Jesus literally means "Jehovah is salvation".

Jehovah literally means "Self existent".

Yehushua is then....SELF EXISTENT SALVATION.

God said, I will not meet you as a man...

No one can see the Living God, but the Son, he is the one cast down from the beginning of the world.

The "inspired' word that is truly in the original texts languages carries the clear and concise message of who "God" is. Who "the son of man" is.

reply to post by Kapyong

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I think Jesus was or is a montage. Probably created shortly after the failed Jewish Revolt of 66 AD. Or CE to be polite to our Jewish neighbors. Not at any one place or at any one time. The notion of Jesus gradually evolved until by the end of the second century CE (100-199 CE) he was REAL in the minds and more importantly, in the hearts of 1000s of people who shared the NEW religion largely concocted by St. Paul.

Of course there never was unanimity of thought in any Jewish group. Just sit for a half hour in the visitors gallery in the Knesset if you doubt me. As today, there were many opinions about Jesus and the appropriate place for their new religion in day to day life. Note: the highly touted Church Fathers exist only in retrospect and not prospectively. “Discovered” as needed.

The Jewish people had proved to be a difficult people to rule when their basic religious values were sharply contested and they had a charismatic leader. The Revolt of the Maccabees in 165 BCE was successful for a 100 years. Five generations. The Jewish people still celebrate that event in their festival of lights, at Hanukkah.

The cause of the Maccabees Revolt is generally given as when the Greek Seleucid King Antiochus IV attempted to bring all his subjects into conformity religion-wise. One king, one religion. (See the much later Peace of Westphalia 1648, which ended the Thirty Years War in a similar way).

Until 63 BC (BCE), the Hasmonean dynasty of the Maccabees ruled Judea. Then Roman general Pompey conquered what is today’s Lavant - the eastern Mediterranean area including Judea - and set in motion the sequence of events that led to the puppet King Herod the Great. Herod reigned from 37 BCE to 4 BCE. He was best known for Herod’s Temple and the redoubt at Masada. After Herod a Roman Procurator (like a conservator or trustee) was assigned to the territory that included Judea.

Note: Most secular scholars agree the first three kings of Israel were mythological. Saul, David and Solomon. Today’s Wailing or West Wall which ultra devout Jews claim is the LAST remnant of Solomon’s Temple are wrong. There was NO temple. Herod’s temple was the First (and last) temple. Oh, and the same goes for the Ark of the Covenant Indiana Jones (and 1000s of others) have looked so hard to find. It is noteworthy that NO Jewish writer after the Babylonian Captivity of 573 BCE ever mentions the Ark. Hmm?

In 66 CE, the Jewish people around Jerusalem again revolted. This time the revolt lasted 4 years as Rome took its time to assemble and march 3 legions to Judea. Jerusalem was captured in 70 CE. The last remnants of the rebels held out until 73 CE at the desert fortress and richly outfitted retreat best known to us as Masada.

The story of a mass suicide there is related only by Josephus and is now generally regarded as a great exaggeration if not made up out of whole cloth. Only 6 skeletons have been found there, not the 900 promised by Josephus. It is now sadly agreed that Prof. Yigael Yadin “salted” the area with the 10 tokens supposedly drawn by the surviving men in a suicide pact. Such is the stuff of legends! Both ancient and modern.

Of course, I must mention the LAST Jewish Revolt. The Simon Bar Kokhba revolt of 132 to 135 CE. It was at the end of this failed revolt that the Jewish Diaspora is said to have occurred. Jerusalem was utterly destroyed and the name of the area changed to Syria Palestina. That is not true either that ALL the Jewish inhabitants of Judea were expelled. It is true that all the Jewish inhabitants of Jerusalem were expelled. About 15,000. For centuries, Jewish people had lived all around the Mediterranean Sea first in Greek colonies - Carthage being the most notable - and then in Roman colonies - Alexandria being the largest.

I consider it notable and of great weight that the Jewish people who lived in Jerusalem when Bar Kokhba assumed power, were convinced that he was in fact the PROMISED MESSIAH. This tells me that the people in Jerusalem KNEW NOT of Jesus or his story as being told by the itinerant St. Paul and much modified over the following centuries.

The modern story of Jesus is a collection of myths mixed with outfight fabrications accumulated over the first 200-300 years of the current era, and which we have selected out the parts most appealing to the times. We have then shamelessly added to, taken from and altered that story.

