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"We have found the Messiah." John 1:41
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Who is Jesus Christ?
A simple question with a complicated answer.
We have all heard of the argument;Jesus:Lord,Liar or Lunatic?
But there is one area that gets missed out in this on going debate.
Liar or lunatic,these ideas have little discussion value,as does Lord.
What if though,he was the Lord,but not the Lord as we know him today.
His Lordship rests on the belief that he is the Messiah.Yet it is clear that this is not true.He did not fulfill even half of the prophecies he needed to,to be the Messiah talked of for so many centuries.
For those who don't know what these are,i will list some below.
1)JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES.
A. Build the Third Temple.(Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel.(Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace,and end all hatred,oppression,suffering and disease.As it says:"Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. He wasn't a member of the tribe of Judah.(Genesis 49:10)
E. He wasn't a descendent of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11,Psalm 89:29-38,Jeremiah 33:17,II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)
The genealogies of Mary given in the NT have no bearing whatsoever on Jesus' bloodline as the Jewish Scriptures clearly state that a person's genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one's physical father.(Numbers 1:18, Jeremiah 33:17)
A further problem is that Joseph was a descendent of King Jeconiah,who in the Hebrew Bible was cursed to never have a descendent "sitting on the throne of David and ruling any more in Judah" (Jeremiah 22:30).Joseph's genealogy,even if it were transmittable to Jesus,would only serve to further disqualify Jesus as the Messiah.
F. His ministry hasn't brought universal acceptance of the Jewish God and Jewish religion.(Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; 66:23; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9)
G. All of Israel has yet to obey the commandments.(Zephaniah 3:13; Ezekiel 37:24)
SOME PROPHESIES CHRISTIANS USE TO TRY & VERIFY JESUS AS THE MESSIAH.
A. Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15 claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9.But the next 4 verses show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea".Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom and came in peace,he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.
B. John 19:33 says that during Jesus’ crucifixion the soldiers didn’t break his legs because he was already dead.Verse John 19:36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: "Not a bone of him shall be broken." But there is no such prophecy.It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Exodus 12:46 and Numbers 9:12.This is not correct.These verses are not prophecies they are commandments.The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb,and this is all it is about.
C. Matthew 2:15 claims that the flight of Jesus’ family to Egypt is a fulfillment of Hosea 11:1.But this too isn't a prophecy.It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus.Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse."Out of Egypt I have called my son".
So,if he is not the Messiah talked of,and he isn't a liar or a lunatic;who is he? Which faith/god is he representing? Who gave him the power to perform miracles? Is he the Messiah from some unknown faith or legend?
I would appreciate serious answers,not ones that want to bash Christianity.
A simple question with a complicated answer.
We have all heard of the argument;Jesus:Lord,Liar or Lunatic?
But there is one area that gets missed out in this on going debate.
Liar or lunatic,these ideas have little discussion value,as does Lord.
What if though,he was the Lord,but not the Lord as we know him today.
His Lordship rests on the belief that he is the Messiah.Yet it is clear that this is not true.He did not fulfill even half of the prophecies he needed to,to be the Messiah talked of for so many centuries.
For those who don't know what these are,i will list some below.
1)JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES.
A. Build the Third Temple.(Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel.(Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace,and end all hatred,oppression,suffering and disease.As it says:"Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. He wasn't a member of the tribe of Judah.(Genesis 49:10)
E. He wasn't a descendent of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11,Psalm 89:29-38,Jeremiah 33:17,II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)
The genealogies of Mary given in the NT have no bearing whatsoever on Jesus' bloodline as the Jewish Scriptures clearly state that a person's genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one's physical father.(Numbers 1:18, Jeremiah 33:17)
A further problem is that Joseph was a descendent of King Jeconiah,who in the Hebrew Bible was cursed to never have a descendent "sitting on the throne of David and ruling any more in Judah" (Jeremiah 22:30).Joseph's genealogy,even if it were transmittable to Jesus,would only serve to further disqualify Jesus as the Messiah.
F. His ministry hasn't brought universal acceptance of the Jewish God and Jewish religion.(Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; 66:23; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9)
G. All of Israel has yet to obey the commandments.(Zephaniah 3:13; Ezekiel 37:24)
SOME PROPHESIES CHRISTIANS USE TO TRY & VERIFY JESUS AS THE MESSIAH.
A. Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15 claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9.But the next 4 verses show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea".Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom and came in peace,he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.
B. John 19:33 says that during Jesus’ crucifixion the soldiers didn’t break his legs because he was already dead.Verse John 19:36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: "Not a bone of him shall be broken." But there is no such prophecy.It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Exodus 12:46 and Numbers 9:12.This is not correct.These verses are not prophecies they are commandments.The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb,and this is all it is about.
C. Matthew 2:15 claims that the flight of Jesus’ family to Egypt is a fulfillment of Hosea 11:1.But this too isn't a prophecy.It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus.Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse."Out of Egypt I have called my son".
So,if he is not the Messiah talked of,and he isn't a liar or a lunatic;who is he? Which faith/god is he representing? Who gave him the power to perform miracles? Is he the Messiah from some unknown faith or legend?
I would appreciate serious answers,not ones that want to bash Christianity.
I don't actually follow this history and argument so much, but it is interesting, mostly; that many of the Jews allegedly did not accept him
either.
I'm assuming it has to do with many of your statements here also? Or was it that they believed he would by some godly miracle; kill and subdue their enemies like Judas or whomever had expected? Perhaps their real demands as rebels were not met?
Jesus, as if, was way too passive compared to the old testament "lord."
I'm assuming it has to do with many of your statements here also? Or was it that they believed he would by some godly miracle; kill and subdue their enemies like Judas or whomever had expected? Perhaps their real demands as rebels were not met?
Jesus, as if, was way too passive compared to the old testament "lord."
This is actually very central to the reason why so many Jews did not accept him as the Messiah.
They wanted (or were expecting) someone who would be a King in the Political spectrum of the world.
Jesus, on the other hand makes great pains to distinguish between this world (merely a footstool kingdom) and the world of his father (The Kingdom of God). Although he too was tempted by this (See the temptations of Christ)
Where most of Judaism was focused on the objective world at the time, he came around and said basically that the objective world is temporary and doesn't matter much. What matters is our subjective worlds (our souls). Much like when he said "If a man commits adultery in his mind, he has truly comitted it".
Personally I think he is Messianic because he brought forth truths of the subjective sphere that most existentialists usually gloss over or miss altogether.
I'm not your typical Christian. I see the teachings of Christ as something which pulls you out of the thinking of this world. You lose sight of the priorities that man places on things and replace them with the priorities of peace and subjective contentment and love for your fellow man, which you eventually find out is really yourself anyway.
