I am asking this question seriously. I have had an infinite amount of conversations with religious people (of all faiths) that can only answer this question with a personal anecdote or story about seeing or feeling something special. Than I go and speak with people in the medical field and they end up telling me we are simply chemical reactions and they can explain to me down to the molecular level how we work and why. Yes, I admit some things in the world are unexplained, but I truly believe those are simply events that occur that we as human beings simply do not understand yet.

So again I ask, why would anyone take religion seriously? The Bible and other "holy" books to me are the equivalent to the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. Not a fan of either but I have read them. They are mentioned simply as examples. How about Mother Goose? Or Aesop's fables? Why do we not have the church of Aesop and Latter Day Saints? Or the United Church of Mother Goose? There is just as much evidence of their existence as there is for any "divine" being you may "pray" to or believe in. I hate to sound like a religion bashing atheist, but I am. And I am because I have seen religion ruin the lives of family, friends, and strangers. Wars are started for many reasons, but religion seems to top that list. I know there are many reasons for armed conflict but why would you fight over which mythical being you pretend to speak to? How, as a rational human being, can one believe that they speak to a omniscient, all powerful overlord who dictates the future and created everything in the universe/multiverse?

Questions I would like to pose to rational people who claim to be religious:

If there is free will, how can God know the future? If he knows the future than it has been determined at an earlier date and free will is an illusion.

Why can you not give credit or put blame on things that are obvious? The Christ figure on toast is a perfect example. We all know its BS, but still people believe and buy it for five figures on eBay. I saw that and wanted to cry. Honestly people. And when things go wrong maybe, just maybe, its that someone had a bad day, or you're just at the wrong place at the wrong time. Why must we attribute things to a supernatural entity?

How can you be so egocentric to believe that God, of any faith, would create Earth and we would be the only place with life? Have any of you religious people read a science book lately? Or gone to the Hubble Telescope site and just viewed the pictures of the cosmos? Is that not enough for you? Must you say "God made that", or "Glory be to God for creating those stars and planets." It makes me so mad when normal, intelligent people retard their own thought process just to believe in something they prefer to exist for who knows what reason.

For the Christians in the house: It seems to me from reading scripture and speaking to many devout and not-so-devout Christians that homosexuality is somehow a sin. I am a straight male for the record but how could you possibly equivocate someone's sexual orientation as a sin? It makes me sick. Have a conversation with some homosexual people and see if it was a choice or not. I bet you it ISN'T. So than why would God hate his own creation? Animals throughout the animal kingdom display homosexual behavior but are not cast out or viewed as inferior by other animals so why should we humans, as mammals, think that is OK? This whole banning gay marriage makes me sick and the people who voted against it are despicable and I honestly believe slightly retarded.

When you pray do you think your God is listening to you? Newsflash: if you were to sit down in a room or somewhere private and have a moment to yourself to think and reason and talk out a problem or issue with just yourself I bet, barring no previously-existing mental deficiencies, that you would arrive at a logical, and positive answer. Give credit to yourself before any kind of magic man.

The difference between religion and spirituality is that religion follows after something else blindly. Spiritual seekers follow after self and what makes them feel better regardless of the truth. Both are essentially seeking the same thing. Just one uses something outside itself to "lift them" and the other uses something inside themselves to "lift them."

the Truth seekers follow after the truth w/out being blind and w/out the selfishness. Doesn't matter to them how they perceive themselves or how others perceive them.

Originally posted by indifferent
Questions I would like to pose to rational people who claim to be religious:

I don't consider myself religious. I am a Christian with a whole lot of questions and a lot of dissatisfaction with the church (at least in the church in the US).

I do think I'm rational and open-minded, and I was inclined to answer your questions. But as I read through your post, I couldn't help but think they're pretty loaded and emotionally charged. I don't think you want to hear answers. I think you're just looking for a fight.

So...I think I'll suffice it to say I am a believer in pursuit of the truth. Truth is found in science, yes. It is also found in experience (what you call anecdotes or feelings). In that respect, it would be difficult for someone who is not open-minded to consider what I have found to be truth through my experiences. My guess is you would just shoot it down, and then the whole conversation is not a conversation but a fight with pre-drawn conclusions. Right?

I am sorry for what seems like ranting, but I feel like this must be said for several reasons. I want to know why people are afraid of me when I say I am an atheist, or as Mr. Hitchens puts it an "anti-theist". People hear me say that and they run as though I am about to eat their children or engage in some kind of act of evil. Why is it that atheists are considered to be the bottom of the barrel in society? Why can't an atheist run for president?

