Humans are not meant to murder. It's like taking a sports car offroad. The soldier, the car, will break down. We should return to our rightful places in the grand cycle of nature.

[edit on 1-12-2008 by Reddupo]

Yes, and also there are many U.S. soldiers on active duty who are just medicated and sent back out.

There seems to be nothing for the psychological wounds and society in the U.S and U.K. is woefully and willfully ignorant.

My late father had been in the navy and and army, he decended into alchoholism and we are still paying the price.

There should be a world wide law that any political leader cannot advocate military defense or aggression unless he or she agrees that they or their children if any will take active (frontline) service in that theatre itself.

Methinks there would be a lot more 'Jaw jaw' and less war war.

It is a sad state of affairs and I feel for the young soldiers most. I did hear that Ft Campbell in Kentucky has brought on many many doctors and counselors to try and help these soldiers out that are returning from deployments..I hope it works, I pray for it to work...My prayers are with you and your families of soldiers serving overseas!!!

It goes beyond mental health for military members deployed. Is certainly part of it but the DoD needs to do more for our service members.

People are having marital problems, people are having problems readjusting to life out of deployment areas, people are nervous about when that next deployment is going to be. The DoD needs to develop an all inclusive plan to help service members. To include:

-shorter deployments

-longer time on station between deployments

-a mandatory program to help service members adjust to life back on station or civilian life after deployments.

-Identify service members that are having marital problems during deplyments and provide them with counseling

-mandatory mental health evaluations for those who have been involved in combat.

And thats just what I can think of right now, there is so much more that they could be doing right now.

Nice post Bunch..I believe those are the issues that NEED to be addressed and I hope it does get addressed. I remember when I was leaving North Carolina to come home there were so many guys who came home to empty houses, empty bank accounts, empty lives, and there were a few suicides as well..I pains me to know that and I wish there was something I could do..I mean that

Originally posted by Reddupo
Humans are not meant to murder.

How do you figure?

We have the capacity to kill, it is a trait we have carried through generations, it has obviously given us some kind of evolutionary advantage...

It's like taking a sports car offroad.

Humans are complex organisms, sports cars are semi-complex machines which complex organisms created.

Huge difference

The soldier, the car, will break down.

They sure will, but the soldier may not necessarily have a break down because s/he shot another human. The soldier may break down because of the stress of constant bombardments, firefights, or other battle based conditions.

We should return to our rightful places in the grand cycle of nature.

Make no mistake, the human capacity to kill another human is as natural as it gets.



[edit on 1-12-2008 by InSpiteOf]

I apologise, I didn't proprerly answer your question, It's a whole mix of things.

When people leave an organization they are effectively 'displaced' for a time and because many have been involved with or witnessed such extreme violence and or suffering it becomes hard to settle back into 'normal' hum-drum society again especially when there is no one around who can relate to their experiences.

How do they describe a flashback a reliving of a moment with the exact same horror felt? Even to a loved one it can be impossible. How do they fit their family, friends or their religion into everything?

Many may also have survivor guilt they lived while a colleague died, did they do enough? If only they had done thisor that? Also that many felt there was no respect or even acknowledgment from society or it's leaders for the sacrifice they made on behalf of their countries.

There needs to be a proper 'easing out' back into civilian life (but there are never the resources to do this although there are always enough to start wars it seems) a re-learning not to be 'on-guard' all the time and an acception that the job they did was worth it and they did what they could and learn to deal with and know that any guiltfeelings are normal though there is nothing to feel guilty about and it's just the mind trying to rationalize an unrational situation like war and learn to cope with the mental and or physical injuries.

We don't give enough credit to these people, we can support them and still not support the reasons for a conflict and we don't do that I'm afraid so it's left to charities to do what governments should.

I say thank you to them and those of you out there still taking the brunt of political action.

This is going to be a long post (for me at least), please bare with me though, as what I am going to express is from my perspective.

Lot of us don't take the meds. What they have given me, I refuse to take. Never was one for pharms , and they don't cure a da mn thing. Some do take theirs though, probably a placebo effect, or some thing. Who knows, but I doubt the medicated army will last long. This is just a new way for the army to say they tried to give us treat ment and rehabilitation.

What I would like to know, is do these so called studies reflect the difference between combat arms vs non combat arms MOS's.

Because a few of my friends have mentioned how the "POGs"(pronouned with the o as in "oh" or Personnel Other than Grunts, as non combat MOS soldiers are called by combat soldiers.),complain about dumb stuff, like guarding the gym or filling out paper work. While we were out getting hit by IEDs and mortared or RPGed and shot at, they stayed on the FoB.
(Let me clarify this really fast. Not all soldiers are trained past basic level skill, in other words they havn't shot a rifle since basic, and don't actively go out side the wire. These are cooks, laundry service, communications aka TOC bit ches and other jobs not related to direct combat).


One guy had the nerve to say he was scared for his life in the dining facility when the FoB got mortared on the opposite side (about a half mile away), but acted all tough later on. But complained of PTSD yet never saw action or dealt with seeing his buddies blown up, as the friends I mentioned earlier have. I know this is fact because I was there and saw it with them...