The thing about Jesus though, is that his teachings can be seen from soooo many different angles, that it's really difficult to sum it up. You really have to pick an approach and take it from there.
For example, in a much more socially philosophical context, his teachings were about how to live in a world filled with diversity. His response? Love your nieghbor. It doesn't take much character to love someone who you agree with, but it does require great character to love someone who you naturally despise. If his teachings are followed in that vein, you end up with a community which can acquire a collective identity.
As I said... You can take it in many different directions.
Ultimately, I agree that Jesus was not who the Jews were expecting. Yet he challenged their ways of thinking because he worked within the law, even while breaking it some times.
[edit on 2-12-2008 by HunkaHunka]
They wanted (or were expecting) someone who would be a King in the Political spectrum of the world.
Jesus, on the other hand makes great pains to distinguish between this world (merely a footstool kingdom) and the world of his father (The Kingdom of God). Although he too was tempted by this (See the temptations of Christ)
Where most of Judaism was focused on the objective world at the time, he came around and said basically that the objective world is temporary and doesn't matter much. What matters is our subjective worlds (our souls). Much like when he said "If a man commits adultery in his mind, he has truly comitted it".
Personally I think he is Messianic because he brought forth truths of the subjective sphere that most existentialists usually gloss over or miss altogether.
I'm not your typical Christian. I see the teachings of Christ as something which pulls you out of the thinking of this world. You lose sight of the priorities that man places on things and replace them with the priorities of peace and subjective contentment and love for your fellow man, which you eventually find out is really yourself anyway.
The thing about Jesus though, is that his teachings can be seen from soooo many different angles, that it's really difficult to sum it up. You really have to pick an approach and take it from there.
For example, in a much more socially philosophical context, his teachings were about how to live in a world filled with diversity. His response? Love your nieghbor. It doesn't take much character to love someone who you agree with, but it does require great character to love someone who you naturally despise. If his teachings are followed in that vein, you end up with a community which can acquire a collective identity.
As I said... You can take it in many different directions.
Ultimately, I agree that Jesus was not who the Jews were expecting. Yet he challenged their ways of thinking because he worked within the law, even while breaking it some times.
[edit on 2-12-2008 by HunkaHunka]
Originally posted by jakyll
Who is Jesus Christ?
A. Build the Third Temple.(Ezekiel 37:26-28).
He did, but it is spiritual. The temple of God is the dwelling place of God. Jesus sacrifice cleansed sin, allowing God to dwell in us.
JOHN 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
1Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel.(Isaiah 43:5-6).
This prophecy concerns all of Israel, not just the tribe of Judah (jews). You will be surprised to know that the name of Israel was transfered to the northern 10 tribes, not Judah (Genesis 48, Ezekiel 37) . If you want to know who Israel is,read this free book...
www.biblical-truth.com...
C. Usher in an era of world peace,and end all hatred,oppression,suffering and disease.As it says:"Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
This takes place later, the first time he came as a lamb, the passover, the sacrifice for sin.
D. He wasn't a member of the tribe of Judah.(Genesis 49:10)
Yes, he was.
E. He wasn't a descendent of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11,Psalm 89:29-38,Jeremiah 33:17,II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)
Yes, he was.
The genealogies of Mary given in the NT have no bearing whatsoever on Jesus' bloodline as the Jewish Scriptures clearly state that a person's genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one's physical father.(Numbers 1:18, Jeremiah 33:17)
When Jesus's only flesh relative on Earth was a woman, who do you the the line comes through?
A further problem is that Joseph was a descendent of King Jeconiah,who in the Hebrew Bible was cursed to never have a descendent "sitting on the throne of David and ruling any more in Judah" (Jeremiah 22:30).
Yes, ruling any more in Judah! There's the hint that you are missing. Jesus will rule all of Israel, and all the world. The book link I gave you above explains this.
Joseph's genealogy,even if it were transmittable to Jesus,would only serve to further disqualify Jesus as the Messiah.
But it's not.
F. His ministry hasn't brought universal acceptance of the Jewish God and Jewish religion.(Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; 66:23; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9)
Tis also comes later, during his kingdom, and the religion isn't Jewish, the Jews were only one tribe of Israel.
G. All of Israel has yet to obey the commandments.(Zephaniah 3:13; Ezekiel 37:24)
Again, yet future during his coming Kingdom.
Ok first lets deal with the line of Christ
Jesus would be the "seed of Abraham"
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Jesus would be the "seed of Isaac"
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Luk 3:34 Which was [the son] of Jacob, which was [the son] of Isaac, which was [the son] of Abraham, which was [the son] of Thara, which was [the son] of Nachor,
Hbr 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],
Hbr 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Hbr 11:19 Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Jesus would be the "seed of Jacob"
Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Num 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
Num 24:18 And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall be a possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly.
Num 24:19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Luk 3:34 Which was [the son] of Jacob, which was [the son] of Isaac, which was [the son] of Abraham, which was [the son] of Thara, which was [the son] of Nachor,
Jesus would be of the tribe of Judah
Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [shall] the gathering of the people [be].
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
Luk 3:33 Which was [the son] of Aminadab, which was [the son] of Aram, which was [the son] of Esrom, which was [the son] of Phares, which was [the son] of Juda,
Luk 3:34 Which was [the son] of Jacob, which was [the son] of Isaac, which was [the son] of Abraham, which was [the son] of Thara, which was [the son] of Nachor
Hbr 7:14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Jesus would be come from David's family and be heir to his throne
2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
2Sa 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
Psa 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
Psa 89:4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
Psa 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psa 132:11 The LORD hath sworn [in] truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
Psa 132:12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias;
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luk 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
Luk 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
Luk 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David
Luk 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Jhn 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
Jesus would be the "seed of Abraham"
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Jesus would be the "seed of Isaac"
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Luk 3:34 Which was [the son] of Jacob, which was [the son] of Isaac, which was [the son] of Abraham, which was [the son] of Thara, which was [the son] of Nachor,
Hbr 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],
Hbr 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Hbr 11:19 Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Jesus would be the "seed of Jacob"
Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Num 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
Num 24:18 And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall be a possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly.
Num 24:19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Luk 3:34 Which was [the son] of Jacob, which was [the son] of Isaac, which was [the son] of Abraham, which was [the son] of Thara, which was [the son] of Nachor,
Jesus would be of the tribe of Judah
Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [shall] the gathering of the people [be].
