“OMG! ‘Faith’ and ‘Quantum Physics’ are the SAME thing!” Well Maybe…??

“OMG! ‘Faith’ and ‘Quantum Physics’ are the SAME thing!” Well Maybe…??

Admission: It’s possible this thread will fall on its face…please know I am trying here…and would be honored for the readers input…thank you for your time.

Prerequisites:
1) My hope this will be (for the most part) a positive discussion…not a DEBATE primarily.
2) My hope this thread will be a “search” for truth.
3) I acknowledge the OP will be scattered, I’m trying to set forth a few things…TO see IF there is a connection.
4) My hope is to attract some brilliant ‘believers’ and ‘skeptics’ alike.
5) I will be using the bible, so if you can’t play nice, there are many other bashing opportunities here on ATS.
6) I/we will probably be using ‘secular’ info as well, so please no ‘fundamentalist’ ranting…I’m allowed to say that, cause I’m one of them (sorta)
7) Skeptics, at least for a while ‘roll with this’…we need some out-of-the-box thinkers, ok?
8) My last hope (and a big stretch I know) would be to set aside our individual assumptions/beliefs/etc…at least, initially and see if we can find common ground/the truth….ok?

Acknowledgements:
1) Thanks to the founders of ATS for providing the vehicle for discussion….and to the mods for what you do….I’m saying this because we would love your involvement or letting those know that can contribute in a constructive manner…thanks in advance!
2) I may not be able to ‘pull this together’ concisely, but will try…so please be patient, maybe WE can?

Areas of Contribution:
Links: search.live.com...
1) Quantum Physics (OT is a rookie here) "Quantum" comes from the Latin meaning "how much." It refers to the discrete units of matter and energy that are predicted by and observed in quantum physics. Light waves act like particles and particles act like waves (called wave particle duality). Matter can go from one spot to another without moving through the intervening space Quantum optics is a branch of quantum physics that focuses primarily on the behavior of light, or photons. At the level of quantum optics, the behavior of individual photons has a bearing on the outcoming light, as opposed to classical optics, which was developed by Sir Isaac Newton. Quantum Electrodynamics (QED): Quantum electrodynamics (QED) is the study of how electrons and photons interact. Unified Field Theory is a collection of research paths that are trying to reconcile quantum physics with Einstein's theory of general relativity, often by trying to consolidate the fundamental forces of physics. Source: physics.about.com...

2) Cosmology (OT is a rookie here, too)

Links: search.live.com...

Cosmology, study of the universe as a whole, including its distant past and its future. Cosmologists study the universe observationally—by looking at the universe—and theoretically—by using physical laws and theories to predict how the universe should behave. Cosmology is a branch of astronomy, but the observational and theoretical techniques used by cosmologists involve a wide range of other sciences, such as physics and chemistry. Cosmology is distinguished from cosmogony, which used to mean the study of the origin of the universe but now usually refers only to the study of the origin of the solar system. Source: Encarta Encyclopedia


3) Hebrew and Greek scriptures (I am more familiar here)

4) 7 Dimensions/Super String theory/unified string theory????? (OT clueless here, too)


Definitions/Assumptions/Factors:
1) ‘Faith’-Greek ‘pitis’ Translation=belief (spoken)

2) ‘Substance’- Greek ‘hupostasis’ Translation=substructure/actual existence/real being/ substantial quality, nature, of a person or ‘thing’

Hebrews 11:1 ‘FAITH’ is the ‘SUBSTANCE’ of THINGS…


3) Faith mixed with words creates things…All those Genesis phrases, ”And God said…and saw” Is creation a big affirmation of God? Romans 10:17 says “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the WORDS of God.

