The Con of the century!

www.cnn.com...

The more this whole bail out story unfolds.
It is starting to become blatantly clear that this money was never intented to help me or you!
The money is there so the banks will start loaning each other money and double up on there bets so that can make up what they lost in the mortgage fallout!
We living in strange times!
But then again this has always been going on! We are just becomeing aware because of the shared information! God bless the Web !

looks like you americans have a decision to make.

you probably also have to face up to the fact that you actually aren't a world power. you're all just another part of the matrix.

Originally posted by ll__raine__ll
looks like you americans have a decision to make.

you probably also have to face up to the fact that you actually aren't a world power. you're all just another part of the matrix.

America can be bankrupt evil or whatever youd like to call us but not a world power is simply The day the US is no longer The Power will be when someone figures out how to sink our carriers. Until then evil or not that is the reality of the world and Russia and China can't do squat about it. The world is still about who has the best gear and frankly we do and second isn't even close!

Con of the century? Absolutely!

reply to post by Criskahta


I find I have to stand up for ||_raine_|| here.

If some 1980s-style tin-pot South American dictatorship had US carriers would they have the wherewithal to operate them?

The US economy is dead in the water. Shot. You can kiss your "We've got better toys than you" megalomania good-bye.

You're looking at an economic/financial collapse the like of which the world has never seen. Hyperinflation. Loss of all savings/pensions and mass loss of home ownership.

The time is coming when US citizens will experience the consequences of all the shady trading, underhand market manipulation, needless wars and trillion-dollar 'bailouts' (aka pouring good money after bad): i.e. real poverty.

US hegemony is in it's death-throws:

www.abovetopsecret.com...



Source

What the Chinese don't have in terms of current military superiority they make up for in terms of natural resources. Do you really think their vast monetary reserves and future revenues are not going to be poured into exotic military resources aimed at creating superiority and eventual complete domination?

Wake up. The times are changing. Rapidly.



[edit to add source]


[edit on 4/12/08 by pause4thought]

you people must think that the us economy can crash without being felt by the rest of the world.if ours crashes then the whole world will feel it,not just the us.so it seems to me that we all have some decisions to make.like it or not your future is as in doubt as ours.

I see and understand where you are coming from on all of this. However, my point is that although what you say is true and will inevitably happen one thing always slips bye with this line of thinking. The general at the Pentagon who says no way! Lawfull or not the final play comes from there. Just because the banks are insolvent and the economy is toast doesn't mean that the carriers run out of gas in the middle of the ocean and immediatly abandone ship. The US doesn't just throw it's hands up and say ok world were broke now let us have it. Sorry but whats floating on the seas and spread all over Iraq and the states doesn't just simply disappear.

As to your "You can kiss your "We've got better toys than you" megalomania good-bye." Goodbye? How so? They exists and that is just a fact. It obviously annoys you and drives the rest of the world crazy I'm sure but the service just doesn't cease to exist immediatly upon eco collapse. Why that is so hard to comprehend actually makes sense. It's because with your line of thinking economic failure equals immediate military withdrawl and elemination? If I understand you correctly. Once again the superiority of the US military at least in terms of conventional warfare can be matched by none.

As for Chinas military future...You can say they are going to amass a highly technical and massive military yet they don't have it now. We both agree I believe that economic chaos is upon us and happening now. Thus what could China do now? Youy can't build ships overnight...Can't build planes over night...Fact is even if this were true they are at best 6-8 years away from anything signifigant and thats if they started yesterday but as I'm sure you know toys are still their priority for a wee bit longer I suppose.

Sorry, but it has already been stated by some pretty wise individuals that the U.S. is set to lose its dominance.

You may think that the military might will still be there, but how much of your energy is imported?
How does it get there?
If it doesn't get there how many millions will be out of work?
What budgets will have to be cut in order to maintain social structure?
As unemployment rises, government income and budgets are slashed (already happening) and social support payout rises.
Food imported, where from?

There are a myriad of ways this will damage the economy, and therefore the government, and their ability to meet military budgets.

Would you gladly see Americans die of starvation, lose adequate health care, lose social support, emergency services, as long as the government can afford to keep the warships afloat?