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
Luk 3:33 Which was [the son] of Aminadab, which was [the son] of Aram, which was [the son] of Esrom, which was [the son] of Phares, which was [the son] of Juda,
Luk 3:34 Which was [the son] of Jacob, which was [the son] of Isaac, which was [the son] of Abraham, which was [the son] of Thara, which was [the son] of Nachor
Hbr 7:14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Jesus would be come from David's family and be heir to his throne
2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
2Sa 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
Psa 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
Psa 89:4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
Psa 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psa 132:11 The LORD hath sworn [in] truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
Psa 132:12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias;
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luk 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
Luk 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
Luk 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David
Luk 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Jhn 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
Originally posted by aleon1018
I don't actually follow this history and argument so much, but it is interesting, mostly; that many of the Jews allegedly did not accept him either.
I'm assuming it has to do with many of your statements here also? Or was it that they believed he would by some godly miracle; kill and subdue their enemies like Judas or whomever had expected? Perhaps their real demands as rebels were not met?
Jesus, as if, was way too passive compared to the old testament "lord."
They did not accept him because even they thought he did not fulfill the prophecies ...(They were expecting a Conquering King etc ) which will happen at his SECOND COMING ...not his first ...they completely missed the prophecies of his FIRST COMING ....which was a lamb without spot or blemish who would be slain ....etc ..(They did not get it just like Jaykll does not get it ) .....
Also if the Jews would have accepted him he would not have died (They would not have killed him ) And his first coming scriptures would not have been fulfilled and we *Gentiles would not have been included in salvation .
It was beneficial for Christ to have died so that WE COULD ALL BE SAVED .(Not just the Jews)
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, [saying], I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Act 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
[edit on 2-12-2008 by Simplynoone]
Nice defending Simplynoone. You just proved my point to prototism who bashed you badly in the How can Someone not Be Christian? thread
Right after his post that was removed I quoted him on his saying. I also quoted you. Right after quoting you his quote where meant for you. Just thought you should know. God bless Simplynoone
[edit on 2-12-2008 by slymattb]
Right after his post that was removed I quoted him on his saying. I also quoted you. Right after quoting you his quote where meant for you. Just thought you should know. God bless Simplynoone
[edit on 2-12-2008 by slymattb]
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Two advents. Messianic prophecy speaks of two separate advents. One is the 'suffering servant' of Isaiah 53 (among dozens of others, mostly in the Psalms) and the conquering king mentions in other OT and NT passages. He was not supposed to fill both rolls the first time. There is so much prophecy that makes it abundantly clear it was peak-to-peak prophecy. It is so clear the Messiah would be 'the good shepherd' rejected and scorned the first time THEN he would come back a second time in glory. I'm not going to get into it because there are HUNDREDS of messianic prophecies and dozens of servant vs. king prophecies specifically that show beyond doubt two separate advents are mentioned.
That's not what this is talking about:
www.thedevineevidence.com...
It is believed by the majority that the genealogies in Matthew and Luke refer to Mary as well as Joseph. Matthew = Joseph. Luke = Mary. They were both descendants of King David according to both Gospels. Also, as Jesus' legal stepfather, his ancestry would have been sufficient. You would have to understand the social context of the time. Jesus fulfilled this prophecy. Also, neither of those verses make any claim that it would be a male ancestor that would hold sway as Jesus' position.
These are generally related to end times prophecies that will take place towards the end of the tribulation as well as during the millineum age.
This was a dual fulfillment. Jesus, as a spiritual king, literally rode into town on the donkey. When He returns, He will be a literal king as well that rules the nations (see Revelation specifically).
*Underline emphasis mine.
1). Yes there is and it is found in Psalms: "He guards all His bones. Not one of them is broken." Psalm 34:20
2). Due to the fact the Jews did not have the power to carry out the crucifixion, their laws or customs about not breaking bones have no bearing. The Romans carried out the crucifixion and it was most definitely standard for them to break the legs. Also, the passover lamb is a massive foreshadowing of Jesus. it is highly prophetic and explained thoroughly in the NT as well as early Christian writings.
[edit on 12/2/2008 by AshleyD]
Originally posted by jakyll
His Lordship rests on the belief that he is the Messiah.Yet it is clear that this is not true.He did not fulfill even half of the prophecies he needed to,to be the Messiah talked of for so many centuries.
For those who don't know what these are,i will list some below.
1)JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES.
A. Build the Third Temple.(Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel.(Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace,and end all hatred,oppression,suffering and disease.As it says:"Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
Two advents. Messianic prophecy speaks of two separate advents. One is the 'suffering servant' of Isaiah 53 (among dozens of others, mostly in the Psalms) and the conquering king mentions in other OT and NT passages. He was not supposed to fill both rolls the first time. There is so much prophecy that makes it abundantly clear it was peak-to-peak prophecy. It is so clear the Messiah would be 'the good shepherd' rejected and scorned the first time THEN he would come back a second time in glory. I'm not going to get into it because there are HUNDREDS of messianic prophecies and dozens of servant vs. king prophecies specifically that show beyond doubt two separate advents are mentioned.
D. He wasn't a member of the tribe of Judah.(Genesis 49:10)
That's not what this is talking about:
HE WOULD APPEAR BEFORE "THE SCEPTER DEPARTS FROM JUDAH”
PROPHECY: “The scepter shall not depart from Judah nor a lawgiver from between his feet until Shiloh comes...”
Genesis 49:10
FULFILLMENT: According to this passage, two signs would take place shortly after the Messiah appeared. Judah would lose its scepter/tribal identity and Jewish judicial power would be eradicated. In this verse, the word scepter is best translated into tribal staff. For centuries, each of the twelve tribes of Israel possessed their own tribal staff. This prophecy states the tribal staff, or tribal identity, of Judah would not be lost until the Messiah came. Even when Judah was deprived of its sovereignty during the Babylonian captivity, it never lost its national identity or tribal staff. The people still possessed their own laws, lawgivers, and judges.
Judah began to lose its power when Herod the Great (a Gentile) succeeded the Maccabean dynasty, the last Jewish family to reign in Jerusalem. Furthermore, the legal power of the Sanhedrin was now being limited under Roman domination. This loss of power included the ability to execute capital punishment sometime between 7 and 11 A.D. The Jews believed the Messiah would appear before Judah lost its identity but with the legal restrictions imposed on them by Rome, their power was rapidly diminishing. The question remained: where was the Messiah?
The Jews were well aware of the loss of power. The Jewish Talmud even documents the lamentations of their people with the words Woe unto us, for the scepter has been taken from Judah and the Messiah has not appeared! But the Messiah had appeared. He was Jesus, a humble Galilean teacher, traveling about the countryside.
www.thedevineevidence.com...
E. He wasn't a descendent of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11,Psalm 89:29-38,Jeremiah 33:17,II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)
The genealogies of Mary given in the NT have no bearing whatsoever on Jesus' bloodline as the Jewish Scriptures clearly state that a person's genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one's physical father.(Numbers 1:18, Jeremiah 33:17)
It is believed by the majority that the genealogies in Matthew and Luke refer to Mary as well as Joseph. Matthew = Joseph. Luke = Mary. They were both descendants of King David according to both Gospels. Also, as Jesus' legal stepfather, his ancestry would have been sufficient. You would have to understand the social context of the time. Jesus fulfilled this prophecy. Also, neither of those verses make any claim that it would be a male ancestor that would hold sway as Jesus' position.