Yet they don't complain or make a deal out of it, we just keep to our selves and wonder wtf is going on with everyone. How is it different for people who have gone out the wire and been in the sh it, that much from those who never have. I can see possibly, soldiers who have been in combat being suicidal because of the crap they have gone and go through.

Because many return back home (by home I mean the USA, in garrison) to be treated like a nobody, even though they "earned" their combat patch. It is a game of favoritism back home, and many don't play games after being through so much. Medical gets put aside until the unit redeploys and gets a screening. It was the same for me and dental, I only got into dental after a year of trying to make an appointment because of pre-deployment screening SRP as it is called.

The people we talk to are either A "civilians" or B POGs who never deployed, yet both act like they are better, but their job is to help us, and they don't.
Soldiers who do have psychological issues from TBI and real PTSD go to "restoration centers" to talk to a professional, yet wait a month or more to do so. When they do, they get about an hour a month if that. Then prescribed the meds, which as mentioned earlier don't cure diddley.

What are soldiers to do, they are alienated from every one who didn't go through what they did, no one want to listen, and half the time the soldier ain't going to talk to just any one about combat. It is too much to deal with every day, not sleeping and when sleep does come it is in one or two hour fits.

Restless horror filled memories that no one should have, no amount of talking or meds will change that. This is why Nam, Korean, WWII and WWI vets were known for not talking about it. Because it's one of those things you just don't talk about. Period, it cant be changed and nothing will make it go away.

This is what I suspect happened to the suicides, they had more trouble than they could handle alone, and even though it is said the military has medical. If you can get in to be seen is one thing hard enough, but the barely standard service is not even worth it.

My opinion is the soldiers need to be with other soldiers who have actually been in the tough situations. These are the ones who will under stand. A program needs to be set up for soldiers by soldiers.

How ever, on the other side though is the non suicides, who I think have had good friends that were by each others side, even back home watching out for each other. That is what helped me get through the last year, and I know it helped them as well.

I've said more than I should have, but if even this glimpse shows a fraction of what is going on, hopefully it helps one see that much.

It has been almost a year to the month since my unit has returned home, and this is the most I have mentioned about what we deal with, and it isn't even all of it. Others have their side of things, so I will leave it at that.

Take it as you will, maybe one day the military will actually do what makes sense.

The word to question in the OP's post is: What is "High"?

There have been suicides recorded in modern armies back to the days of the American Revolutionary War. There are also anecdotal reports from earlier sources. But none of these were conducted in a methodical manner. One can only guess at what the suicide rate for, say Prussian soldiers in the Wars of Frederick the Great, or suicides amongst Crusaders in the Second Crusade. Although these current numbers may be "high" in comparison to recent statistics, there is no way to say that they are "high" as compared to average suicide rates for armies in general.

From the recollections of reports I have read, suicides seem to escalate in 'hopeless' wars and wars that drag on for an extended period of time. Also, suicides seem to be more prevalent in armies of societies that cherish individual life. All this would seem logical. The current situation for American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan may seem hopeless and unending. Coupled with a general societal indoctrination against killing this could provide for the 'spike' in suicides.

Altogether though, I think these articles are just mere sensationalism to provide a headline. I'm really dubious as to its relevance. That is not to say that it isn't a tragedy - just that I don't think it's an unprecedented event.

Originally posted by ADVISOR
The people we talk to are either A "civilians" or B POGs who never deployed, yet both act like they are better, but their job is to help us, and they don't.

I found this line very interesting. For all intent and purpose, these "(B) POG's" are soldiers, that have not seen the horrors of battle, but act as if they are superior over those that have. At least that is what i gathered from your account.


My question to you is, why do you feel they act this way? Is it because the US Army or Corps selected others over them, to serve in combat situations? Or is there a completely different, underlying hierarchy in the US Military Service that us Civi's do no know about?

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Or is there a completely different, underlying hierarchy in the US Military Service that us Civi's do no know about?

Yes

Originally posted by passenger
The word to question in the OP's post is: What is "High"?

Tis the title of the article.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
How do you figure?

We have the capacity to kill, it is a trait we have carried through generations, it has obviously given us some kind of evolutionary advantage...

Murder has given us no evolutionary advantage. It was not war that gave us agriculture, or fire. War gave us only more things to kill with. Ability to fight for survival - of course we have that. Fighting for survival, and killing for an idea, two different things. One is natural, one is not natural.

Humans are complex organisms, sports cars are semi-complex machines which complex organisms created.

Huge difference

My metaphor was to say that sports cars are not meant to go offroad, as man is not meant to murder for an idea (especially one that is not his own). Both will breakdown.

They sure will, but the soldier may not necessarily have a break down because s/he shot another human. The soldier may break down because of the stress of constant bombardments, firefights, or other battle based conditions.

Murder was my word for war. We have no disagreement here.