The Jesus Study Group of the 1970s searched the Holy Scriptures and concluded only 4-5 words in the Sermon on the Mount were likely to have been spoken by Jesus, the Red Letter Edition to the contrary notwithstanding. (They unlike me, assumed Jesus was a real person).

Unfortunately for all of us interested in religion, Gutenberg invented the printing press in the mid-1400s. Before Gutenberg hardly anyone could read and even fewer could afford a book. The Jesus story could be altered as changing times dictated. But Gutenberg forever LOCKED us into this medieval time warp. Otherwise intelligent people are arguing over the most preposterous stories claiming they are true! If anyone really believed that, they would be treatable!

[edit on 12/7/2008 by donwhite]

reply to post by Kapyong

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To me, “true believers” closely resemble a flock of turkeys. A loud noise will cause all of them to turn and run and often many turkeys will die in the ensuing melee! Yet, you can make the same loud noise again and the same surviving turkeys will do a re-run of the first episode. I guess that’s why we call them “turkeys?”




[edit on 12/8/2008 by donwhite]

reply to post by Mozzy

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The most obvious proof of Jesus' existence is the Jewish Talmud , which also bears witness of Jesus being condemned to die at the same time in history for blasphemy.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS

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Nonsense. First, blasphemy was not a crime in Rome. Second, it seems the Talmud was written between 200 AD (CE) and 500 AD (CE). There is no reason to credit anything in the Talmud as historically accurate. Third, you ought to know people PRIOR to the Age of Enlightenment did not regard the distinctions between story and truth as we do today. Those good folks were totally credulous. I say the claim the TALMUD proves Jesus is both empty and fanciful. The only thing the Talmud proves is the durability of the Jewish people. AND their not particularly admirable mythology.



Never let a fact stand in the way of a fancy! Dream on.


[edit on 2/25/2009 by donwhite]

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

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I thought JESUS was the Greek version of the Aramaic for JOSHUA. Nothing more.

There you go again, scooping up the psychedelic mushroom dip! Or have you found a source for a sugar cube laced with Dr. Leary's lysergic diethylamide acid?

Gday,



The 12 are part of the story, there is no actual evidence them even existing.



The martyrdoms are STORIES from long afterwards.
Later stories supporting earlier stories.



The whole thing is a STORY.
Not history.
The martyrdoms are STORIES.


(Of course - even if one or two were true - so what?
People die for false beliefs all the time.)


Kapyong

Gday,



No it doesn't.
Which is why you failed to give a quote.



There are NO Jewish records from the 1st century.
Which is why you failed to cite any.




No she didn't.
Which is why you failed to cite any evidence.


Is that your approach to debate?
Just make stuff up?
Or did you hear this and just believe it without checking?


Kapyong

Gday,



You must be JOKING?
This is completely false.

Firstly - the TR is a very bad and late set of MSS, and it lead to one of the WORST of all translations - the KJV.

Furthermore - every single MSS of the NT is DIFFERENT to every other MSS. The reality is the total opposite of your claim.

It is clear you have never studied any of this, you appear to be repeating some nonsense you heard in a fundamentalist sermon.

Your claims have no connection with reality.


Kapyong

Gday,



We're not talking about dieties, we're talking about a person. Hercules was real, how could he not have been?

We're not talking about dieties, we're talking about a person. Dionysus was real, how could he not have been?

We're not talking about dieties, we're talking about a person. William Tell was real, how could he not have been?

We're not talking about dieties, we're talking about a person. Sherlock Holmes was real, how could he not have been?

See the problem?

Many many mythical persons have been believed to be real.
So what?

BELIEF is not proof.


Kapyong

Gday,



Really?
Why don't you QUOTE the Talmud?
Hmm?

Because it says all sorts of bizarre things about different people claimed to be Jesus, including :
* that he was born 100BC
* that he was stoned to death in Lydda
* that he had 5 disciples
* that he learned black magic in Egypt
* that he was the bastard son of a Roman soldier
* etc. etc

That is what these people who keep claiming the Talmud records Jesus never actually QUOTE the Talmud - because it says things COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to the usual story. (Apart from the fact that the Talmud is far too late anyway, as don has noted.)

How dishonest.


Kapyong


[edit on 26-2-2009 by Kapyong]

K, I heard the Ivory soap is the best way to painlessly remove the sand from your ears....once you pull up!

OT