F. His ministry hasn't brought universal acceptance of the Jewish God and Jewish religion.(Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; 66:23; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9)
G. All of Israel has yet to obey the commandments.(Zephaniah 3:13; Ezekiel 37:24)
These are generally related to end times prophecies that will take place towards the end of the tribulation as well as during the millineum age.
SOME PROPHESIES CHRISTIANS USE TO TRY & VERIFY JESUS AS THE MESSIAH.
A. Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15 claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9.But the next 4 verses show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea".Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom and came in peace,he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.
This was a dual fulfillment. Jesus, as a spiritual king, literally rode into town on the donkey. When He returns, He will be a literal king as well that rules the nations (see Revelation specifically).
B. John 19:33 says that during Jesus’ crucifixion the soldiers didn’t break his legs because he was already dead.Verse John 19:36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: "Not a bone of him shall be broken." But there is no such prophecy.It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Exodus 12:46 and Numbers 9:12.This is not correct.These verses are not prophecies they are commandments.The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb,and this is all it is about.
*Underline emphasis mine.
1). Yes there is and it is found in Psalms: "He guards all His bones. Not one of them is broken." Psalm 34:20
2). Due to the fact the Jews did not have the power to carry out the crucifixion, their laws or customs about not breaking bones have no bearing. The Romans carried out the crucifixion and it was most definitely standard for them to break the legs. Also, the passover lamb is a massive foreshadowing of Jesus. it is highly prophetic and explained thoroughly in the NT as well as early Christian writings.
[edit on 12/2/2008 by AshleyD]
Originally posted by slymattb
Nice defending Simplynoone. You just proved my point to prototism who bashed you badly in the How can Someone not Be Christian? thread
Right after his post that was removed I quoted him on his saying. I also quoted you. Right after quoting you his quote where meant for you. Just thought you should know. God bless Simplynoone
[edit on 2-12-2008 by slymattb]
Hey Sly dont worry about it ..let it be upon their own heads ...
I am used to it ..believe me ..and it does not hurt me not one bit ..but I do appreciate your concern ...I could use some prayer though for sure ..
[edit on 2-12-2008 by Simplynoone]
reply to post by jakyll
Well you've gone and done it now Jakyll, youve put forward an exceptional post asking some very reasonable questions based on hearsay evidence.
Sit back and wait for -
"His ministry is in heaven"
"The tribes have yet to be braught together "
"Marys' bloodline does count totally against tradition (held by the very people who rejected his claim)
"Jesus is really a meatphor"
" He was was obviously the messiah because someone said he was"
"Yes the were loads of messiahs at the time but he was the real one because his spirit is in tupperware"
"God was his father so he was king which means he was the messiah "
" Ah, you see the bible is just a guide it is inspired by god "
Jakyll, I will now look up the number of Nurse Rachett.
I guarantee the apologist replies will stretch the imagination to the limits, great post
Well you've gone and done it now Jakyll, youve put forward an exceptional post asking some very reasonable questions based on hearsay evidence.
Sit back and wait for -
"His ministry is in heaven"
"The tribes have yet to be braught together "
"Marys' bloodline does count totally against tradition (held by the very people who rejected his claim)
"Jesus is really a meatphor"
" He was was obviously the messiah because someone said he was"
"Yes the were loads of messiahs at the time but he was the real one because his spirit is in tupperware"
"God was his father so he was king which means he was the messiah "
" Ah, you see the bible is just a guide it is inspired by god "
Jakyll, I will now look up the number of Nurse Rachett.
I guarantee the apologist replies will stretch the imagination to the limits, great post
Lineage of Joseph…. Hmmm… I thought Jesus was not related to Joseph as it was the Holy Spirit or Gabriel or whatever that “came upon thee
(Mary)” like an internet porn clip.
Strange though, if Gabriel came upon thee then she really shouldn’t have gotten preggers. He would have needed to “came into thee” and then shown it too the camera of course. Bow Chicka Bow Wow
Gabriel was a grey wasn’t he? Perhaps an Annunaki? Pleadean?
Strange though, if Gabriel came upon thee then she really shouldn’t have gotten preggers. He would have needed to “came into thee” and then shown it too the camera of course. Bow Chicka Bow Wow
Gabriel was a grey wasn’t he? Perhaps an Annunaki? Pleadean?
Fascinating posts!
I always find myself dubious however that the scriptures have not been corrupted by those who sought to use religion as a political tool.
It is virtually impossible for me to accept that the gathering of 'wise and pious' 'scholars and clergy' deciding what IS and what ISN'T "divinely inspired" can blithely be 'accepted' because the book says so.
Nevertheless your collective contributions are excellent reading.
By the way, is it not traditionally accepted that matriarchal lineage is the most important factor of heritage insofar as the tribes were concerned?
I always find myself dubious however that the scriptures have not been corrupted by those who sought to use religion as a political tool.
It is virtually impossible for me to accept that the gathering of 'wise and pious' 'scholars and clergy' deciding what IS and what ISN'T "divinely inspired" can blithely be 'accepted' because the book says so.
Nevertheless your collective contributions are excellent reading.
By the way, is it not traditionally accepted that matriarchal lineage is the most important factor of heritage insofar as the tribes were concerned?
I concur OP and as another poster rightly said, these are some of the reasons that Jesus was not accepted as their messiah. In fact, the messiah was
also not meant to be G-d in the flesh. That is ironically, a paganistic belief.
To SimplyNoone: To the notion that we all needed a saviour, it is in the misunderstanding of what we are being saved from that confuses a lot of the christians today. Hell being a physical place full of fire and torment was not and still is not a concept that the Jews had. Again, that was a paganistic concept.
The Jews being the chosen ones had nothing to do with non jews not being able to be in the fellowship of G-d and worship him. Adam, Job, Ruth, Noah, and many others who were in obvious communion with G-d were not Jewish themselves.
The Jews were those who strictly adhered to Judaism and all 613 laws and for doing so, G-d was to show himself to the nations through them. His word was to be brought forth out of that sect and nothing more... the idea of making "the word" a fleshly G-d has paganism written all over it.
To address your geneology issue, The book of Matthew and the book of Luke don't even line up, not to mention, the book of Matthew's chonological order is missing 4 names from the Hebrew text (the old testament). I will be happy to list it out for you with corresponding references if you would like. Have it on my computer and simply have to copy and paste it
The messiah that was prophesied was clearly defined in Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."