Make no mistake, the human capacity to kill another human is as natural as it gets.

We have evolved from animals and primitive who need to kill another to eat. We have evolved that into man, with ego, who no longer kills to eat, but kills to dominate. Perhaps it is time we evolve into man, who realizes there is a chance that the need to kill will be gone soon.

Maybe they're killing themselves because they realized they are killing other human beings for no reason at all!

I don't know how most soldiers live with themselves. They know that it's a wrong war, and yet they go and join anyways!

The real brave people are the ones who refuse to sign up and contribute to the problem.

The less murderers on the planet the better.

I agree that these men and women should get the best treatement available.
More importantly though the wars need to stop.

Treat the 'walking casualties' of war by all means, but more importantly work towards stopping what caused their pain in the first place.

Treating the symptoms will only get you so far, eventually the root problem needs to be addressed.

"A program needs to be set up for soldiers by soldiers"

That's the nail on the head. Remember also this is a form of guerilla war or street warfare like in Northern Ireland, so the enemy may not be obvious, therefore no one can be trusted which results in greater, longer term stress.

"Passenger"; it is an issue that can only get worse if not dealt with, my view on the post is that mental illness causes suicide.So catch the illness.

'InSpiteOf'; The military are worlds of their own with their own language, traditions, in jokes and rules of interaction, so yesall military instutions are different.

Something very strange has happened in the U.S. and the U.K. in recent times,,there is no activism, nobody gets out into the streets to protest or downs tools and therefore gain media attention which could result in the Military finally getting the message.

Yes, understand absolutely your point of those not being 'active' participants as it were and that not only does a distinction need to be made, It needs to be soon. As it's no point if you guys who are facing the brunt are having to be put on a waiting list which includes non-active as you are the ones most in need.

The acute cases who have seen battle should be right at the top and I'm afraid the only way i can think of is for youto make yourselves heard and for more medical and psychological proffessionals to have come from that very background of active service who can then not only empathize but also recognise what is needed and how soon.

I wasn't aware that they maybe lump in less acute cases and will try find this out during the week.

But here's the rub; Until the army and society stop regarding psychological illness as the poor cousin of physical illness they will do damage to the military establishment in the long term.

Mental illness kills also: through not taking care of yourself, self-medicating, giving up the will to live from a feeling of worthlessness which results eventually in suicide; a way of death that relatives can never get over their grief, with their own guilt that they were helpless to understand the helplessness of their forces loved ones in trying to explain what they had to face.

Each time a soldier is pensioned out due to illness, that is hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of training and more importantly a wealth of personal experience and advice to future troops that they can never put a price on. More fool them.

If that is the case then enough publicity should be made of the fact that those who are in crisis and in dire need of help can effectively be in a waiting list behind an army chef who just needs a short course of sedatives as oppossed to theacute which may need suicide watch, antidepressants, antipsychotic plus sedatives and sleeping pills not to mention hospitalization over a long term with future therapy.

Definitely soldiers can only relate to other soldiers who have gone through the same thing, instead of soldiers beinginvalided out they are the very guys who the forces need the most. there should be a formal military that you guys can sit downwith the younger ones who will go through what you did where you can sit and listen to them and be maybe the only
person who can fully understand what they have just gone through and how you deal with it. Just like you said, looking out for each other'. But it should be something that the forces and especially the officers upwards should be compelled to understand whether they like it or not.

Regarding marriage and family, the forces have a 'duty of care' in my view to bring the families right on board so they can understand that while they are frustrated at the separation time there is a hierarchy of care required and if they were made to understand what their loved ones were going through and they may return damaged from war it would go a long way to their insight of what has happened. Shorter deployment is needed definitely..

But that can only come from the ones like yourselves who have been through it, not somebody who skirts around the sidelines of active combat and certainly not from generals although high up the military foodchain can be ignorant or worse, indifferent to their troops plight. Educate them.

It needs to be explained to the military leaders that there is a vacant position in armed forces that needs to be filled, and that is a battallion of men and women like yourselves who can support each other and advise others on what to expect in theatre but more importantly when they get back, how to deal with life again.

I'm always hearing about troop morale and how important that is, but this could be one of the greatest gifts to that. For these soldiers to know when they return that there will be fellows in arms who will know exactly what they are talking about and exactly how they are feeling.

It's so frustrating, as governments and military are effectively shooting themselves in the foot as far as the future of
the military goes and that by not treating their troops with proper respect and care it will have a long-term effect on not only the public's view of the military but also it will disuade others from joining the armed forces in the future thus losing future wars?

Try and take the medication especially if it is an antidepressant they take at least a couple of weeks to get the benefit noticed although even then everyone is different and if you find one isn't working after about three weeks you must demandanother.

But there is power in numbers, can you imagine how quickly proper care would be introduced if every single soldiers refused orders for one full day, grouped together and demanded to be heard for better conditions? They can't court martial thousands of men and women if there is the threat that thousands more would drop arms in support. It's a childish
example but the more that speak out..sorry for the essay.