Are Atheists Morally Superior To Theists?, page 3


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ATS Members have flagged this thread 3 times


reply posted on 7-12-2008 @ 01:29 AM by Xtrozero
Originally posted by The All Seeing I
Excellent point on the nazis, a detail i had come across when i was researching/writing a tinwiki entry on nazism (still a work in progress), but i had complete forgot about this often ignored/unknown fact, next time i'm tweaking my entries i'll have to add this.


But the Nazis' reason to try and take over the world was not based on religion even though some might have been religious.

Through history you can see when religion is totally removed the human race is not very nice at all. You see an extreme lack of value for life.


reply posted on 7-12-2008 @ 03:01 AM by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by Xtrozero


And so would this be true on the micro scale? Do individual people with zero religion have complete lack of value for life



reply posted on 9-12-2008 @ 03:03 AM by Astyanax
reply to post by juveous

when I used the word pleasures I should have maybe used a more vague synonym how bout feelings or emotions instead.

This was precisely my point: 'pleasure' is incorrect. But a 'vague synonym' will only make matters worse. In the words of the original empiricist,

The uneasiness a man finds in himself upon the absence of anything whose present enjoyment carries the idea of delight with it, is that we call desire; which is greater or less, as that uneasiness is more or less vehement. Where, by the by, it may perhaps be of some use to remark, that the chief, if not only spur to human industry and action is uneasiness. For whatsoever good is proposed, if its absence carries no displeasure or pain with it, if a man be easy and content without it, there is no desire of it, nor endeavour after it; there is no more but a bare velleity, the term used to signify the lowest degree of desire, and that which is next to none at all, when there is so little uneasiness in the absence of anything, that it carries a man no further than some faint wishes for it, without any more effectual or vigorous use of the means to attain it. Desire also is stopped or abated by the opinion of the impossibility or unattainableness of the good proposed, as far as the uneasiness is cured or allayed by that consideration.

Locke, An Essay Concerning Human Understanding II.20.vi

My emphasis.


reply posted on 9-12-2008 @ 01:51 PM by juveous
Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by juveous

when I used the word pleasures I should have maybe used a more vague synonym how bout feelings or emotions instead.

This was precisely my point: 'pleasure' is incorrect. But a 'vague synonym' will only make matters worse.

I was not trying be empirical. It was a quite simple question that could have been answered philosophically in great detail, or simple and understandable. If empiricism is what you are looking for, don't accuse what is vague, ask for an elaboration.



reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 08:47 AM by papabryant
Originally posted by The All Seeing I
Obviously not all atheists subscribe to the same philosophy of life. There are some who are complete nihilistic moral relativists, others are altruistic secular humanists. I am not suggesting that Atheism leads to a moral society, but logic and rational thinking. A society who thinks rationally is far less likely to commit or allow atrocities to happen... noting how religious fervor has played a major role in such atrocities over the centuries.

Religion gives many people reason to hate homosexuals, supporting harmful abstinence-only sex education, to deny oneself a life-saving blood transfusion if the need arose, to believe that women are a “weaker vessel” and are incapable of leading/guiding/instructing a male, or to encourage a lack of concern/responsibility for the planet due to a belief of a fast-approaching armageddon where/when God will come to clean house.

When you just lay out some of the basic facts... it's not hard to see the conspiracy/hypocrisy in religion.

[edit on 2-12-2008 by The All Seeing I]


First off, you make some really specious assumptions -

*Only 7% of all the wars ever fought since 2480 BCE have ANY religious basis at all, according to the Encyclopedia of Warfare.

*Abstinence-based sex ed works far more effectively than condom distribution - AIDS rates in Africa where abstinance is taught are proof of that.

*Only 5 Christian denominations deny blood transfusions or medical care from doctors as a matter of doctrine.

*I know of no denominations that say women are incapable of being used as teachers, even if they adhere to notions of assigned gender roles.

*Only that idiot protesting soldier funerals "hates" gays, and most Christians would deny Fred Phelps a seat at the communion table until he repents of his hatred.

*Opposition to gay rights or the agenda of gay leadership does not nor has it ever constituted hatred.

*And where do you get the absurd notion that opposition to the environmental agenda stem from premillenial dispensation? (Mine is based on hard science, which shows that we've been in a 10 year cooling trend rather than heating up as Gore and others claim and want us to base legislation on.)

I would invite you to Google the rate of altruistic giving done by Christians, Jews and atheists.

