"We have found the Messiah." John 1:41

reply to post by Simplynoone


Talking of twisting words...

Jakyll why on earth would we need to go by what Judaism believes ? When they themselves do not even really go by the OT scriptures .

I never said go off their beliefs.I said look at the OT from their p.o.v.1st.It was their Holy Scripture long before it became part of Christianity,their ancestors wrote it,it tells the history of their people,so they just might have better understanding of it...And please can you clarify comment about Judaism not following the OT.

They are NO DIFFERENT as far as being APOSTATE as our own Churchs are today...They also MISSED THEIR OWN MESSIAH .....they AIDED IN HIS DEATH ..they begged for him to be KILLED by the ROMANS ....they MOCKED him and spewed HATRED AT HIM ...

I have clearly shown that Jesus can't possibly be the Messiah of the Hebrews/Jews.Care to back up you're claim that he is.

And I also had links to show where SOME JEWS do certainly believe in a HELL ..but they think it will be only a temporary place (like for 12 months) they also believe in a form of Pergatory sort of like the Catholics do ..

Some Jews might believe that now,but there is no concept of Hell or the Devil in Judaism.They have a Purgatory where souls/spirits wait to be judged.It is a place of purification.

BOTH of you have totally gone off your rocker with what scripture is saying (sorry but its true) it is like satan in here TWISTING THE SCRIPTURES

Apart from quoting scripture on the geneaology of Jesus you have done little to refute my argument.Show me where Jesus fulfilled the prophecies mentioned in the OP.

Seriously yall need to get a life and if you dont like this book ...Then WHY NOT FIND ONE YOU DO LIKE ..and pick it to death ...because YOUR OFFENDING me ...JESUS GAVE HIS LIFE FOR ME >.AND YOU ...how can you dishonor him like this ? .(it really brings tears to my eyes and hurts my heart) ............but hey I guess its ok for yall to offend others with your blasphemy but its not ok for them to offend you eh ...why dont YOU both practice what you preach as well ? Since both of you are VERY QUICK to point that out to others when your offended ...

Time of the month dear?

You seemed to be under the false impression that this thread is about calling Jesus a liar,a fraud and a fake.Yet nowhere have i said this.In fact,i've said the exact opposite.Re-read the OP.I clearly say that Jesus is not,and can not be,the Messiah of the Jews,but that doesn't make him a liar or a lunatic.

Now,if you cannot calm down and have a rational debate then goodbye and good riddance!

reply to post by Simplynoone


Apology accepted.

I wonder though,did you actually read all that you quoted?

I am familiar with the site you used and have read the stuff you pasted several times.Two statements from your source are worth a 2nd look.

The word "moshiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "moshiach" will be used throughout this page.

It has been said that in every generation,a person is born with the potential to be the moshiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the moshiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the moshiach, then that person is not the moshiach.

I would say that this site backs up my argument up,not yours.

Less haste,More speed.


[edit on 2-12-2008 by jakyll]

reply to post by justamomma


[The messiah that was prophesied was clearly defined in Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

The redemption is clearly from physical enemies and not some mystical spiritual redemption. And the one coming from Bethlehem was not defined as a wondering preacher and miracle worker/healer.]

About the DIFFERENCES in his first and Second Coming ......
Instead of posting endless scriptures I am just going to leave a link for you to read if your interested ....I did go over the link and I pretty much agree with what it is in ..(all scriptures are given to prove his case) ..

Enjoy
www.earlysda.com...

THE JEWISH BELIEFS ABOUT HELL

Note that this description is derived mostly from the Zohar, a 12th century work that evolved from the mystical writings of R' Shim'on bar Yochai (2nd century). The Zohar is the central writing of Kabbalah.]
In general, and in contrast to some other religions, in day-to-day life Jews don't pay much attention to questions like this. The focus of Jewish life is living according to G-d's will as expressed in the Torah. What happens afterwards is up to G-d.