4) Jesus Christ ‘HOLDS’ all things together. Here are some verses and thoughts…
a. Verses: John 1:1-3 & 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
b. Verses: Col 1:15-17 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
c. Thought: The Word of God was in the beginning before anything was created. The Word of God always was, the Word of God had no beginning. In the beginning the Word of God was God. The Word of God created all things that ever existed and nothing has ever existed apart from the Word of God. The Word of God became flesh, He became a human, He became one of us and lived with us. He revealed the glory of God to us, He made God known to us. Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Jesus Christ is God and always was God, the Creator of all things. Jesus Christ is the one and only Almighty God.
d. Thought: We cannot see God but when we see Jesus Christ we see God, because Jesus Christ is the image of God. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to reveal God to us. Being called the first-born of all creation could not mean that He was the first to be created because He Himself is the creator of all things. The first-born of all creation conveys the idea that He has the birthright to all creation, the idea that He is the head of all creation. All creation is subject to Him, He is the ruler of all creation, because He was before all creation and all creation comes from Him. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, not only created all things by His power but He also holds all things together by His power. Jesus Christ is God Almighty.


5) Laminin-see youtube…it’s a bit chessy, but I felt it contributes to the discussion. Start at time 2:40 for the meat (again, sorry for the background piano/emotion, just listen to the content) www.youtube.com...


6) What’s missing in Quantum Physics? Mathematically, why doesn’t it all break apart? The more we learn about subatomic particles called ‘gluons’, the more the universe seems to be made of nothing at all? Scientist says that all the electrons and subatomic particles of an atom are held together in their precise position and orbit by an invisible force, by which without it, everything would fall apart and reality as we know it, would cease to exist in an instant.
Quotes from Discovery Magazine in 2000, “The weirdness comes from the gluons. Quantum chromodynamics, the force that holds protons together, is modeled closely on quantum electrodynamics, the force that holds atoms together—but the gluons change screening to antiscreening, intuitive to bizarre.” And, “The closer you look, the more you find the proton is dissolving into lots of particles, each of which is carrying very, very little energy," says Wilczek. "And the elements of reality that triggered the whole thing, the quarks, are these tiny little things in the middle of the cloud. In fact, if you follow the evolution to infinitely short distances, the triggering charge goes to zero. If you really study the equations, it gets almost mystical." More info here: discovermagazine.com...

Another question? Saw this on ‘Genius Forum’ Is there substance that holds all things together? According to the ‘Bundle Theory’ there isn't. It says all things are just bundles or sums of their properties. The objection to this view comes from the substrate theory which asks: If there is no substance what is it that holds these properties together? There must be some substance that has these properties is what they say.

We never reach the substance because whenever we talk about something we talk about its properties. The definition of substance makes it impossible. Substance would be something that has no properties, which is unthinkable.

At the fundamental level all things are made out of subatomic particles, if I'm not mistaken. Namely, electrons, protons and neutrons. The number of protons in a nucleus determines an atom's chemical element, and chemical elements and their various combinations are what everything is made of (excluding dark energy and dark matter).

However there is an even more fundamental level. Leptons, quarks (particles that make up protons and neutrons) and gauge bosons (which are the carriers of fundamental forces) are regarded as fundamental particles because they have no substructure that we know of. If this is true then they are the particles from which everything else is made of, which makes them the closest we get to substance.”


7) God is LIGHT and the speed of light

Bible Verse: I John 1:5 Verse: This is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.
Thought: The language in this passage is not metaphorical. John does not assert that God is "like light" or that he "can be compared to light." He asserts that God is light, and contrasts this light to darkness. Darkness is the absence of light.
Speed of Light: Is defined such that the speed of light in a vacuum is exactly 299,792,458 miles per second.

So… If you could spin a carousel fast enough to get its rim moving at nearly the speed of light, would time stand still for people on the carousel? At least in the theoretical sense, this idea is reasonable. If the carousel were spinning so that the outer edge of the carousel moved at nearly the speed of light, then time would appear to slow down for people on the carousel. When the carousel riders looked out at the world spinning by, the days would pass very quickly. So the people on the carousel would age very slowly relative to people not on the carousel. This would create, essentially, a time machine that lets the passengers on the carousel travel into the future. Certainly there are scientists that surmise there is no time at a post speed of light dimension?