I believe people need to start looking more closely at themselves. By this I mean they should be more proud of themselves when they do something well as opposed to thanking a God. For example, why do professional athletes thank the big guy upstairs after a homerun or touchdown, but do not curse the same guy when they strike out or fumble? Wouldn't that be great? If a superstar athlete or performer stunk up the joint during a performance and when asked what happened they say, "You know, I think God just screwed me today!" I would pay millions to hear that one. And to add to that people should also take more responsibility when they screw up. No it wasn't God who made a mistake, it was YOU.

Why not view the things man has done and created over the thousands of years of existence as miracles of thought, ingenuity, technology, compassion, and the human spirit. Why must you be so stupid to infuse some kind of fairy tale to the equation? I don't thank God for the sun shining everyday, I thank gravity and the orbits of the planets and stars and the magnetosphere and the atmosphere and oxygen and carbon and so on and so on. Not a god or gods. Now I know some religious people will read that last part and say well your thankful for that but you should be thanking where that came from and that is god. NO IT IS NOT. And no I do not have faith of any kind in religion because faith is defined as the belief in something without sufficient evidence, and I'll be damned when that day shows up. I have faith that UFO's exist because of witnesses and pictures and videos and investigations. Am I 100% they are aliens? Hell No. But at least there is some kind of proof or practice in trying to identify them rationally. Whereas with religion it is always based on the individual. Well I say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I am tired of religion having a say in forming domestic and foreign policy. I am tired of religion having a place in school. I am tired of religious holidays that don't even celebrate real events. Christmas=the birth of Christ? Yea and I'm Jack Frost. If the only evidence for god and religion is the individuals and their stories of how God pulled them through a tough time than I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR IT. Especially when my son/daughter is in school and sees the 10 commandments. Than I hear, "Daddy, what are the 10 commandments and where do they come from?" You know what, I should never have to explain they were handed to a crazy man on the top of a mountain thousands of years ago and he said we have to listen because if not than we are going to suffer for eternity. That sounds like the birthplace of authoritarianism to me. I'm screwed even after I die? What a crock. Hahahaha. If you believe in heaven or hell I am sorry folks but you have got to be kidding me.

And Noah grabbed two animals of every kind for 40 days and 40 nights and they didn't eat each other, or no one got hungry, or nothing bad happened. Its magical, its all magical.

This goes for all religions. I am sorry Chrisitanity is taking the brunt of my rant but you know what, they deserve it. Church is for the weak. Yea I said it. I am all for supporting and helping out in the community but why does religion need to be the thing to bring everyone together? Why not hey everyone this is where we live, so lets make it a nice place. Not hey everyone lets get together because if we don't show up somewhere on my one day off a week we will all suffer for enternity. YEAHHHH! Can't Wait! See You There!

HA! I grew up in the church and it was all I knew. I didn't have sex until my early (early) twenties because I was afraid of going to hell. :embarrassed smiley: That and all the aids fear mongering of the 80's. :big embarrassed smiley: In my twenties I came to peace with being wrong and persued meditation for awhile. Now I am interested in Buddhism and Taoism but I know stories are stories.

I was actually thinking of this in terms of society admitting to itself that our mythical god figure, grey beard flowing robes and all that, wouldn't flick an asteroid away from a collision path with our fine planet. I was also thinking about the seeming uptick in people getting caught in compromising positions (Minn. Hilton upper mgmt. orgy, housewife in football stadium loo doing unmentionable things) and wondered if people are losing their bearings without the comforting crutch of a benevolent and protective god figure.

Religion grounds people in tradition and continuity. It also, as Carlin used to say, always needs money. God is not out there. God is here. We are the eyes of the world. God is life. I forgot where I was going with this.

I'm found that dogmatic religious people usually fall into one of 3 catagories:

A. Those who carry the faith on becaue they were raised that way, and/or there is a strong cultural expectation to do so.

B. Those who may be rational enough to see the flaws of religion, but have suffered abuse or trauma in their life and fall back on dogma because it is easier for them to rationalize what has happened to them when the ascribe to a system that makes everything appear black and white.

3. Those who see a spiritual entity of any sort and assume that its an "angel" or "Demon" (or whatever term is apropriate) and beleive that this validates the the teachings of a certain religion. For instance a lot of Chirstians I know saw a bright light and beleived they had seen Jesus, or a dark entity and beleived that this was Satan or a demon, and that was enough to nudge them towards the entire belief system.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by asmeone2]

Edit to ad:
4. Those who "convert" to keep the peace when a spouse or other close family member converts.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by asmeone2]

Sorry, before I even finished ranting I have gotten two replies, YIPPIE! This is my third ever thread and I have only gotten two replies collectively.