That said, traditional Judaism does address this question. To put it shortly, our beliefs in resurection and afterlife vary widely. Some believe it is part of the Messianic era. Some consider it an era of its own, after the messianic one. It's a matter of debate in Jewish tradition as to whether the post resurection life is permanent, or temporary. Nachamides believes that the ultimate reward, the "World to Come" is that post-resurrection life, and therefore it must be eternal. Maimonides opines that the ultimate reward is the relatively direct experience of G-d that a soul can have when not encumbered with a body and its desires. Therefore he understands the phrase "World to Come" to refer to the non-physical existance after life, and that's man ultimate reward. He returns to that reward after a second, resurrected life. This is because Maimonides believes it's because man can only face his judgement in the same condition as when he sinned. Since he sinned while in a body, he is returned to that body to be judged. R' Yosef Albo agrees with Maimonides that the post resurrection life isn't permanent. To be specific, he believes that the lifespan will be 1,000 years -- the length of time Adam would have lived after eating from the forbidden fruit (had he not given away 70 years for someone else). His reason for this second life, though, is very different. Albo writes in the Ikkarim (Fundamentals) that in this life, man masters the art of self-perfection in the face of adversity -- disease, threat of poverty, and everything else that could go wrong in life. In the next life, the only challenges are internal, there will be no external impediments. It's therefore a second step in personal development, allowing for more refinement in one's ability to enjoy the World to Come upon return. In the early 20th century, Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook (cheif Rabbi of British Mandate Palestine) wrote that the resurection occurs by the end of the illusion that separates this universe from heaven.

Now, for the more mystical explanation. Keep in mind that there are dissenting viewpoints, though this is the dominant one.

A living person consists of both body and soul. Both are complex in structure and this short answer can't possibly address the details. To summarize briefly, when the body dies, if the person merits it, a small portion of the soul remains with it to keep it connected with the soul's source, anticipating the general revival of the dead at the time that G-d decrees. Different parts of the remainder of the soul may go to different places. One might be reincarnated into a new body in an attempt to rectify another of its spiritual aspects, or for other purposes. One part might go to a level of Paradise. Another might go to Gehinnom for a period, to remove the sins of that life and prepare it for a future one. Another part might join temporarily with an already living person, to assist it with its rectification and in the process gather more merit. The reassignments of the soul continues until the time that G-d decrees.

Rabbinic afterlife teachings varied in different places and times, and was never synthesized into one coherent philosophy. As such, the different descriptions of the afterlife are not always consistent with each other. This is especially true for the descriptions of "Olam Haba", the world to come. In some rabbinic works this phrase refers to the messianic era, a physical realm right here on Earth. However, in other works this phrase means Gan Edan, Paradise (in Heaven, so to speak), a purely spiritual realm. At various points in the afterlife journey, the soul is said to encounter:
*Hibbut ha-kever, the pains of the grave
*Dumah, the angel of silence
*The angel of death
*The Kaf ha-Kela, the catapult of the soul
*Gehenna (purgatory) and Gan Eden (Heaven; Paradise)

A discussion of the classic rabbinic view of the afterlife, including these topics and more, can be found in an essay by Rabbi Zalman Schacter Shalomi called "Life in the hereafter: A tour of what's to come", found at www.elevated.fsnet.co.uk...

Gehenna is fairly well defined in rabbinic literature. It is sometimes translated as "hell", but Jews must take note that the Christian version of hell is different from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Some Christians believe that hell is an abode of eternal torment where sinners go, and is also for anyone who does not accept Jesus as their messiah and G-d. Other Christians believe Hell is a place of separation from G-d (which, for Christians, is torture enough), from which believers are eventually saved by Jesus. Roman Catholics believe that Hell is a place of eternal suffering—physical, mental and spiritual suffering. In the Roman Catholic view of Hell, the physical pain is constant and severe; but the worst torture of Hell is the knowledge that they will never see G-d and that they will remain in Hell for eternity. For Roman Catholics, Hell is permanent and eternal. For Roman Catholics, the soul that has deliberately and knowingly disobeyed G-d's commandments in life and that remains in a state of mortal sin upon death has through it's own free will damned itself to Hell for all eternity. Roman Catholics also have the notion of Purgatory, which is for souls that are truly repentant, but not in the state of grace upon death. Purgatory is similar to Hell in that there is physical suffering, the Roman Catholic belief is that the soul will return to G-d when it is purged of its sins. Purgatory can last a day or thousands of years depending on the amount of purging the individual soul requires.