Whatever your personal answer, most Americans wouldn't accept that.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
Sorry, but it has already been stated by some pretty wise individuals that the U.S. is set to lose its dominance.

You may think that the military might will still be there, but how much of your energy is imported?
How does it get there?
If it doesn't get there how many millions will be out of work?
What budgets will have to be cut in order to maintain social structure?
As unemployment rises, government income and budgets are slashed (already happening) and social support payout rises.
Food imported, where from?

There are a myriad of ways this will damage the economy, and therefore the government, and their ability to meet military budgets.

Would you gladly see Americans die of starvation, lose adequate health care, lose social support, emergency services, as long as the government can afford to keep the warships afloat?

Whatever your personal answer, most Americans wouldn't accept that.

Dominance in what sense? The whole empire idea certainly is out. Conventional warfare super power status is hardly something that will end and could very well be strengthened However, when budgets are slashed in the US and unemployment is through the roof enlistment will rise. And Manufacturing must take place and that begins with domestic infrastructure and perhaps strengthening of the service. Then a new enemy justified or not will arise and or already has been named. It's a sit back and watch play from here on out.

Simply cutting the military budget in order to feed civilians just isn't the way it works at all. When slashing unecessary spending there are plenty of federal departments to begin with. Surrenduring military spending will never happen and nor should it. Simply cutting the military budget to save other programs is a very myopic view on the matter. Balancing your checkbook and running a country aren't the same.

As for energy I don't know what your personal view is on the subject but for most in this area it becomes very irrational. Without knowing which scenario you believe in it's hard to respond directly to your question without a forty page explanation of every view.

Ahhh Yes we Americans are in a pretty Pickle. But considering that the U.S. has the biggest economy last i heard was over 14 trillion dollars. If we go down so does the rest of the world. So tell me again how the U.S. is going to lose its dominance?

You do realize that the U.S. has been stockpiling oil for few decades now right? and you do realize that the U.S. has its own oil supply on top of the stockpiled oil we bought right? And you do realize the U.S. has its own refineries right?

you do realize that if the U.S. government does collapse that doesn't mean the government and the military just stops and magically disappears.

You do realize that the U.S. produces enough food to support ourselves. and we export alot of our food to other countries so they don't starve because they can't grow there own food for what ever reason.

You do realize that if the U.S. and other countries fail there will be war, and the U.S. will institute mandatory service for everyone 18 and over.

You do realize just because the U.S. economy crashes that those high tech toys we have just don't disappear. the aircraft carries in the U.S. fleet don't run on oil they are nuclear. so are our subs, and most of the new destroyers, and cruisers maybe nuclear powered as well.

So until a country sinks our naval fleet shoots down all our air force, and discourages the american public from fighting the U.S. will always be a world power even if our economy crashes because guess what within days of the U.S. economy hitting bottom so will every countries economy in the world.

See That's what happens when you globalize your countries economy. we're all in the same boat whether its smooth sailing or rough seas. And if you'll notice the crisis the U.S. is having right now only dropped us down on a knee. any other country it would have killed them.

See when smaller countries have had trouble the U.S. economy absorbed the shock in the global economy. now that we the biggest economy are in trouble if we go down it will cause a tsunami collapsing every countries economy.

Sorry to be repetitive but some people just don't get it. nothing will change power wise, if the U.S. economy tanks completely, because everyone else will also. and as long as the U.S. has all its toys we'll always be the big kids on the block.

Don't forget the U.S. is the only country in the world that probably could change from a service economy to a manufacturing economy overnight if the American public was pushed!

we still know how to build those big toys! Also when push comes to shove the U.S. public will band together to overcome any problem our country faces.

So again just how is the U.S. going to lose its dominance?

Well said!...I would have babbled endlessly for pages trying to make your point

Originally posted by Daniel666


The more this whole bail out story unfolds.
It is starting to become blatantly clear that this money was never intented to help me or you!

The money is there so the banks will start loaning each other money and double up on there bets so that can make up what they lost in the mortgage fallout!