The redemption is clearly from physical enemies and not some mystical spiritual redemption. And the one coming from Bethlehem was not defined as a wondering preacher and miracle worker/healer.
The idea for the 2nd coming was simply a way for the church to get around the fact that Jesus clearly did not fulfill the prophesy to be a ruler and slay the enemies of Israel and bring about peace.
Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
..........Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."
"IN HIS DAYS" and "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME" is contrary to this whole idea of a 2nd coming.
again, because I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for christians to grasp a hold of other than the fact that they would rather hang on to a false hope than to see the truth...
"When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely." 2, 000 years later and still Jesus has not saved Judah and Jerusalem does not dwell safely. Since he did not do it IN THOSE DAYS that he walked the earth, he CANNOT be the messiah prophesied.
Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
It speaks of a physical birth that will take place and all these prophesied events will take place. It doesn't say that he will come, then die, and then come again AND THEN all these things will take place. When the messiah comes into the world, redemption and peace come as well.
As for Jesus being a saviour? hahaha See, christianity filters everything through the new testament and if they would do it the right away, it would be quite obvious why the Jews don't accept Jesus as the messiah.
G-d makes it clear there is only one Saviour and that it is Him... there is no other. Isaiah 43:10-11: "Before Me there was no G.d formed, neither shall there be after me, even I, I am the LORD, and beside Me there is no saviour."
It is painfully obvious that Jesus was not OF G-d, let alone G-d in the flesh when you take a look at his words.
In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus says: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." See also Mark 9:1
This clearly did not happen, unless you are trying to tell me that some of those sitting before Jesus that day are still alive.
What does G-d say to the Jewish people say about those prophecy falsely?
Deuteronomy 18:20-22: "But the prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart; how shall we know the word that the LORD has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, this is the thing that the LORD has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you shall not be afraid of him."
Jesus placed himself in the place of G.d (John 10:30, 14:9), and he demanded to be worshipped like Him (John 5:23), and people did worship him (Matthew 2:11, 8:2, 14:33, John 9:38*). I know, I know.. he supposedly did miracles to prove he was god in the flesh.
So if he really performed these miracles, G-d makes it clear what is to be done: "If there arise among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or wonder, and the sign or wonder comes to pass whereof he spake onto thee, saying: Let us go after other gods which thou has not known, and let us serve them; Thou shall not hearken to the words of that prophet or dreamer of dreams, for the LORD (Y-H-W-H) your G.d proveth you, whether you love the LORD thy G.d with all your heart and all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your G.d and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and cleave to Him. And that prophet or dreamer of dreams shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your G.d which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy G.d commanded thee to walk in. So shall thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." Deuteronomy 13:1-5. *basically it comes down to which god you believe. The G-d of Israel or the god of the church.
G-d never said his covenent would be with anyone but the Jews. He never speaks of giving the covenent over to the gentiles and/or church and in fact, it is prophesied that the gentiles will realize this. "The gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth and shall say: Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit." Jeremiah 16:19. No doubt Jeremiah, no doubt.
To SimplyNoone: To the notion that we all needed a saviour, it is in the misunderstanding of what we are being saved from that confuses a lot of the christians today. Hell being a physical place full of fire and torment was not and still is not a concept that the Jews had. Again, that was a paganistic concept.
The Jews being the chosen ones had nothing to do with non jews not being able to be in the fellowship of G-d and worship him. Adam, Job, Ruth, Noah, and many others who were in obvious communion with G-d were not Jewish themselves.
The Jews were those who strictly adhered to Judaism and all 613 laws and for doing so, G-d was to show himself to the nations through them. His word was to be brought forth out of that sect and nothing more... the idea of making "the word" a fleshly G-d has paganism written all over it.
To address your geneology issue, The book of Matthew and the book of Luke don't even line up, not to mention, the book of Matthew's chonological order is missing 4 names from the Hebrew text (the old testament). I will be happy to list it out for you with corresponding references if you would like. Have it on my computer and simply have to copy and paste it
The messiah that was prophesied was clearly defined in Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."
The redemption is clearly from physical enemies and not some mystical spiritual redemption. And the one coming from Bethlehem was not defined as a wondering preacher and miracle worker/healer.
The idea for the 2nd coming was simply a way for the church to get around the fact that Jesus clearly did not fulfill the prophesy to be a ruler and slay the enemies of Israel and bring about peace.
Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
..........Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."
"IN HIS DAYS" and "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME" is contrary to this whole idea of a 2nd coming.
again, because I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for christians to grasp a hold of other than the fact that they would rather hang on to a false hope than to see the truth...
"When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely." 2, 000 years later and still Jesus has not saved Judah and Jerusalem does not dwell safely. Since he did not do it IN THOSE DAYS that he walked the earth, he CANNOT be the messiah prophesied.
Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
It speaks of a physical birth that will take place and all these prophesied events will take place. It doesn't say that he will come, then die, and then come again AND THEN all these things will take place. When the messiah comes into the world, redemption and peace come as well.
As for Jesus being a saviour? hahaha See, christianity filters everything through the new testament and if they would do it the right away, it would be quite obvious why the Jews don't accept Jesus as the messiah.
G-d makes it clear there is only one Saviour and that it is Him... there is no other. Isaiah 43:10-11: "Before Me there was no G.d formed, neither shall there be after me, even I, I am the LORD, and beside Me there is no saviour."
It is painfully obvious that Jesus was not OF G-d, let alone G-d in the flesh when you take a look at his words.
In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus says: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." See also Mark 9:1
This clearly did not happen, unless you are trying to tell me that some of those sitting before Jesus that day are still alive.
What does G-d say to the Jewish people say about those prophecy falsely?
Deuteronomy 18:20-22: "But the prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart; how shall we know the word that the LORD has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, this is the thing that the LORD has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you shall not be afraid of him."
Jesus placed himself in the place of G.d (John 10:30, 14:9), and he demanded to be worshipped like Him (John 5:23), and people did worship him (Matthew 2:11, 8:2, 14:33, John 9:38*). I know, I know.. he supposedly did miracles to prove he was god in the flesh.
So if he really performed these miracles, G-d makes it clear what is to be done: "If there arise among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or wonder, and the sign or wonder comes to pass whereof he spake onto thee, saying: Let us go after other gods which thou has not known, and let us serve them; Thou shall not hearken to the words of that prophet or dreamer of dreams, for the LORD (Y-H-W-H) your G.d proveth you, whether you love the LORD thy G.d with all your heart and all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your G.d and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and cleave to Him. And that prophet or dreamer of dreams shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your G.d which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy G.d commanded thee to walk in. So shall thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." Deuteronomy 13:1-5. *basically it comes down to which god you believe. The G-d of Israel or the god of the church.