However, for Jews, gehenna—while certainly a terribly unpleasant place—is not hell. The majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in hell forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months. It is a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden [Heaven], and where all imperfections are purged. [In this sense, it is somewhat similar to the Roman Catholic purgatory, however the time period has a definate maximum]. Gehennom (lit: the valley of Hinnom, in Jerusalem; i.e. hell) is the sinner's experience in the afterlife. In other words, it's the same "place" as gan eiden (lit: the garden of Eden; i.e. heaven) — it's the perspective of the individual that makes it one or the other.

In some descriptions of the afterlife, we find that beyond Gan Eden there is a little known realm called the otzar, the divine treasury of souls; this is also called the tzror ha-hayyim, the bundle of life. This otzar is a transcendent realm of human souls, in the highest spheres of creation. Before souls are born they are said to come from this treasury, and they return they at some point after death.

Souls are said to originate in a realm called the 'guf' (Avodah Zarah 5a, Nedarim 13b, Yevamot 62a), from which they descend to the earthly real to animate human bodies. After death, these souls return to the otzar, or tzror ha-hayyim. (Shabbat 152a; Pesikta Rabbati 2:3)

According to the Kabbalah [Jewish mysticism] every human has at least one element in their soul; with the proper study a person can eventually develop two higher levels of the soul. A common way of explaining the three parts of the soul is as follows:

1.Nefesh - the lower part, or animal part, of the soul. Is linked to instincts and bodily cravings.
2.Ruach - the middle soul, the spirit. It contains the moral virtues and the ability to distinguish between good and evil.
3.Neshamah - the higher soul, or super-soul. This separates man from all other lifeforms. It is related to the intellect, and allows man to enjoy and benefit from the afterlife. This part of the soul is provided both to Jew and non-Jew alike at birth. It allows one to have some awareness of the existence and presence of G-d.

The "Raaya Meheimna," a later addition to the Zohar, posits that there are in fact two more parts of the human soul, the chayyah and yehidah. These parts were considered to represent the sublimest levels of intuitive cognition, and were only within the grasp of very few individuals.
4.Chayyah - The part of the soul that allows one to have an awareness of the divine life force itself.
5. Yehidad - the highest plane of the soul, in which one can achieve as full a union with G-d as is possible.

According to the Zohar, after death each aspect of the soul undergoes a different experience on the afterlife journey. The lower levels of the soul are purified and purged of physical and emotional attachments, while the higher levels experience transcendental bliss. The nefesh temporarily remains with the body in the grave, undergoing the Hibbut Ha-Kever, the suffering of the grave. Simultaneously, the Ruach experiences Gehenna for 12 months. "Gehenna is conceived of as a purification process in which the psychic remnants from the previous life are purged and transformed. This purgation process lasts only twelve months and is tormentingly painful in direct proportion to each individual's lived life experience. [Simcha Paull-Rapahel ] After leaving Gehenna, the ruah then permanently enters the Lower Gan Eden.
CONTINUED

[edit on 2-12-2008 by Simplynoone]

After death the Neshama, since it not subject to being tainted by sin, goes to Gan Eden Elyon, the Upper Gan Eden, where it experiences divine reward and bliss. The hayyah and yehidah also return to Upper Gan Eden immediately after death, and become as one with G-d as is possible. "Those who have awakened these dimensions of their being are able to perceive the infinite grandeur of the divine realms, to enter the everflowing celestial stream - described by the Zoha as the "bundle of life". [Paull-Rapahel]

