Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by cropmuncher
the 12 disciples were taken from the 12 months of the year

No, there were 12 disciples because Israel had 12 tribes. This one I thought was fairly obvious.

Of course you could argue that there are 12 tribes because there are 12 months in a year. I could then argue that you have 10 fingers because there are 10 objects that make up our solar system.

I do not mean to stir the pot. But!... 'The 12 tribes of Israel' and the '12 months in the year' is a kind of wrong, why? Back then, it was like 2k years ago, they didnot have the same "system" of a calendar as to what we do have nowadays.

Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by cropmuncher
the 12 disciples were taken from the 12 months of the year

No, there were 12 disciples because Israel had 12 tribes. This one I thought was fairly obvious.

Of course you could argue that there are 12 tribes because there are 12 months in a year. I could then argue that you have 10 fingers because there are 10 objects that make up our solar system.

fair point. But did not the romans hijack the pagan belief system & mix it in with christianity to get them to switch? doesent that make for a fairly false representation of what it was supposed to be in the first place? We are about to celebrate xmas which is without doubt a pagan festival that the christians hijacked to make theirs look better, made all the stories fit in with the REAL pagan celebrations of the REAL sun etc , pinched the 3 day resurrection bit to save for jesuses death, chucked in another celebration with it as a little more leverage to convert them. Dont you think it's odd that its blatently made up? Im not trying to convince anyone not to cast religion aside as we would be here forever but it amazes me how duped believers are when they are worshiping a man who's whole life story is based on lie's.

[edit on 3-12-2008 by cropmuncher]

[edit on 3-12-2008 by cropmuncher]

Originally posted by gordonwest
I do not mean to stir the pot. But!... 'The 12 tribes of Israel' and the '12 months in the year' is a kind of wrong, why? Back then, it was like 2k years ago, they didnot have the same "system" of a calendar as to what we do have nowadays.

Actually your right - my mistake , the druids then were using a 13 month year as there were 13 lunar cycles as is represented at many pagan sites in europe, i forgot it was jesus = 1 + the 12 disciples = 13. I have not just made that fit either it honestly was a genuine oversight.

Mod Edit:Fixed quote tags

[edit on 4-12-2008 by GAOTU789]

Originally posted by cropmuncher

fair point. But did not the romans hijack the pagan belief system & mix it in with christianity to get them to switch? doesent that make for a fairly false representation of what it was supposed to be in the first place? We are about to celebrate xmas which is without doubt a pagan festival that the christians hijacked to make theirs look better, made all the stories fit in with the REAL pagan celebrations of the REAL sun etc , pinched the 3 day resurrection bit to save for jesuses death, chucked in another celebration with it as a little more leverage to convert them. Dont you think it's odd that its blatently made up? Im not trying to convince anyone not to cast religion aside as we would be here forever but it amazes me how duped believers are when they are worshiping a man who's whole life story is based on lie's

Jesus life was not based on any of those "holidays". They are in fact pagan, introduced when Constantine "blended" Christianity and paganisim for political gain. Jesus was as you know a Jew, He kept the Jewish holy days and feasts as ordained and consecrated by God. Not all Christians worship on Sunday nor celebrate the holidays you mention.

i'm surprised no one has brought up the "alexander the great did not exist" argument yet. it's pretty applicable to the discussion.

your argument is assuming that jesus was lord of the ENTIRE universe. this thread is to prove that he did exist. find me 5 well respected historians from the early A.D. period that conjured fictional characters to support their craft and i will begin to see your point!

In a recent poll 58% of people questioned believed that Sherlock Holmes was a real detective that lived in Victorian London.
Arthur Conan Doyle first published his Sherlock Holmes stories in 1887. That means that in the 121 years since the first story was published the character has become real in a lot of peoples minds.
many of the sources that you list wrote about events that happened even further back than that 121 years, thats not exactly proof. By your logic all of those following the Jedi religion in the future can legitimately use the star wars movies as proof of their belief because they tell the story of events that happened a long time ago in a galaxy far far away (In AD 150 Judea was far far away from Rome). In 3008 George Lucas could be used as an historical source.

Gday,

Originally posted by AshleyD
That was pasted from elsewhere. Another member has pasted that exact same list into several different threads on this subject. It's already been discussed on ATS and other websites I don't know how many times.

Yup,
it has been posted before - but not nearly as many times as faithful believers have preached their faithful beliefs.

As long as faithful believers keep preaching these beliefs, I'll post the facts that shows them wrong.


K.

they don't bother me very much, these days it's the business attitude that's worse than the religious attitude. or i guess you could just sum it up as people on the whole.

Is there really any solid proof for any deity that has existed?

It's a difficult task to do because during the time deities exercised a great amount of influence over men, the written word was either non existent or in its infancy. Almost all of the texts of that era were religious or government oriented, and who will take a religious text at face value except for those who follow it?

Will we ever know for sure if Jesus or any other gods existed? Probably not.

But it is interesting to note that the number of messiahs/gods/godly actions practically vanished when literature and moveable type spread throughout the world...

we're not talking about dieties, we're talking about a person. jesus was real, how could he not have been? did any of those historians tell stories about people with fifty arms that could turn peanuts into women?

Originally posted by Mozzy
we're not talking about dieties, we're talking about a person. jesus was real, how could he not have been? did any of those historians tell stories about people with fifty arms that could turn peanuts into women?

Yeah. Only two arms and legs, no morphing peanuts. Just able to defy physics and create matter out of thin air. There's no reason to bring hyperbole into the discussion, I was merely trying to extend my thoughts on the subject.

How could he not be real? By the fact that the only extensive writings about him are all in the Bible, written decades or over a century after his supposed existence, and even these gospels are pretty inaccurate. All other claims to his existence are dubious sources at best, are they not?

So, I'll stick to my previous statement. Will we ever know if he surely existed? Barring some huge archaeological discovery: no. Is the man or son of God written in the Gospels a good person that taught an excellent way of life and a model to live by? Definitely yes.

That's all I'm trying to say.