G-d never said his covenent would be with anyone but the Jews. He never speaks of giving the covenent over to the gentiles and/or church and in fact, it is prophesied that the gentiles will realize this. "The gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth and shall say: Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit." Jeremiah 16:19. No doubt Jeremiah, no doubt.
I dont have all day to go over all of this with you ...
I would like to respond to some of what you brought up though ..
This will take me a little time so bare with me ...
I would like to respond to some of what you brought up though ..
This will take me a little time so bare with me ...
Simplynoone I will defiantly pray for you tonight. I could use some prayer to. God bless.
aleon1018
And he isn't the warrior king messiah of the OT.
HunkaHunka
Of Judaism,Christianity or another?
doctorex
The prophecy is for a physical building.Floor plans for it exist in the OT.A spiritual temple would need no such thing.
I am aware of that.Its stated by the use of the word,'all.'
Later when? The concept of the 2nd Coming does not exist in Judaism.
(concerning my quotes on the tribe of Judah and relations to david and solomon)
The geneaologies given in Matthew and Luke agree from Abraham to David.After that they differ not only from each other but also from the geneaology found in 1 Chronicles 3:4-24.It was only from the 15th century onwards that the geneaology in Luke was identified as Mary's by some.Before then it was an accepted and established fact that both Matthew and Luke concern Joseph.Which makes sense when you know that tribal status is passed through the male line,not female.
And how many knew this before he started his ministry?
Joseph was accepted as being Jesus' father,therefore the line came from him by adoption.
Taking a cue from what you said,this prophecy concerns all of Israel,not just Judah.
The Jews are not one of the 12 tribes.
And again,the 2nd Coming does not exist in Judaism.
Simplynoone
Lots of quotes about seeds but no evidence to back up the geneaology.
Like doctorex you don't get that the 2nd Coming is a concept of Christianity,not Judaism.The Talmud talks of 2 periods that will take place.The 1st,will bring the world to complete perfection.Important events included among this period are the returning of Jews to Israel and the building of the Third Temple.Did Jesus achieve this? The 2nd,will include a supernatural/spiritual existence.In this period that the entirety of mankind will know God in a physical and visual sense. Clearly the events Christians expect Jesus to do on his 2nd Coming are expected to be done on the 1st coming of the 'jewish' messiah.
AshleyD
Hi there.Hope you don't mind if i reply to all you said as i have already covered many of the points you've brought up.
In Christianity maybe.In Judaism it represents Israel.
Really?
Numbers 1:18.
In Judaism the verses state that the line runs through the father.i don't personally see it in Jeremiah 33:17 but they do in Judaism.
moocowman
Cheers mate.
[edit on 2-12-2008 by jakyll]
Jesus, as if, was way too passive compared to the old testament "lord."
And he isn't the warrior king messiah of the OT.
HunkaHunka
Personally I think he is Messianic because he brought forth truths of the subjective sphere that most existentialists usually gloss over or miss altogether.
Of Judaism,Christianity or another?
doctorex
He did, but it is spiritual. The temple of God is the dwelling place of God. Jesus sacrifice cleansed sin, allowing God to dwell in us.
The prophecy is for a physical building.Floor plans for it exist in the OT.A spiritual temple would need no such thing.
This prophecy concerns all of Israel, not just the tribe of Judah (jews). You will be surprised to know that the name of Israel was transfered to the northern 10 tribes, not Judah (Genesis 48, Ezekiel 37) . If you want to know who Israel is,read this free book...
I am aware of that.Its stated by the use of the word,'all.'
This takes place later, the first time he came as a lamb, the passover, the sacrifice for sin.
Later when? The concept of the 2nd Coming does not exist in Judaism.
Yes, he was.
(concerning my quotes on the tribe of Judah and relations to david and solomon)
The geneaologies given in Matthew and Luke agree from Abraham to David.After that they differ not only from each other but also from the geneaology found in 1 Chronicles 3:4-24.It was only from the 15th century onwards that the geneaology in Luke was identified as Mary's by some.Before then it was an accepted and established fact that both Matthew and Luke concern Joseph.Which makes sense when you know that tribal status is passed through the male line,not female.
When Jesus's only flesh relative on Earth was a woman, who do you the the line comes through?
And how many knew this before he started his ministry?
Joseph was accepted as being Jesus' father,therefore the line came from him by adoption.
Yes, ruling any more in Judah! There's the hint that you are missing. Jesus will rule all of Israel, and all the world. The book link I gave you above explains this.
Taking a cue from what you said,this prophecy concerns all of Israel,not just Judah.
Tis also comes later, during his kingdom, and the religion isn't Jewish, the Jews were only one tribe of Israel.
The Jews are not one of the 12 tribes.
Again, yet future during his coming Kingdom.
And again,the 2nd Coming does not exist in Judaism.
Simplynoone
Lots of quotes about seeds but no evidence to back up the geneaology.
They did not accept him because even they thought he did not fulfill the prophecies ...(They were expecting a Conquering King etc ) which will happen at his SECOND COMING ...not his first ...they completely missed the prophecies of his FIRST COMING ....which was a lamb without spot or blemish who would be slain ....etc ..(They did not get it just like Jaykll does not get it ) .....
Like doctorex you don't get that the 2nd Coming is a concept of Christianity,not Judaism.The Talmud talks of 2 periods that will take place.The 1st,will bring the world to complete perfection.Important events included among this period are the returning of Jews to Israel and the building of the Third Temple.Did Jesus achieve this? The 2nd,will include a supernatural/spiritual existence.In this period that the entirety of mankind will know God in a physical and visual sense. Clearly the events Christians expect Jesus to do on his 2nd Coming are expected to be done on the 1st coming of the 'jewish' messiah.
AshleyD
Hi there.Hope you don't mind if i reply to all you said as i have already covered many of the points you've brought up.
Yes there is and it is found in Psalms: "He guards all His bones. Not one of them is broken." Psalm 34:20
In Christianity maybe.In Judaism it represents Israel.
Also, neither of those verses make any claim that it would be a male ancestor that would hold sway as Jesus' position.
Really?
Numbers 1:18.
And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month,and they declared their pedigrees after their families,by the house of their fathers,according to the number of the names,from twenty years old and upward,by their polls.
In Judaism the verses state that the line runs through the father.i don't personally see it in Jeremiah 33:17 but they do in Judaism.
moocowman
Cheers mate.
[edit on 2-12-2008 by jakyll]
reply to post by justamomma
Very good post.
I think the major problem with the OT is that Christians only look at it from a Christian angle.They forget that it is part of another religion and was for many centuries before Jesus was around.
They need to look at it from the position of Judaism,see how it relates to them and their beliefs,and only then should they look at it in relation to their own faith.