Given all this, what happens to the soul of the nonbeliever? The most common belief in contemporary traditional Jewish communities is that all souls go to the after-life. Nearly all, barring a handful or two in all of human history, eventually end up in Gan Eden (roughly: heaven), even non-believers. Maimonides (a medieval Jewish thinker) opined that non-believers cease to exist upon death. His reasoning was that the ability to exist eternally is G-d's, and is only acquired by the soul to the extent that the soul knows of, and therefore shares some of the form of, G-d. This opinion was more popular in the medieval period, but no longer captures much attention, since around the early 19th century. At that time, the Chassidic and Mussar movements influenced Orthodox thought. The Aristotilian influence of the medieval thinkers like Maimonides faded in favor of other, equally old, approaches to the problem. All of these notions have roots in the Talmud (our earliest written rabbinic texts) and earlier. It is just a matter of which approach to G-d from within that tradition people follow. [Note: While you may have heard of Chassidim, there are few if any Mussarists left post-WWII. It was an Orthodox movement based on personality improvement and stressed the inter-personal commandments.]

As for the question of Purgatory. Again, there is no one Jewish position on the subject, even if we limit ourselves to the traditional Orthodox position. The Talmud refers to the deceased going to a Word of Truth or going to the heavens—without distinction. It is generally assumed these are homonyms, but these quotes still speak of a single afterlife. Others speak of the Garden of Eden and Gehenna. Neither could be meant literally, as Adam was in the literal Garden before death, and the valley of Hinnom (Gei Hinnom, in Hebrew) is a valley in current Jerusalem (where the Canaanite locals practiced human sacrifice by passing their children through the fires for Molech). Some therefore understand this to mean that Eden vs Gehenna is not a difference in "location" but rather in how one experiences the afterlife. Someone who spent life developing an appreciation for G-d and Truth will find it as pleasant (Heb: eden) as the garden, those who developed interest in other pursuits will find the experience hellish. A number of sources, such as R' Chaim of Vilozhin (founder of the current Yeshiva movement, late 18th early 19th cent) and R' Israel of Salant (founder of the Mussar movement, late 18th cent), describe the fires of gehenna as those of shame. Facing the truth of what one could have been and seeing what one was. The number of people subject to a permanent "stay" in gehenna is very small. The Talmud (Tr Sanhedrin, 11th ch) names 4 people up to their day who qualified. Otherwise, the experience itself is atoning, creating a person who is capable of enjoying the presence of G-d. For these few people, they so identified themselves with sin that to abandon sin would be to lose their essence.
shamash.org...

Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

Apology accepted.

I wonder though,did you actually read all that you quoted?

I am familiar with the site you used and have read the stuff you pasted several times.Two statements from your source are worth a 2nd look.

The word "moshiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "moshiach" will be used throughout this page.

It has been said that in every generation,a person is born with the potential to be the moshiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the moshiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the moshiach, then that person is not the moshiach.

I would say that this site backs up my argument up,not yours.

Less haste,More speed.


[edit on 2-12-2008 by jakyll]

As I said they GOT IT ALL WRONG and MISSED THEIR MESSIAH at his FIRST COMING ....Just like many today pick and choose which scriptures they want to believe and which ones they dont ...missing many scriptures that tell alot about where we are today in Prophecy (Alot of people think all of Daniel and the seventy weeks have been completely fulfilled and we are about to enter the thousand year reign ) WHICH IS IN ERROR >.....


Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
(Jesus came to his own and they did not receive him ) ...
Jhn 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
(Notice they will recieve one who comes in his own name (The Jews are expected just a mere man for their Moshiach as you saw in that link) ..
They will recieve the AC ...as their Moschiach ...
Only temporary though...

reply to post by Simplynoone



I am unclear as to whether you subscribe to the teachings of the Zohar. If so, then it would be clear that you are not subscribing to the teachings of the one true G-d of Israel, but rather to mysticism aka paganism aka occultism.