You will find who is the real altruists then....

[edit on 10-12-2008 by papabryant]


reply posted on 11-12-2008 @ 12:17 PM by FSBlueApocalypse
Originally posted by papabryant
First off, you make some really specious assumptions -

*Only 7% of all the wars ever fought since 2480 BCE have ANY religious basis at all, according to the Encyclopedia of Warfare.


I would like to see how they came up with that statistic

*Abstinence-based sex ed works far more effectively than condom distribution - AIDS rates in Africa where abstinance is taught are proof of that.


Say what? Every study ever done on Africa shows that abstinence only education only helped spread AIDS worse then areas where information was freely available.

*Only 5 Christian denominations deny blood transfusions or medical care from doctors as a matter of doctrine.


And that's 5 too many

*I know of no denominations that say women are incapable of being used as teachers, even if they adhere to notions of assigned gender roles.

Quite a few evangelical denominations believe women have no place outside the home. I know Billy Graham has said similar statements when discussing the issue of women priests.

*Only that idiot protesting soldier funerals "hates" gays, and most Christians would deny Fred Phelps a seat at the communion table until he repents of his hatred.

Again, there are quite a few Christian denominations speaking about how God hates gays and says they're going to hell.

*Opposition to gay rights or the agenda of gay leadership does not nor has it ever constituted hatred.

Then what is it? Traditional family values? At the very least it's constructed out of fear and denying basic human rights.

*And where do you get the absurd notion that opposition to the environmental agenda stem from premillenial dispensation? (Mine is based on hard science, which shows that we've been in a 10 year cooling trend rather than heating up as Gore and others claim and want us to base legislation on.)

The hard science backed by oil companies or hard science done by scientists?
Here's a video discussing the various complaints on Global warming


I would invite you to Google the rate of altruistic giving done by Christians, Jews and atheists.

You will find who is the real altruists then....


I believe Jesus said something about vanity and bragging about one's works.

[edit on 10-12-2008 by papabryant]


reply posted on 11-12-2008 @ 02:32 PM by juveous
reply to post by blowfishdl


It would have been like saying whether having theistic beliefs influences you to behave with better or worse morals than someone who denies theism.


reply posted on 14-12-2008 @ 09:58 AM by papabryant
Originally posted by FSBlueApocalypse
I would like to see how they came up with that statistic


If you cannot find it in a library in your area (try at a local college), then check out pg 79-121 on Vox Day's book The Irrational Atheist (you can download the e-book for free here). Day used the text as the centerpiece of his dismantling of the "religion=war" argument.


Say what? Every study ever done on Africa shows that abstinence only education only helped spread AIDS worse then areas where information was freely available.


I'm afraid you've been sold a false story. Find the book AIDS in Africa - A Betrayal by Edward Green (A review of the book is available at The Weekly Standard. In Uganda, which used an abstinence only program, HIV infection rates dropped sharper than in any other nation in Africa. Other African nations began to follow suit, until the threat of being cut off fom American and other foreign aid began. It is a scandal that is completely unreported.

Here is another article from the Heritage Foundation on the subject.

And that's 5 too many


Well, while you and I see eye to eye on the need to utilize doctors when sick of injured, the issue of freedom of conscience is not to be treated lightly. Whether that conscience is informed by religious or secular sources, it is still theirs to follow and cannot be taken away with out right of due process. While it is tempting to say that withholding medical treatment to a child is abuse, legally and morally its not that simple; if the motive is to harm the child then yes, it is abuse. If there is a complete lack of concern one way or another for the child, then yes there is abuse. But if there is a genuine concern for the child's wellbeing, but a severe disagreement on how best to make that happen, there is no abuse, legally or morally.


Quite a few evangelical denominations believe women have no place outside the home. I know Billy Graham has said similar statements when discussing the issue of women priests.


Having defined roles for men and women is not the same as a complete ban on women in leadership roles. The Assemblies of God frown on women pastors, yet when Pastor Charles Thomas of Crystal Springs AG in Jacksonville Florida died, his wife Kay took over with the blessings of the denomination.

Again, there are quite a few Christian denominations speaking about how God hates gays and says they're going to hell.


We must be careful to make sure we are hearing what we think we're hearing. While I have no doubt there are Phelps clones out there, warning people of the consequences of their actions and offering an alternative is different than pronouncing them condemned and writing them off.


Con't
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