Very good post.
I think the major problem with the OT is that Christians only look at it from a Christian angle.They forget that it is part of another religion and was for many centuries before Jesus was around.
They need to look at it from the position of Judaism,see how it relates to them and their beliefs,and only then should they look at it in relation to their own faith.
I made a long post to Justamama and it would not post ..it got stuck ...and I had to crtrl alt delete ...not sure what is happening here ...but as I
thought about what WHAT IS THE POINT ..yall do not care at all wether anyone points out where YOUR TWISTING the scriptures to suit your view ..so why
should I bother ..
Actually there is so much here that yall have just plain misinterpreted and twisted that it would take a week to sort this out ...
Jakyll why on earth would we need to go by what Judaism believes ? When they themselves do not even really go by the OT scriptures ...they are just as bad as Christianity is ..they have taken here a little there a little and added their own (Their Rabbi's) tell them what the scriptures say (They write their own weekly sermons etc ....just like Organized Religion does in Christianity ....
They are NO DIFFERENT as far as being APOSTATE as our own Churchs are today...
They also MISSED THEIR OWN MESSIAH .....they AIDED IN HIS DEATH ..they begged for him to be KILLED by the ROMANS ....they MOCKED him and spewed HATRED AT HIM ....(alot like some of you are doing to him) .
That is not anyone I would trust .....
Not to mention the bible says they will ACCEPT the AC (temporarily) because he will come and it will appear that he is fulfilling prophecy (He will come as a conquering King etc ) ......
Justamomma .....
There is one thing I do want to point out (just off the top of my head a very important point from your post) Jesus never TOLD THEM TO WORSHIP HIM >>he said ALL GLORY GOES TO THE FATHER ...(GOD) >.....
The rest you have all messed up too ..
And I also had links to show where SOME JEWS do certainly believe in a HELL ..but they think it will be only a temporary place (like for 12 months) they also believe in a form of Pergatory sort of like the Catholics do ..
BOTH of you have totally gone off your rocker with what scripture is saying (sorry but its true) it is like satan in here TWISTING THE SCRIPTURES
Seriously yall need to get a life and if you dont like this book ...Then WHY NOT FIND ONE YOU DO LIKE ..and pick it to death ...because YOUR OFFENDING me ...JESUS GAVE HIS LIFE FOR ME >.AND YOU ...how can you dishonor him like this ? .(it really brings tears to my eyes and hurts my heart) ............but hey I guess its ok for yall to offend others with your blasphemy but its not ok for them to offend you eh ...why dont YOU both practice what you preach as well ? Since both of you are VERY QUICK to point that out to others when your offended ...
Seriously I dont even think I can post in this thread ..I really do not want to feed SATAN and give him room to OFFEND CHRIST anymore ..
And I am not quitting because I cannot come against what you have pointed out because that is just not true ..I am just not going to WASTE MY TIME >.
Until yall are SERIOUS about wanting to know the truth (INSTEAD OF JUST PLAYING THE DEVILS ADVOCATE) then I see no point in even being in this thread ..
I am ashamed of both of you ....and I am sick of these kinds of posts ..and will do my best to AVOID them in the future ...
yeah I know you could care less ..
[edit on 2-12-2008 by Simplynoone]
Actually there is so much here that yall have just plain misinterpreted and twisted that it would take a week to sort this out ...
Jakyll why on earth would we need to go by what Judaism believes ? When they themselves do not even really go by the OT scriptures ...they are just as bad as Christianity is ..they have taken here a little there a little and added their own (Their Rabbi's) tell them what the scriptures say (They write their own weekly sermons etc ....just like Organized Religion does in Christianity ....
They are NO DIFFERENT as far as being APOSTATE as our own Churchs are today...
They also MISSED THEIR OWN MESSIAH .....they AIDED IN HIS DEATH ..they begged for him to be KILLED by the ROMANS ....they MOCKED him and spewed HATRED AT HIM ....(alot like some of you are doing to him) .
That is not anyone I would trust .....
Not to mention the bible says they will ACCEPT the AC (temporarily) because he will come and it will appear that he is fulfilling prophecy (He will come as a conquering King etc ) ......
Justamomma .....
There is one thing I do want to point out (just off the top of my head a very important point from your post) Jesus never TOLD THEM TO WORSHIP HIM >>he said ALL GLORY GOES TO THE FATHER ...(GOD) >.....
The rest you have all messed up too ..
And I also had links to show where SOME JEWS do certainly believe in a HELL ..but they think it will be only a temporary place (like for 12 months) they also believe in a form of Pergatory sort of like the Catholics do ..
BOTH of you have totally gone off your rocker with what scripture is saying (sorry but its true) it is like satan in here TWISTING THE SCRIPTURES
Seriously yall need to get a life and if you dont like this book ...Then WHY NOT FIND ONE YOU DO LIKE ..and pick it to death ...because YOUR OFFENDING me ...JESUS GAVE HIS LIFE FOR ME >.AND YOU ...how can you dishonor him like this ? .(it really brings tears to my eyes and hurts my heart) ............but hey I guess its ok for yall to offend others with your blasphemy but its not ok for them to offend you eh ...why dont YOU both practice what you preach as well ? Since both of you are VERY QUICK to point that out to others when your offended ...
Seriously I dont even think I can post in this thread ..I really do not want to feed SATAN and give him room to OFFEND CHRIST anymore ..
And I am not quitting because I cannot come against what you have pointed out because that is just not true ..I am just not going to WASTE MY TIME >.
Until yall are SERIOUS about wanting to know the truth (INSTEAD OF JUST PLAYING THE DEVILS ADVOCATE) then I see no point in even being in this thread ..
I am ashamed of both of you ....and I am sick of these kinds of posts ..and will do my best to AVOID them in the future ...
yeah I know you could care less ..
[edit on 2-12-2008 by Simplynoone]
Ok I am sorry ....but Jesus gave up his life for a sorry excuse of a human (ME) and I just cant stand to see him slandered ..no one would ever give
their life for me or for anyone for that matter ..most are so selfish they would not even give their life for their own wife or husband ..and this man
Jesus (SON OF GOD) OFFERED his own life for YOU ..and me and everyone who would believe in him ...and I do not see why that should UPSET anyone like
yourself ...please explain why that would HURT YOU or PISS YOU OFF ? or make you mad or make you want to slander him ? >?>..I would really like to
hear it if you would not mind telling it to me ...........
If he really is GOD IN FLESH wont you be really ashamed ?
So where were we ..
Ok I am going to finish what I started and do my best with this then I am DONE >.
TO clear up about the Temple in Ezek ..that temple is some sort of FUTURE temple I believe that either the JEWS will build or will be build possibly during the thousand years ..or at least thats what I have come to the conclusion of (seriously I do not really know the answer to that )
I do know that Jesus fortold the DESTRUCTION of the temple prior to it actually happening in 70 AD and that was the last temple they have had .