Yes, the Zohar has widely corrupted much of judaism and christianity without a doubt and without most even having taken the time to notice. May G-d have mercy on the poor souls who have unknowingly taken part in such practices.. that would include mine as well as it has not been until recently that I have taken the journey to find out where the beliefs I once held to came from.

I refer you to the last verse in my last post. The truth... whether you want to believe it or not. I wish you the best

reply to post by Simplynoone


Two things you need to do.
1)Read before you paste.
2)Read before you paste.

Do you even know what the Zohar is and when it was written?

As justamomma has said,it is a form of Jewish mysticism,not Jewish religion.

Mysticism is a doctrine of an immediate spiritual intuition of truths believed to transcend ordinary understanding,or of a direct,intimate union of the soul with God through contemplation or ecstasy.

Religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause,nature,and purpose of the universe,esp.when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies,usually involving devotional and ritual observances,and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.


You are obviously skimming for information to back your argument up,this is not the best tactic to use in a debate.Learn something about the subject first,it helps,a lot.If you don't,then you're guilty of this too....

As I said they GOT IT ALL WRONG and MISSED THEIR MESSIAH at his FIRST COMING ....Just like many today pick and choose which scriptures they want to believe and which ones they dont ...

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

I am unclear as to whether you subscribe to the teachings of the Zohar. If so, then it would be clear that you are not subscribing to the teachings of the one true G-d of Israel, but rather to mysticism aka paganism aka occultism.

Yes, the Zohar has widely corrupted much of judaism and christianity without a doubt and without most even having taken the time to notice. May G-d have mercy on the poor souls who have unknowingly taken part in such practices.. that would include mine as well as it has not been until recently that I have taken the journey to find out where the beliefs I once held to came from.

I refer you to the last verse in my last post. The truth... whether you want to believe it or not. I wish you the best

NO Jakyll was caught up in what the Jews believed about hell (Actually you brought it up ) so I just shared what they believe ...That link covered different beliefs of the different sects of Judaism ...
I do not believe as they do ...
Surely you have read my posts enough to be familar with what I believe havent you ?


I consider Hell to be a real place deep within the Earth (Yes a literal one possibly)(Check Isaiah 14 below) ...where it is spiritual darkness with an unquenching fire of torment of soul and possibly even body ....

Pro 15:24 The way of life [is] above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
((((If the smoke is so bad that it will block the sun and the air then this sounds pretty literal to me))))))))))))))

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.

Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
((((((THese are those who take the mark ..they will be suffering badly in BODY and SOUL during the plaques and will not even die ...which does not sound good does it ...it is certainly like hell only this one is a literal burning of the flesh at these in these passages (Which is before they are cast into hell ) ........



[edit on 2-12-2008 by Simplynoone]

Guess you did not read it either did you ?

[That link covered different beliefs of the different sects of Judaism]

NOT JUST THE ZOHAR beliefs ..

Ok thats enough ..I am not gonna be your mouse that your going to toy with .

So could someone explain the reason why God is suddenly starting to be spelled G-d ?

god go-d god g-d god g-d

Nope it's not quicker to type, is it somekind of secret code so that god won't know your talking about him/her/it ?

My speeling is apoling most of the tyme but the mispelin of Gad seems to b viral.

Is dyslexia equally as contagious as delusion or should ATS provide a spell checker ?

Originally posted by moocowman
So could someone explain the reason why God is suddenly starting to be spelled G-d?

It is supposed to be an act of respect. As in, God is so Holy, the word is not even to be fully typed or written.

Here is some info on it ...

Writing the Name of God

Jews do not casually write any Name of God. This practice does not come from the commandment not to take the Lord's Name in vain, as many suppose. In Jewish thought, that commandment refers solely to oath-taking, and is a prohibition against swearing by God's Name falsely or frivolously (the word normally translated as "in vain" literally means "for falsehood").