For all readers and responders: I am not going to simply shoot down any answers but I would like to hear answers from a multitude of sources as opposed to just the people I have been fortunate enough to speak with about this topic. I am sorry for the negative connotation in the first two parts of this post, but I do admit, as with most people, that religion is one of the hot button topics and it gets me motivated. Not motivated to hate or bash, but motivated to seek the truth and to seek that truth by conversing with as many people as possible. I know I do not know all of the answers and never will, but through conversation and constructive dialogue I believe we can all learn from each other and maybe even arrive at some agreed upon answers to some of the questions I have asked.

So again I hope to see some answers to the questions and I am sorry for initially coming off as an angry man. Quite the contrary actually, I am a fun loving, conversational young man who loves nothing more than to challenge other's thought processes and have mine challenged as well. And where better to do that than ATS. I love this site for this reason and I am sure you all do too. And what topic matters more in life than religion and people's philosophy on life and why and how everything came about. Thank you for reading if you make it through the whole thing and I hope to hear from you soon!

I believe that there is a 'god' being that created everything.
I do not believe that any human on this planet has the slightest clue about that being though.

This is just my personal opinion so I apologize if this offends anyone but I believe that organized religions are for people who need something to believe in.
I think they were created as a form of control, and some people find comfort in the beliefs they find in those religions.
There is nothing wrong with people wanting/needing something to believe in, I just don't understand why so many believe that they must follow an organized religion.

At the risk of offending even more people I think it has something to do with the reason why so many people feel that they must support one sports team or another, it gives them a group they can identify with.

It also has alot to do with the fact that most people are raised into a group where you are a 'bad person' if you don't follow the religion you are expected to.

That being said I think organized religions have done far more harm than good throughout history and shouldn't be allowed any longer, this would leave too many people without their 'anchor' though and will never happen.

The day that mankind no longer needs someone else to tell him/her how to seek god, is the day we step out of our crib.
I'll take Buddhism over any organized religion any day of the week thank you very much.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by ashamedamerican]

Originally posted by stikkinikki
God is not out there. God is here. We are the eyes of the world. God is life.

Beautifully said my friend. I think that is an excellent way of putting it for many people and I failed to see it like that. Thank you for the insight. And I love the Carlin reference, I have not even begun on the whole financial issue with the church.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by indifferent]

As George Carlin so elegantly puts it, "Religion has actually convinced people that there is an invisible man in the sky, that watches everything we do"

I grew up in a baptist family. Baptists are the worst of the worst. I got swats (not by my parents mind you, but by a strange old man that everybody treated like he had some kind of authority over my life) for not having the right socks on when I went to baptist school.

You cannot argue with these people. Anything that questions the bible is automatically rejected as heresy.

I have found that most adhere to a certain religion because, it makes them feel like they know the one unanswerable question in life: what happens when we die? If you know what happens when we die, than you have it all figured out!


I realized that the only defense we have against religious nuts is to just take massive amounts of shrooms and say, ok go ahead i'm listening.

I apologize for bringing up the sexual orientation point. I recently had a conversation with a religious leader, I will not include the particular faith, but he seemed to be a loving, caring individual and than when homosexuality came up it was as if someone turned on the "hate switch." He even went as far as to say that homosexuality is taking over and he even drew similarities to bestiality and other despicable sex acts. It made me think. Now I thought these were adults on this site and we could maturely discuss an array of topics, but it seems that homosexuality is off-base, or a no-no here on ATS. So I apologize for bringing it up, but ultimately the point I was asking about was how could people who claim to love one another because we are all equal in God's eyes hate or condemn homosexuality?

Its just a question people, you do not need to answer it if you don't want to.

Originally posted by indifferent
I apologize for bringing up the sexual orientation point. I recently had a conversation with a religious leader, I will not include the particular faith, but he seemed to be a loving, caring individual and than when homosexuality came up it was as if someone turned on the "hate switch." He even went as far as to say that homosexuality is taking over and he even drew similarities to bestiality and other despicable sex acts. It made me think. Now I thought these were adults on this site and we could maturely discuss an array of topics, but it seems that homosexuality is off-base, or a no-no here on ATS. So I apologize for bringing it up, but ultimately the point I was asking about was how could people who claim to love one another because we are all equal in God's eyes hate or condemn homosexuality?

Its just a question people, you do not need to answer it if you don't want to.

I dont care if you talk about gay people, I just think its gross. And how come you wont bring up the perticular faith? Was the original post aimed at how religion is rediculous in general, or how religion is rediculous becuase of the belief that homosexuality is wrong. Im confused now what your trying to get at.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by DroolsAlot]