One comment on debt that was raised earlier

Governments can simply renege or reputiate debt. What do you think happened to the debt of the various countries involved in WWII?

In government debt the buyer is dependent on the issuing government to honor the debt, if they do not their is no recourse. The debt is not backed by any asset.

Nations can if they want reputiate part or all of their debt - nothing limits them from reputiating the debt of a nation they have gone to war with while honoring the debt of those allies and neutrals who have not.

Originally posted by Tinkabit



If the US's debt is held largely by Russia and China, and we default becuase we are broke.....where does that leave us?

Red America??

Mainly China and Japan, actually. And with China now in a full-blown - albiet hotly denied - economic crisis, they're pressuring the U.S. to bolster the dollar value and not debase the currency as is our current policy. I often muse how long China will tolerate us printing money before they decide to jump to another currency reserve, thereby dumping trillions of dollars into a market already flooded with trillions.

I think the only thing protecting us now is the Damacles sword hanging over China's head -- We're its biggest consumer. Destroy us (economically speaking) and destroy it.

I do not see why people can not get what is going on here? It is like the matrix only almost nobody excepts the truth. America has never been America as some of you fairy tale believing school children have been led to believe. It is at the very least a corporation and we are the products. Wake up fools! Nobody did anything before, nobody is going to do anything about it now. Hell most of you still have not figured out the least little bit of hidden truth. Most of you have no clue as to what is going on so you talk bad about them in one way then help them in another.

The constitution does not mean #, it is never enforced beyond what they need us to do, you can not use it in a court of law to defend yourself against the government, if you think you can, try it. Most of you people do not know half as much as you think you do!

If you ever pay attention you will notice people like Bush breaking the rules of this worthless document all of the time. Why? he works for the company owners!!! He was not elected by the people and if you think so you should just go bury your head in the sand because you can do nobody any good.

Bahhhh Bahhh misfit sheep!!! Deny ignorance, seek out the roots. Washington DC is the military branch of a trinity that rules the world. The people of America always have and always will do whatever they tell or trick them into doing. Why because as they say, we are just stupid Americans....You could not even imagine how deep this all goes, read the book "old world secrets the omega project codes".



[edit on 4-12-2008 by seek4 truth]

Did not read all the posts but honestly, why would GWB try and enforce Martial law when he is already in his lame duck mode and has been for at least two months already. I think he is ready to get out of office as quick as possible and hand the big old pile of garbage over to someone new.

i know i know

this post may not be very helpful as far as adding info to the topic

but i must say


arent these types of threads getting old, seems like the same old info rehashed over and over again


yea we're in debt

yea our economys down

yea all these other countries own us or whatever


but lets get down to the basics

lets think about things pretty realistically

worst case scenario our government fails

some other country takes over

all the gangs/militias and armed citizens fight back and its a revolution

and theres nothing anyone can do about it, bottom line, live your life, try to plan for the future, and be armed, because you dont want to be the only one without a gun when all hell breaks lose

but what worries me, is the more this subject arrises, and the more the mainstream claims americas going to get hit with a nuke or bio attack within the next couple years

youre just putting these ideas into people heads, just zip it, quietly plan with your freinds and family and live your life


lets say bush does implement marial law

you really think all the people in the us are going to be round up and put in prisons and concentration camps?

yea i dont think so

im not exactly saying the gangs and militias will be the saviors but i think its definetly something thats overlooked when all these doomsday threads come up

A few months ago you were all in a tizzy about Bush canceling the presidential election. Whatever happened to that? I like conspiracy theories but have yet to see one pan out.

I personally could not imagine living each day actually believing all this doom and gloom stuff I read about here. I know I have read too much if I have problems getting to sleep at night.

As a member of the military, which means I am one of them according to my friends at ATS, I have not seen/heard/rumored/etc anything about this stuff. The US Army simply does not have enough people in uniform to patrol the streets. The Air Force only has something like 15 people qualified to fire an M16. The Navy might have a couple of old guys who remember how to shoot. Marines are the only US military branch I could imagine that would actually follow such a ridiculous order to keep citizens in check. They are the smallest group with about 200,000. Remember most Marines are whack jobs anyway. Then we have federal police which in it's entirety is smaller than the US Army. And these are total numbers... all military/federal organizations MUST have command in place to run the show. The actual number of warm bodies available to patrol street would be much lower.

Everyone is entitled to believe what they want.... remember it's the USA not N. Korea. But it's nice and sunny outside now, we don't get many of those days during the winter in Indiana, and I think I am going to enjoy it. Good luck with the paranoid delusions.