Judaism does not prohibit writing the Name of God per se; it prohibits only erasing or defacing a Name of God. However, observant Jews avoid writing any Name of God casually because of the risk that the written Name might later be defaced, obliterated or destroyed accidentally or by one who does not know better.

The commandment not to erase or deface the name of God comes from Deut. 12:3. In that passage, the people are commanded that when they take over the promised land, they should destroy all things related to the idolatrous religions of that region, and should utterly destroy the names of the local deities. Immediately afterwards, we are commanded not to do the same to our God. From this, the rabbis inferred that we are commanded not to destroy any holy thing, and not to erase or deface a Name of God.

It is worth noting that this prohibition against erasing or defacing Names of God applies only to Names that are written in some kind of permanent form, and recent rabbinical decisions have held that writing on a computer is not a permanent form, thus it is not a violation to type God's Name into a computer and then backspace over it or cut and paste it, or copy and delete files with God's Name in them. However, once you print the document out, it becomes a permanent form. That is why observant Jews avoid writing a Name of God on web sites like this one or in newsgroup messages: because there is a risk that someone else will print it out and deface it.

Normally, we avoid writing the Name by substituting letters or syllables, for example, writing "G-d" instead of "God." In addition, the number 15, which would ordinarily be written in Hebrew as Yod-Hei (10-5), is normally written as Teit-Vav (9-6), because Yod-Hei is a Name. See Hebrew Alphabet for more information about using letters as numerals.
www.jewfaq.org...

He did, but it is spiritual. The temple of God is the dwelling place of God. Jesus sacrifice cleansed sin, allowing God to dwell in us.

The prophecy is for a physical building.Floor plans for it exist in the OT.A spiritual temple would need no such thing.

Where would that be?

This prophecy concerns all of Israel, not just the tribe of Judah (jews). You will be surprised to know that the name of Israel was transfered to the northern 10 tribes, not Judah (Genesis 48, Ezekiel 37) . If you want to know who Israel is,read this free book...

I am aware of that.Its stated by the use of the word,'all.'

Then why did you mention the jews only?

This takes place later, the first time he came as a lamb, the passover, the sacrifice for sin.

Later when? The concept of the 2nd Coming does not exist in Judaism.

It is if you understand the symbolism. Note the passover lamb, to killed and the blood shed for the passing over of the judgement for sin. Notice also the two goats in Leviticus 16, one to be killed for atonement, one sent free (notice the parallel between Jesus and Barabbas). The messiah was to die as a lamb, yet also be a ruling king. IF you understand it, this has to be accomplished with two comings, doesn't it.

Yes, he was.

(concerning my quotes on the tribe of Judah and relations to david and solomon)

The geneaologies given in Matthew and Luke agree from Abraham to David.After that they differ not only from each other but also from the geneaology found in 1 Chronicles 3:4-24.It was only from the 15th century onwards that the geneaology in Luke was identified as Mary's by some.Before then it was an accepted and established fact that both Matthew and Luke concern Joseph.Which makes sense when you know that tribal status is passed through the male line,not female.

If the line can only be passed by the males, then why did Jeremiah take the kings daughters at the fall of Jerusalem, and his commission was to....

Jeremiah 1:10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

Jeremiah took the kings Daughters to establish the throne elsewhere (where the northern tribes had scattered), to keep the promise that God made to David, that he would always have a child ruling over Israelites.

JEREMIAH 43:6 Even men, and women, and children, and the king's daughters, and every person that Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard had left with Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Jeremiah the prophet, and Baruch the son of Neriah.

If you are truly looking for answers, please read the book at the link I posted.

Yes, ruling any more in Judah! There's the hint that you are missing. Jesus will rule all of Israel, and all the world. The book link I gave you above explains this.

Taking a cue from what you said,this prophecy concerns all of Israel,not just Judah.

