the idea that it's ok for us to steal another countries resources just because we are better armed.

Nor do I buy into all the "freedom" crap spouted by BUsh and his ilk.

If the west truly represented freedom and an end to tyranny, it would NOT be happening in so many places, including our own countries.

Fighting and killing in resource wars has been going on as long as human history. I am not justifying the killing or the crime. I am just acknowledging the fact that this is nothing new and humans are all guilty to one degree or the other. We are too willing to look the other way when it serves our purpose. In fact I think many people are grateful that they can somehow justify this hypocrisy. Whether it be with religion or television or drugs just give me something to eat, a place to sleep and tell me I am a good person and that it's ok to feel good.

What I am wondering now though is if, in fact, the energy wars are even necessary? Is renewable ready to take on the world's vast need for energy??? My hope is that we all can become energy independent in the near future?

Something that is new for me in the current scenario is the fact that corporations are transnational with no apparent allegiance to the nation states for their goal of maximizing profits. So a part of the pact has been broken by industry. That pact was underlying all economic activity in the US. We will ignore your crimes if you take care of us. It seems of late the US corporations are renigging on their part of the deal as they chase cheap labor across the globe. This will have consequences!

Thanks for the post Budski!

Not all left or right-wingers can be put into boxes or wrongfooted so easily.

Some of us want to see all the truth, irrespective of who it reflects on.

Power has a tendency to corrupt, and corrupt people have a tendency to seek power, no matter which side of the fence they draw their support from.

reply to post by Grumble

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The only dirty work the US and other nations are doing, are the ones that benefit themselves.

All this prtecting democracy and freedom stuff is a red herring designed to invoke patriotism so that people don'tlook too closely at what's really happening.

Sorry about the avatar. I had a better one but a change in picture policy meant I couldn't use it.

I collected what I can find in the time available about America aiding Saddam in his misdeeds.
Here are two commentaries summing up the situation:

Gassing Our Own People



Here is a list of more general articles going deeper into the background on a site I find informative:

informationclearinghouse.info

And a copy an important article from the LA Times, referenced by the above articles.
Unfortunately I can't locate the original online:



That's a lot of reading, but I'm guessing you won't mind that.

Let's not forget the Congo. I think once you hit the millions, your death count qualifies you genocide status. The West would've probably intervened had there been more natural resources to exploit.

not that i have to tell you folks, but if you havent checked it out, search for "confessions of an economic hitman"

i wonder how america thinks it can escape the mutlitude of historic examples of the consequences of imperialism. 100% of past empires no longer exist as a result of their size, policy and arrogance.

reply to post by Moonsouljah

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As far as DRC goes, I'm pretty sure the Belgians (amongst others) messed them up pretty bad in colonial days - then pulled out and left them to pick up the pieces.

We rightly point our fingers at those in power who do terrible things, but who points a finger back at us for not doing anything about it?
The evil they do, and we do, is reflective of the nature of humanity - we are all capable of both good and bad.
Thank goodness for the internet, because it is only here that an unbiased mirror can be held up to remind us all of our own role in the nastiness.
Thank you Budski!

Its about Oil and Natural Gas....and not to forget pipelines. Gitmo isn't exclusively about terrorists. US oil companies are having Afghanis sign lease agreements for the piplines to pass through their land. If they don't sign then off to Gitmo they go !

Saddam was tasked to take Iran, remember the war between Iraq/Iran that ended in a stalemate ? He failed and was eliminated.

Genocide is considered collateral damage if it means massive profits from natural resources. It merely means few people to get in the way.

This is relatively standard Modus Operandi.
Here in the US , the Native Americans were kicked off their land given to them under treaty once gold was discovered on it. Ooops sorry Red Man !

Just to get this out in the open. The original Rockefeller, John D's grand dad was an actual snakeoil salesman !
He actually bottled crude oil and sold it from a covered wagon as an "Elixer" !
That was the beginning of the Rockefeller Standard Oil dynasty !

A great post. But I'm still waiting on someone to blame it all on GWB. *checks ticking watch*

reply to post by sos37

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GWB simply preserved the existing status quo - he "only" did what many before him had done.
The major difference is that he and his friends did it to get rich themselves as well. (see halliburton/cheney/KBR)

reply to post by budski

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The world's most heinous crime

Oooo, Ooooo I know this one

It's when a country decides to Bomb an entire country in order to
get one person.

It's when a country decides to invade another country based upon
News Services that based their News on Manufactured Information
intentionally leaked from the White House.

It's when one country accuses another country of heinous crimes and
that country then does the same heinous crimes in yet another country
to avoid their own laws on heinous crimes.

Is when somebody makes a law forbidding him to be prosecuted for
any War Crimes he may have commited in the past.