We can agree the bailout is a con job, a bait-&-switch affair...

but we part ways with the 'sub-prime mortgages' as the root cause of the crisis...the 'Mortgage' aspect is the scarecrow & not the real cause of crisis.


the banks refuse to lend, because they alone know what their balance sheets are... most likely in the Red & Insolvent because of the Trillions in leveraged derivatives such as CDS & CDOs which they may have to pay someday.


here's a for instance for your consideration:

last month the Billionaire Warren Buffett began his own derivative which others could buy into (at their own risk)

Buffett is the counter party to the proposition that the S&P500 will never reach $0.00.....

betters paid out over $4Billion to have a counter position that the S&P will go to $0.00, i.e.; become bankrupt

Buffet stands to lose/pay-out $11Billion if the S&P500 goes belly up, but has 11 years to pay up !
~iow, Buffett has $4billion of risk money to play with for at least 11 years...with a very outside chance he will need to pay the other 'betters' that $11billion USDollars
(by then worth about a penny apiece)


All the big 9 bailed out banks & financial conglomerates are in more or less the new Warren Buffett situation...
they need hundreds of billions in reserve cash available, to cover their derivatives positions in an uncertain future.
(As-An-Example: if there are bets the 'Big 3' go bankrupt, Citi/AIG/ and others could stand to pay out $500billion in derivatives)

I contend that the sub-prime mortgage issue was blown out of proportion
to start the bailout landslide of trillion$ into the bankster vaults, sealed with the threat to Congress that Martial Law would be set into motion if the bailouts were not begun.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

but here's the real cruncher !

If the Banks derivative holdings are going to make them money,
lets say they bet the 'Big 3 of Detroit' would not go bankrupt ~ as they figured the Gov't would bail them out~...
then the big bettors such as BAC,C,AIG,MS,GS and the other financial conglomerates,,,
will stand to collect money from their derivative positions ! ~
but only if there is a counter party to make those pay offs

A lot of those formerly outstanding derivative bets have been retired/nullified...
because the originating party no longer exists or was merged into the future bebt holders corporation.

Now.... do you think that when the money comes rolling into the big banks vaults they will have any thought of paying back the Tens-of-Billions that the Fed/Treasury pumped into their balance sheets ???

[edit on 5-12-2008 by St Udio]

reply to post by Criskahta & Mercenary2007


I too will refrain from babbling on, despite the fact this debate has become very interesting.

I want to acknowledge that you have both defended your positions most admirably, taking into consideration a wide range of issues.

Yet I believe detachedindividual has encapsulated exactly why I disagree the US will remain a superpower, summarized as follows:

Would you gladly see Americans die of starvation, lose adequate health care, lose social support, emergency services, as long as the government can afford to keep the warships afloat?

Whatever your personal answer, most Americans wouldn't accept that.

While the carriers may well still be at large - keeping the cigar-smoking generals in work - there will be no stomach for fantastically costly overseas expeditions when there is something approaching universal bankruptcy and catastrophic unemployment at home. Think of an economic Katrina. Coast to coast. It will take who knows how many years to rebuild the economy. And during those years China will become the only superpower capable of actually carrying out massive overseas operations, even if the US can still manage to defend itself.

Mercenary: even if the US economy is currently large it has a national debt that will cripple it for decades. Even if the current economic crisis had now reached it's peak, the US economy would be in grave danger of slow death:

Several government agencies provide budget and debt data and analysis. These include the Government Accountability Office (GAO), the Congressional Budget Office, the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), and the U.S. Treasury Department. These agencies have reported that the federal government is facing a series of critical long-term financing challenges. This is because expenditures related to entitlement programs such as Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are growing considerably faster than the economy overall, as the population grows older.

These agencies have indicated that under current law, sometime between 2030 and 2040, mandatory spending (primarily Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and interest on the national debt) will exceed tax revenue. In other words, all discretionary spending (e.g., defense, homeland security, law enforcement, education, etc.) will require borrowing and related deficit spending. These agencies have used such language as "unsustainable" and "trainwreck" to describe such a future.

Source

Now factor in economic armageddon in 2009/10, which looks completely unavoidable. You are left with a US you simply will not recognize. One that has neither the means nor the political imperative to impose its will on the rest of the world.

The government will be too busy building shacks for the homeless.