You are forgetting that Judah was also a place.

Tis also comes later, during his kingdom, and the religion isn't Jewish, the Jews were only one tribe of Israel.

The Jews are not one of the 12 tribes.

The Jews are those of the southern kingdom of Judah, which contained the tribe of Judah, hence the name, though I guess it did also have the smalled tribe of Benjamin there also, with some of the Levite priests, but the vast majority are the tribe of Judah.

Again, yet future during his coming Kingdom.

And again,the 2nd Coming does not exist in Judaism.

Again, yes it does, but you have to understand what Judaism is. The faith followed by Jesus is not the same as what Judaism is today, actually not even when he was around. He rebuked it even then as as having veered away from the teachings of the Law and the prophets. Jesus followed the law of the Israelites. What we today call Judaism has veered off that track even further still, even though they still hold onto some of the truths that that mainstream Christianity has lost, such as the seventh day Sabbath from even to even, and the Holy Days. What Christ taught is simply an extension of the Law delivered to Israel, with a more spiritual intent, such as adultery still being a sin, but even committing adultery in the mind now also being a sin, because that is where sin starts. The Talmud is not part of the true Israelite faith, and was compiled after the death of Jesus.



[edit on 3/12/08 by doctorex]

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by moocowman
So could someone explain the reason why God is suddenly starting to be spelled G-d?

It is supposed to be an act of respect. As in, God is so Holy, the word is not even to be fully typed or written.

Are you serious ?

I thought the name of god was something like YHVH or Elohim or el shaddai.

So do I take it that everyone who can think the word god but out of some sort of respect cannot type it is Jewish ?

So Jesus is not god then and doesn't deserve the same weird respect ?
J_S-S.


Who the hell tells these people to act in such a bizarre manner ?

G-D G_D G-D Why not change it to GD, whats's the difference ?

COLOR (USA) COLOUR (UK) See even without the U I still know the U is there, because it's the way it's spelled in my neck of the w--ds.

This has got to be dumber than "The Artist Formerly Known As prince"

So when you write about god do you in your mind say GD ?

Perhaps there's some truth in the myth that the word God derived from the word GOLD and the L was dropped.


1MINUTE LATER -
I've tried really hard to think and type and say the word god without an O and the best I can come up with is GD otherwise I delude myself .

This is the F----ng height of stupidity, no wonder the pews are emptying.

reply to post by moocowman


I personally don't do it but was answering your question why some do. They feel it is a matter of respect. And 'God' isn't literally His name but since it is His English title, they carry it over to space out the 'O' out of respect.

Oh and P.S. More often than not, it is done mostly by those of the Jewish faith. Christians aren't known to do it very often. At least not in modern times. I've seen some books from prior centuries where the word was typed as 'G-d.' It stems from devout reverence.

Justamomma is the one who did it in her post Moo ..why dont you ask her ..
I did post a link above though explaining it if your interested ..

I have never known any Christian who does that ... ...me personally I have no problem with saying GOD or typing it because thats just a title anyway ....like SIR ...or something to that effect.
(at least in my opinion) .

reply to post by justamomma

In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus says:

"For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom."

See also Mark 9:1

This clearly did not happen, unless you are trying to tell me that some of those sitting before Jesus that day are still alive.

What does G-d say to the Jewish people say about those prophecy falsely?

This thread is so full of basic misconceptions and false accusations against Christian teachings that it is remarkable anyone even began to address the issues raised - the task is so monumental. Others have ploughed in most valiantly. I wish to address just one of the most outstanding lies.

The first sentence begins "For...", meaning it is a continuation - and in fact the conclusion - of the preceding verses, beginning at verse 24, which were omitted in the original post.

What Jesus said in the second sentence above was fulfilled in the verses that follow immediately after!

After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and his brother John, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. He was transformed in front of them, and His face shone like the sun. Even His clothes became as white as the light...

...suddenly a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said:

This is My beloved Son.