They do have plans though for when their Moshiach comes that he will either HELP them build one or they will build one once he comes ..
Here is from their SITE
The Messianic Idea in Judaism
Belief in the eventual coming of the moshiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the moshiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.
Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. They note that the messianic concept is not mentioned anywhere in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible).
However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The moshiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (acharit ha-yamim), which is the time of the moshiach; thus, the concept of moshiach was known in the most ancient times.
The term "moshiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The moshiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.
The word "moshiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "moshiach" will be used throughout this page.
The Moshiach
The moshiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The moshiach is often referred to as "moshiach ben David" (moshiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.
It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the moshiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the moshiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the moshiach, then that person is not the moshiach.
When Will the Moshiach Come?
There are a wide variety of opinions on the subject of when the moshiach will come. Some of Judaism's greatest minds have cursed those who try to predict the time of the moshiach's coming, because errors in such predictions could cause people to lose faith in the messianic idea or in Judaism itself. This actually happened in the 17th century, when Shabbatai Tzvi claimed to be the moshiach. When Tzvi converted to Islam under threat of death, many Jews converted with him. Nevertheless, this prohibition has not stopped anyone from speculating about the time when the moshiach will come.
Although some scholars believed that G-d has set aside a specific date for the coming of the moshiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the moshiach's coming. In general, it is believed that the moshiach will come in a time when he is most needed (because the world is so sinful), or in a time when he is most deserved (because the world is so good). For example, each of the following has been suggested as the time when the moshiach will come:
* if Israel repented a single day;
* if Israel observed a single Shabbat properly;
* if Israel observed two Shabbats in a row properly;
* in a generation that is totally innocent or totally guilty;
* in a generation that loses hope;
* in a generation where children are totally disrespectful towards their parents and elders;
What Will the Moshiach Do?
Before the time of the moshiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)
The moshiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).
Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age
The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.
Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.
All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.
In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory
CONTINUED
If he really is GOD IN FLESH wont you be really ashamed ?
So where were we ..
Ok I am going to finish what I started and do my best with this then I am DONE >.
TO clear up about the Temple in Ezek ..that temple is some sort of FUTURE temple I believe that either the JEWS will build or will be build possibly during the thousand years ..or at least thats what I have come to the conclusion of (seriously I do not really know the answer to that )
I do know that Jesus fortold the DESTRUCTION of the temple prior to it actually happening in 70 AD and that was the last temple they have had .
They do have plans though for when their Moshiach comes that he will either HELP them build one or they will build one once he comes ..
Here is from their SITE
The Messianic Idea in Judaism
Belief in the eventual coming of the moshiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the moshiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.
Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. They note that the messianic concept is not mentioned anywhere in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible).
However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The moshiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (acharit ha-yamim), which is the time of the moshiach; thus, the concept of moshiach was known in the most ancient times.
The term "moshiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The moshiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.
The word "moshiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "moshiach" will be used throughout this page.
The Moshiach
The moshiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The moshiach is often referred to as "moshiach ben David" (moshiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.
It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the moshiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the moshiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the moshiach, then that person is not the moshiach.
When Will the Moshiach Come?
There are a wide variety of opinions on the subject of when the moshiach will come. Some of Judaism's greatest minds have cursed those who try to predict the time of the moshiach's coming, because errors in such predictions could cause people to lose faith in the messianic idea or in Judaism itself. This actually happened in the 17th century, when Shabbatai Tzvi claimed to be the moshiach. When Tzvi converted to Islam under threat of death, many Jews converted with him. Nevertheless, this prohibition has not stopped anyone from speculating about the time when the moshiach will come.
Although some scholars believed that G-d has set aside a specific date for the coming of the moshiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the moshiach's coming. In general, it is believed that the moshiach will come in a time when he is most needed (because the world is so sinful), or in a time when he is most deserved (because the world is so good). For example, each of the following has been suggested as the time when the moshiach will come:
* if Israel repented a single day;
* if Israel observed a single Shabbat properly;
* if Israel observed two Shabbats in a row properly;
* in a generation that is totally innocent or totally guilty;
* in a generation that loses hope;
* in a generation where children are totally disrespectful towards their parents and elders;
What Will the Moshiach Do?
Before the time of the moshiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)
The moshiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).
Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age
The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.
Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.
All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.
In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory
CONTINUED
What About Jesus?
Jews do not believe that Jesus was the moshiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the moshiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.
On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kokhba was the moshiach. Bar Kokhba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a moshiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kokhba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the moshiach.
Throughout Jewish history, there have been many people who have claimed to be the moshiach, or whose followers have claimed that they were the moshiach: Shimeon Bar Kokhba, Shabbatai Tzvi, Jesus, and many others too numerous to name. Leo Rosten reports some very entertaining accounts under the heading False Messiahs in his book, The Joys of Yiddish. But all of these people died without fulfilling the mission of the moshiach; therefore, none of them were the moshiach. The moshiach and the Olam Ha-Ba lie in the future, not in the past.
Biblical Passages Referring to the Moshiach
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:
* Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
* Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
* Ezekiel 38:16
* Hosea 3:4-3:5
* Micah 4
* Zephaniah 3:9
* Zechariah 14:9
* Daniel 10:14
If you want to know how Jews interpret the passages that Christians consider to be messianic, see the Jews for Judaism website, especially the Knowledge Base under Resources. The Knowledge Base addresses more than 130 of the most common arguments that evangelists make to Jews.
www.jewfaq.org...
Jews do not believe that Jesus was the moshiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the moshiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.
On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kokhba was the moshiach. Bar Kokhba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a moshiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kokhba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the moshiach.
Throughout Jewish history, there have been many people who have claimed to be the moshiach, or whose followers have claimed that they were the moshiach: Shimeon Bar Kokhba, Shabbatai Tzvi, Jesus, and many others too numerous to name. Leo Rosten reports some very entertaining accounts under the heading False Messiahs in his book, The Joys of Yiddish. But all of these people died without fulfilling the mission of the moshiach; therefore, none of them were the moshiach. The moshiach and the Olam Ha-Ba lie in the future, not in the past.
Biblical Passages Referring to the Moshiach
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:
* Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
* Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
* Ezekiel 38:16
* Hosea 3:4-3:5
* Micah 4
* Zephaniah 3:9
* Zechariah 14:9
* Daniel 10:14
If you want to know how Jews interpret the passages that Christians consider to be messianic, see the Jews for Judaism website, especially the Knowledge Base under Resources. The Knowledge Base addresses more than 130 of the most common arguments that evangelists make to Jews.
www.jewfaq.org...
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