[fixed code]

[edit on 5/12/08 by pause4thought]

reply to post by pause4thought


i guess you have forgotten history. what ended the great depression? it sure wasn't the new deal proposed by FDR. What ended the great depression was World War 2.

Now move ahead to next year. IF the U.S. Economy crashes so does everyone else. Part of the recovery will be governments trying to get other Governments to forgive their debt. to speed the recovery.

there will be all kinds of finger pointing as to who is to blame for the new global depression. war will break out. The. U.S. will swing into war production just like we did in WW2 and we will sell everything to our allies just like we did back then. by doing so it will speed up our recovery even faster. Add on top of that a great speaker in the U.S. (Obama) rallying the masses behind him and his cause to get into a new world war and the U.S. will remain a dominate power in the world and will remain a super power in the aftermath of the war.

Do you really think China's economy will survive a global depression. there entire economy is based on selling cheap plastic crap. China is already hurting but that's the good thing about a communist government they have complete control over everything and will keep any bad news from leaking out. China is more dependent on foreign oil than the U.S. is. they won't even be able to sail their navy out of there ports let alone mount a sea going force.

Would you gladly see Americans die of starvation, lose adequate health care, lose social support, emergency services, as long as the government can afford to keep the warships afloat?

Whatever your personal answer, most Americans wouldn't accept that.

yeah your right the U.S. public won't except that. But you do realize the U.S. government will fund those services. plus the out break of war you will see mandatory military service in the U.S. (Draft) so there will not be starvation. all food exports out of the U.S. will slow if not stop completely to feed the U.S. public so they can fight!

What the people in the 3rd world countries should be worrying about is what happens when the U.S. cuts off their food aid to feed ourselves.
So see Americans won't be the ones starving to death But the countries that can't produce enough of their own food will have the populations that are starving. Now don't get me wrong here in America it won't be like it is now where you can walk into any food store and buy whatever you want. there will be rationing of food so most of us will lose some of that extra wieght we are carring around.

So Again just how is the U.S. going to lose its dominance again?

I'll part with a famous quote

I fear all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.

Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, upon learning of the success of the attack on Pearl Harbor

while i realize there is a big difference between now and WW2 that quote still holds truth today. Once the American Public closes ranks and bands together their will be hell on earth until the U.S. has overcome any problems it faces.

edit Spelling

[edit on 12/5/2008 by Mercenary2007]

Interesting discussion, I think the future dominance of the US is a highly pertinent issue and one I've seen being covered all over the msm, mostly on Al Jazeera in which there is considerable agreement that the future power-relations of the globe will take on a very different form than that of the past.

What we've seen is a few immensely powerful nations pretty much controlling things, but in the future we're going to see power relations facing a much greater distribution; amongst some of the Asian Tigers, India, China for sure, Brazil, Europe. Looks like we're seeing Marxist prophecy taking place in terms of global power relations

What I believe in terms of the US, is that they will stand little chance of completely losing out of these power relations. I do not believe that government could ever bankrupt the populace enough to make them impotent to development. If you look at Germany post WWII, they had lost all their toys, even all the toy factories, yet they today are the most prominent exporting nation on Earth. All because the true wealth of the nation remained alive within the skills and knowledge of its' people.

The US is full of educated, skilled individuals with enough labour to rebuild the nation even if every building was completely wiped out.

imho.

Originally posted by Daniel666

www.cnn.com...

The more this whole bail out story unfolds.
It is starting to become blatantly clear that this money was never intented to help me or you!
The money is there so the banks will start loaning each other money and double up on there bets so that can make up what they lost in the mortgage fallout!
We living in strange times!
But then again this has always been going on! We are just becomeing aware because of the shared information! God bless the Web !

The thing that we have to continue to keep in our minds is the fact that yes, we know that they lied to us. We can not unravel why they did what they did, but it's too late to change it!

We needed this information BEFORE the vote. I mean, if I can find out haw many years OJ got fourteen seconds after he was charged, why is it just now that we are seeing how horrible this bailot was. No wonder Bush and his cronies wanted to push it quickly. I want clear and precise knowledge on what they are asking to pass BEFORE they do it, when I have the opprotunity to change it. After all, the government still does work for me... Right?