I take delight in him.

Listen to Him!

...when they looked up they saw no one except Him - Jesus alone.

Matthew 17:1,2,5b&8

jm, your accusation that Jesus did not fulfil what He said is therefore based entirely on a falsehood, nothing more, nothing less. The deception you have put forward may seem to hold water to those who are not aware that the original text did not have chapter breaks. In reality they were only added 1,200 years later (source: en.wikipedia.org...)

Anyone with a truly open mind is encouraged to look at the Gospels and the other OT & NT Scriptures for themselves. I am convinced the vast majority who refer to the Scriptures rather than listen to the ignorant hearsay being promoted here will see that the accusations being made are groundless, and self-evidently based on an anti-Christian agenda.



[edit to fix code]


[edit on 3/12/08 by pause4thought]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Justamomma is the one who did it in her post Moo ..why dont you ask her ..
I did post a link above though explaining it if your interested ..

I have never known any Christian who does that ... ...me personally I have no problem with saying GOD or typing it because thats just a title anyway ....like SIR ...or something to that effect.
(at least in my opinion) .

Ahum ?
Don't want to argue but you did this several times G-d in your posts (that's what drew my attention to it) I may have replied to AshD (I'm honouring her by removing some letters lol) but it was your posts that drew my attention, so am I to assume your a jew ?

Simplynoone

NO Jakyll was caught up in what the Jews believed about hell (Actually you brought it up ) so I just shared what they believe ...That link covered different beliefs of the different sects of Judaism ...

As i have already said,you have not read what you have quoted.
It talks only of 2 beliefs.

The quotes on hell from your shamash.org link start with a look at traditional Judaism. (that which is practiced by most Jewish people) It then looks at mystical explanation. (that which is practiced by a small sect) it then goes on to state clearly;

However, for Jews, gehenna—while certainly a terribly unpleasant place—is not hell.

What the Jews believe about this is totally different to that of Christians.Its so different in fact that in Judaism they believe all that Satan does,he does for the sake of heaven.

According to Torah, no spiritual force opposes G‑d. This includes Satan, who is a spiritual entity that faithfully carries out its divinely assigned task of trying to seduce people to stumble. Satan is also identified with the Prosecutor above -- that's what the word Satan itself means: it's just Hebrew for prosecutor -- who levels charges against the guilty party who succumbs to its wily arguments. Look in the beginning chapter of the Book of Job and you'll see that clearly.

www.chabad.org...






doctorex

The plans for the temple can be found in Ezekiel chapters 40-47.

Then why did you mention the jews only?

Because its in the prophecy.And the Jews are not a tribe.

It is if you understand the symbolism.

you can talk about symbolism all you want,it won't change the fact that the concept of the 2nd Coming does not exist in Judaism.As i said on the previous page,what Christians expect Jesus to do on his return is what Jews expect the Messiah to do on his first visit.This stated clearly in the Talmud.

Jeremiah took the kings Daughters to establish the throne elsewhere (where the northern tribes had scattered), to keep the promise that God made to David, that he would always have a child ruling over Israelites.

Where in your quotes does it say this?
And bear in mind that David's son Solomon succeeded him to the throne.Solomon had over 700 wives,none of them were his sisters.If the line was to continue you would expect Solomon to do as the Egyptians did.

You are forgetting that Judah was also a place.

So is Israel.

The Jews are those of the southern kingdom of Judah, which contained the tribe of Judah, hence the name, though I guess it did also have the smalled tribe of Benjamin there also, with some of the Levite priests, but the vast majority are the tribe of Judah.

The tribe of Judah was joined not only by Benjamin,but also by many members of Ephraim,Manasseh and Simeon.

The Talmud is not part of the true Israelite faith, and was compiled after the death of Jesus.

Funny statement to make,for someone who understands Judaism that is.
The Talmud was written in 2 parts;Gemara c 500 BC and Mishnah c 200 BC.Waaaaay before Jesus was around.