Well the Russians could not complain about Afganistan either, because they assisted North Vietnam in the Vietnam War, along with China.

As far as martial law, I do not see that happening unless it was some event on a scale that we do not want to see or we cannot imagine. An event that would not only change America but will also change the world.

I'm all for as many people being as prepared as possible to protect themselves in the event (however likely or unlikely) of the declaration of martial law, foreign gov't takeover or whatever you like. But there is something I'd like to know. What do all the armed citizens plan to do against say, a fully loaded Apache gunship w/ all the bells and whistles? I am not asking this to take any hope away from anyone at all. I'm just truly curious as to what, if anything, could be done to equalize the extremely one-sided tech advantage that would present itself in such a scenario. All the good intent and surplus .223 in the world won't do much against an M1A1, right? Also, I'd like to add that if there are feasible tactics to combat such weaponry out there that someone here may be privy to, please keep it to yourself. If there is a good defense, save it for when it counts. I just had to put these questions out there because it's always what crosses my mind in these types of discussions.

If you read what happened in Germany in 1937-40 with the Jews, just knowing what was going down and having some way to protect them self would have made a big difference. Remember the story of the Jews in the getto that with a few hand guns kept the Germans out and bleeding for weeks.
The deal is not to wage war on the Army/government but to make it a poor choice for the government to use the military against the people.
Every time (before the last 40 years) any government that has stripped the people of guns or weapons then there has been a government with no fear and the people were the victims.

I've got some random, off the cuff thoughts here.

reply to Agit8dChop:

"And not one American can complain, because we assisted in the slaughter of many russian troops in Afghanistan.
And our adventure is by NO WAY any more justified than the russians."

I beg to differ. The Soviets were in Afghanistan to "defend world Socialism" (prop up a puppet regime ), not because of any threat to Mother Russia. The Russian Embassy staff killed in Kabul as a pretext for invasion were killed by Afghans who took excepetion to "world Socialism" invading THEIR back yard. Iran, by contrast, threatens anyone who cares to be threatened. They are a threat to all, and especially stability amongst their neighbors, unless said stability is dictated by the mullahs in Iran. I support the Russian invasion of Georgia, by the way. Folks in Abkhazia have the same rights to self-determination as anyone else.

reply to Reddupo:

"This right doesn't matter to sheep full of fear. You won't get a preemptive takedown of any NWO by the people, and if suddenly everyone grew courageous and a physical revolution began...well let's just say the difference in weapons technology is a wee bit larger than it was when we colonists fought the British."

That "technical superiority" is of course the reason that Al-Qaida has been eradicated from the face of the earth once and for all, right? I'm not buying the "technical superiority" argument. Technology can be turned into a liability much pronto. Folks tend to rely on it way too much, and when it breaks, all they can do is sit down and cry.

reply to switching yard:

" Unfortunately, I think that if there is a "national emergency" and they declare martial law, your ISP won't work and the broadcast "news" you get will be spin.

When you find that you cannot connect to the Internet and they are saying on the radio and TV that we're under martial law and stay tuned for a message from the president, well, when that happens... just realize that "the news" is what the power elite want you to believe, not necessarily the truth.
The Internet would be shut down completely. Guaranteed. They will probably say foreign hackers shut it down."

Anyone who lets the TV news or the internet think for them has lost their freedom already. See the above reply about "technological superiority". These are great tools, but nothing more. You should be prepared to do without them. When the news reports about "terrorists" that are NOT screaming "allahu akbar!", and who seem to be targeting TPTB, instead of average (defenseless) folks, you might want to rethink the "terrorist" label. Remeber, one man's "terrorist" is another man's "freedom fighter".

reply to ashamedamerican:

"Don't get me wrong, I'm not normally a violent type of guy.
I was raised by old dried up hippes, I'm all for peace and love on earth, but there comes a time when every human has to see their own worth, and refuse to let anyone step on them for any reason."

Just like it says in Ecclesiastes, there is a time for everything. I like you, man. You got nothing to be "ashamed" of.

reply to whiteraven:

"The phrase "that deaf, dumb and blind man sure plays mean pinball" comes to heart."

Yeah, what he said. I gave you a star for that one.

reply to whiteraven:

"and the idea of going beyond the constitution sheds some light on Obama wanting to read more about Lincoln. "

Didn't that character that played John Titor say something about a president that wanted to be the next Lincoln?

reply to jimmyx:

"when it becomes serious, and not just some chatter on a website, courage is a lonely, fearful, and focused path. "

Roger THAT.

reply to boomchank:

In reply to your entire last post, I'll mention one thing, not elaborate, and leave it at that. Solution #1: terrain.

nenothtu out