(That's a retorhicle question, I know the answer)

Originally posted by Gools
The next step will be the FED buying up all the bad loans in order to "save" us.
...

Can't get a business loan? Why do you suppose that is? Seriously. Why is that?

Hint. When the central bank cartel wants to cause (yes I said cause) a recession, they tighten credit. Refusing to lend to each other or to "mom and pop" shops has a clear consequence known to all. Whatever pathetic excuse they use to justify the contraction of lending activity, I submit "they" know full well what they are doing.

March 2008

Uh... is there anybody who seriously believes that this economic implosion is not planned by the Cartel?

If there's a conspiracy here it's the MSM's refusal to 'edumacate' the public about how the system actually works and why it was set up the way it is and the possible reasons it's being imploded at this point in time.

The people are being robbed blind because... well... they ARE blind to what is going on and the people doing the robbing are getting away with it.

Trillions missing from the Pentagon budget? Oh those crazy bureaucrats... oh well... what ya gonna do eh? :shk:

As long as the population does nothing about the out of control corporatocracy we all seem to be living under, the raping and pillaging will continue.
.

reply to post by Criskahta


Your soldiers work for free do they? Do your carriers operate themselves?

Your people will love having no housing and very little food?

Your fellow americans have guns, but would never turn them on each other to better there chances of living well? There are no people in your country doing this already and going to your overly populated prisons, where soon there will be even less staff?

reply to post by Mercenary2007


I hear what you're saying about how WWII gave impetus to the economy.

But:

1) As the economy was already industrial-based the skill-base was already extant

and

2) This had the consequence of catapulting the industrial-military complex to limitless heights of power and influence, leading to

a) increased global militarism on the part of the US

b) to the preeminent position of the arms trade in cahoots with the govt. and all the sickening sales of arms to repressive regimes, stoking further world-wide instability and endless ruined lives (-not to mention strengthening leaders/govts. overseas that would come to challenge the interests of the US)

Then again if money is the highest priority in life, having an endless sequence of wars equates to the greatest possible good.

As to point 1 above, it's not enough to say look at what happened in the 40s/50s. Consider how few in the western world - not just the US - have skills/experience relating to industrial production, as a proportion of the whole. The way out is not so obvious now.

As to point 2, is this what America wants: an even more military-based economy/govt.?

I therefore submit that war is not the panacea for rebuilding a wiped-out economy.

What is needed is a new paradigm. One in which nations respect each other's independence and in which they cooperate to mutual advantage, as opposed to going all-out to abuse or take advantage of each other.

A good starting point would be the defence industry becoming just that. A segment of the economy devoted to ensuring home territory can be defended. Traditional enmities would decrease and the endless spiral of military one-up-manship would be broken.

there will be all kinds of finger pointing as to who is to blame for the new global depression. war will break out

It does not have to be that way. How about 'cooperation will break out'? The reason it sounds utopian is because the masses have been duped into thinking war solves problems rather than creating them.

Do you really think China's economy will survive a global depression. there entire economy is based on selling cheap plastic crap.

You let yourself down a bit here. I recognize a strong logic in your other points. But while this might have been true 15-20 years ago these days the manufacture of everything from (Boeing) planes to automobiles to high-tech you-name-it is the order of the day.

China's economy will survive economic depression.

China is more dependent on foreign oil than the U.S. is.

Maybe if the dollar goes belly-up govts. will prefer to sell their oil to China. They've also been developing key strategic overseas interests through massive overseas development work, etc.

they won't even be able to sail their navy out of there ports let alone mount a sea going force

I'll reply with some hard facts:

China Builds Secret Underground Nuclear Submarine Base

The Chinks simply aren't as naive, or behind, as you presume:

Strategic plans to assemble a “string of pearls” in the form of listening posts and special naval-access arrangements along the Indian Ocean sea-lanes. With its new blue-water navy and access arrangements around peninsular India, China is threatening to turn the Indian Ocean into the Chinese Ocean one day. As Navy chief Admiral Suresh Mehta said in a speech last January, “Each pearl in the string is a link in the chain of Chinese maritime presence”. That presence is now being extended all the way to Mauritius, where China is opening a trade development zone at a cost of some $730 million, making it the largest foreign direct investment in that island-nation.

