reply to post by indifferent

.....I just would like to have a constructive conversation.......

i got no problem with this. but if it is "constructive" conversation that you want, why no come to the table without the belittling remarks. have an open mind, and truly consider the answer some one on the other side of the table might give.

instead, you just sound like this....

Why is it that the more time goes by and the more advanced our technology and thought processes become that religion seems more and more something of the past that is holding us back?......I just do not get it.

they believe what they do because of the sum total of the experiences they have had, has led them to believe whatever they believe. you, have had a whole other sum total of experiences, that has led you to believe what you have chosen to believe in. neither of you will be able to prove either way that either of you are right. so the argument always comes back to a personal experience. for you, and for them. each with a different perspective, and result.





[edit on 3-12-2008 by JSR]

Im 32 years old. Throughout my childhood, and up untill 15-16 y/old, I was very much into 'church'. I stopped going, and stopped beleiving in so much of it. (slightly confused high school kid i was).

But, having been there/done that, my prespectives on religion frighten even myself. I watched as so called christians would say that all other "unsaved" people, even practicing catholics, were going to hell. (you know, that place of eternal pain and punishment!?!?and fire.. lol) that was about the time that I started realizing how messed up church was. I listened to so many sermons, attended prayer meeting, heard people speak in tounges, it goes on and on and on and on...

FEAR. One of the biggest, easiest, profound way to get peoples attention is to install fear into them. "Hey, you not saved. You dont have Jesus in your heart. That means you going to hell!!!" Then they would explain how bad hell was. Infinite pain and punishment tends to scare people. Now this person is scared. ( which brings me to metion that I have 3 children. and no matter what they do, i could not EVER allow them infinite pain)

GUILT. God sent his ONLY son to DIE for YOU and your SINS!! self explanitory.

GOOSBUMPS. Dont laugh, because it is true. People start praying for you, you start praying, everyone is telling you how your making the right choice for getting saved. Complete strangers are hugging you. End up all goosbumpy, BUT it feels good, and makes you happy.

I could keep going on for hours, but you get the point.
I, BY NO MEANS, am trying to belittle anyone who goes to church or practices whatever religion they happen to be. Im just stating what I saw for YEARS in a church that started out with around 500 people and grew to over 5000 people. My mom still goes to church, and we are very close. I respect her opinion, and she respects mine(tho im pretty sure she thinks im going to hell, lol).

So you ask how anyone could possibly take religion seriously. Its not that hard to do if you searching for something to fill what you think is a void in your life.

Originally posted by indifferent
I am asking this question seriously. I have had an infinite amount of conversations with religious people (of all faiths) that can only answer this question with a personal anecdote or story about seeing or feeling something special. Than I go and speak with people in the medical field and they end up telling me we are simply chemical reactions and they can explain to me down to the molecular level how we work and why.

But what they cannot, and will never be able to, tell you is why we work at all, and why we feel that life should make sense.

I'm agnostic, by the way. But I'm realistic about what the so-called hard sciences can and can't tell us. They may eventually be able to point out exactly when some ribose molecules floating around in the plasma first got attached to some amino groups, and from there how we get all the way to humans trying to make Artificial Intelligence.

But they can't tell us why we are.

As far as many of the specific points you ask about in your opening post, as I think you're aware they don't apply to all religions, or even all branches of Christianity. Many, if not most, scientists believe in a god of some sort. There is no necessary contradiction between science and religion, as long as science does the things it's good at (the what and how), and religion does the things it's good at (the why).

the question the OP asked is easy to answer. People are CONFUSED, as is obvious by this thread... and thus, if they were brought up in religion or shown religion, which in its fundemental teachings gives one meaning, they follow it to feel stability and security (both of which are selfish).

My question would be, does G-d give US meaning or do WE give G-d meaning.

Originally posted by dooper My question is, "how could anyone not take God seriously?"

Easily answered as well. We don't take Him seriously because we don't seek Him from a truly unselfish heart. As long as you have expectations on what He should be and what He should do for you, there is no serious way to seek Him.

"Not *my* will, but *your* will be done." Is G-d there for YOU or are you there for HIM?

I have had an infinite amount of conversations with religious people (of all faiths) that can only answer this question with a personal anecdote or story about seeing or feeling something special.

I hate to further confirm this concept, but it's the same case with me. I believe in a creator god, and I admit that there is no physical or logical evidence to back this belief up. It is simply a feeling that I have which I cannot seem to shake no matter how I try to rationalize it.

However, I try to steer clear of anthropomorphizing this deity. I like how Pat Condell put it. "Religion is a bit like dressing the invisible man. Once he has some clothes on, you can see him! But of course, you don't see him - you see the clothes. That's the problem. We've become so obsessed with the goddamned clothes that we've forgotten if there was ever anyone there to begin with."

So I don't follow a religion, and as a Deist, I think the best way to get to know god is by studying his creation. This world, this universe, this reality - and the properties of it and how it interacts. Unlike a book or a story or a myth... reality cannot be altered by man. It cannot be suppressed. It does not bend to our editing. It simply is. Knowledge, reason, logic... these are gifts to which mankind has been endowed either by god or by natural processes, but which none-the-less are precious to our understanding of our universe and our place in it.

Studying the natural world and our universe will realistically likely never tell us who exactly god is... but it at can at least better shape our perceptions of god by falsifying made up stories about him. A question that may never be answered, but at least safeguarded against blatantly false answers.

For these reasons, despite a belief in god, I tend to identify and side more with Atheists and Agnostics than most other flavors of Theists.

When you pray do you think your God is listening to you?

I tend not to pray in the traditional sense, but I do often give thanks to god (among many, many others) for what I have in this world. Does he listen? I don't know. He doesn't appear to. However, I find the act of humbling yourself and expressing gratitude for something you appreciate to be a very positive act. Even if I was not giving thanks explicitly to god, I would still want to express my gratitude if for not other reason than affirmation and to keep myself from taking things for granted too often.

[edit on 3-12-2008 by Lasheic]