Source: Brahma Chellaney, Professor of Strategic Studies at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi writing in www.covert.co.in...

So what's the answer? War, or an acceptance that China is where it is and that it will at the very least dominate the East?

How about investing all that effort that goes into the military in home infrastructure?

Especially as the US has the means at its disposal to be self-sustaining, as you have argued.

All it would take is an acceptance that it is possible to have a healthy society/economy without clinging to world dominance. Think of the export potential once China is an affluent post-industrial economy...

...with a population of 1,500,000,000.

War is not needed. It is not inevitable, but for militaristic jingoistic 'our nation above every other'. (Does that phrase ring any bells, incidentally?)

Which brings me back to the OP: it may be that the Western powers have planned to keep afloat the institutions that might enable them to cling to economic parity with China - even if it means misusing/misappropriating tax-payers' money in the process. Unable to accept the inevitable decline of Western civilization they have planned a new global economic system in which they will play a major role.

Even power-hungry political leaders aren't mad enough to plunge their nation into a nuclear war they cannot 'win', whether American or Chinese.

The signs are that unless it changes course the American govt. will bring its own economy to its knees before accepting the inevitable.

A far more insightful approach would be to accept the rise of China, and feed off it.

reply to post by Daniel666


Absolutely a con job, but we all bought into the Con!

Economies worldwide are now inextricably tied to credit & banks.

The economy in America, and practically everywhere else, is based on debt.
A massive economy requires massive debt. The big economic boom was sustained and perpetuated by massive borrowing, by everyone. It is a system that is destined to fail.

We all bought into it, we are all at fault. Gotta have those SUVs, big plasma screens, brag about our expensive houses & show off all of our stuff. Not many paid cash for these things. After 2001, low interest loans & reduced credit requirements teased millions. Speculators (buy low, sell high) inflated the real estate markets to unsustainable levels.

Before 2001, the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act (Mr. Clinton) allowed banks to also be insurance companies ala Citigroup/Travelers Insurance. They were then able to rate their own Mortgage backed securities however they liked, whether they were good or bad. A package of Mortgages with 75% of them questionable or composed of ARMs set to reset in a few years, were rated as AAA and sold for top dollar. Now when those ARMs reset and people couldn't pay the higher rate, that Mortgage backed security was junk. But that's really only the tip of the iceberg!

I believe that the War in Iraq or War on Terror was an early attempt to jump start a failing economy, just like WWII, but it didn't work.

To get the biggest bang for their buck the Govt. (in their twisted little minds) HAS to bail out the big boys. The only other option is to allow the chips to fall where they may, let the free market level out and fix itself which it will. The only problem with the latter is people will suffer until the issues iron themselves out. Govt doesn't want to be responsible for the suffering and associated things that go with the suffering - riots, theft, protests, revolution.

So they bail out the big boys in the hope it will create more jobs, which in turn creates more consumption, which in turn will create more debt (Obama's Public Works plan)! Essentially spending their way out of an economic disaster!

Strange world we live in eh?

Originally posted by Jkd Up

The thing that we have to continue to keep in our minds is the fact that yes, we know that they lied to us. We can not unravel why they did what they did, but it's too late to change it!

We needed this information BEFORE the vote. I mean, if I can find out haw many years OJ got fourteen seconds after he was charged, why is it just now that we are seeing how horrible this bailot was. No wonder Bush and his cronies wanted to push it quickly. I want clear and precise knowledge on what they are asking to pass BEFORE they do it, when I have the opprotunity to change it. After all, the government still does work for me... Right?

(That's a retorhicle question, I know the answer)

We HAD the information. Ron Paul and prominent analysts & economists have been telling Americans for many years that Big Government and Big Spending was going to get us into trouble. Now the people have elected a man who will make Govt even bigger, ignoring ALL the available information.

No wonder Bush and his cronies wanted to push it quickly.

Obama & McCain both voted for the bailouts. Does that mean they're Bush's cronies too? Obama is also pushing for the Auto Maker bailout.

People chose to ignore the message & here we are! No one pays attention until it's too late. It's pretty simple to understand that any money borrowed by the Government for anything will have to be paid back by our children, and our children's children.