8) God is ETERNAL
Bible Verses: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world
are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,
even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:20
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God,
be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. John 4:24
The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.
Deuteronomy 33:27

9) Infinite vs. Finite: Since there is (supposedly) no time in eternity…at that realm there is no past, present and future. How does ‘vantage point’ help with perception? God did say IAM that IAM…from what I’ve studied that means the continual state of BEING. Could that be past the speed of light being? Eternity? Another dimension?

With ALL that said….here goes!

Implications/Questions?
A) Is there a connection/similarity between faith and material? If so, what?
B) Are words the bridge?
C) Is the Lord Jesus the missing ‘substance’ holding all ‘things’ together?
D) Is there time in eternity? Are past-on relatives ‘waiting’ for us in Heaven?
E) Is ‘speed’ the key to the infinite? Is it His home?
F) How does the Law of Attraction fit?
G) Did Christ ‘slow down’ to be the incarnate?
H) Can we (humans) mimic the creation-theme (on a small scale?)
I) Are the ramifications for ‘creationism’, ID, and evolution here?
J) What other bible verses would add to the dialog?
K) What other secular sources/schools of discipline that would contribute?
L) What other faith tenants/doctrines could help the discussion?
M) Posters_fill_the_blank other questions?

Summary
I realize there is much to ‘digest’ and ‘assimilation’ takes time, so I’ll be watching. There is much to this transcendence and I look forward to your input.

OldThinker

God is the observer in each of us. Pure consciousness, which can neither be created nor destroyed.

Quantum physics(part of it anyway) is the only science that does not ignore consciousness(god).

What you see in quantum physics, and what they consider to be "possibilities" are merely just hints of a parallel dimension next to us. The observer simply chooses what comes next on a deeper level.

The universe is actually static and time does not exist. Our choices are what guides us across the universe. The only way for free will to exist is for every possibility to be there. Free will is a basic requirement for intelligence, without free will to try out those possibilities, all intelligence is out the window. Instead, everything would just a sequence of events in a chain reaction.

Where people like Jesus come in, or what you call faith is he shows you the correct path by example of what is needed to you. To make the correct choices that lead down the correct path. Most christians however are more worried about persecuting those who do wrong, which is to ignore the example and do the wrong yourself(hypocrisy).

People think about entering other dimensions, but fail to realize that we go forward in the dimensions all the "time". That is what creates the illusion of time, just the change of a new dimension.

I have high hopes for quantum physics, but it is held back a good bit by science. Which does not allow for consciousness in the mix, and is only valid in the realm of action/reaction of the physical.

reply to post by badmedia


Badmedia,

You are the first....thanks for that!!!

OT

Now let me go back and read it all, ok?

Originally posted by badmedia
Where people like Jesus come in, or what you call faith is he shows you the correct path by example of what is needed to you. To make the correct choices that lead down the correct path. Most christians however are more worried about persecuting those who do wrong, which is to ignore the example and do the wrong yourself(hypocrisy).

Great point here...

We should be about reaching out and seeing the best in folks!

OT

I'll try to answer your questions with a more detailed description of the universe and see if I can put it into perspective for you.

The universe is static in the eyes of god. As he knows all, in that perspective there is no time as nothing changes, it's just a big huge static creation. In this perspective, it is like taking a movie and stretching the entire film out at once and looking at it. In that film there is no motion, no time, nothing.

Only when we put ourselves into a limited perspective does this motion, time and such occur. As we no longer see the entire universe in 1 big picture, we see only certain parts at certain times. When you take that same movie film as before, cut it up into frames and present them 1 at a time in a limited way, suddenly the movie has time, motion and all those things.

Now, in our perspective it seems as though time and things are completely linear. The same way a movie is linear. But this is not because the universe follows linear time or is linear. It is simply our path through the universe when in our perspective of time makes it seem linear. This is what quantum physics is starting to understand with the wave particles.

But, when you look at the wave of particles rather than the single particle, what you are doing is viewing the nearest dimensions/possibilities. So, rather than god viewing a single film, it is like taking a unlimited amount of films and setting them next to each other. Each film is almost exactly like the previous, with only a small tiny difference in each.

The choices we make are what determines the direction we head in this, which again comes out in linear perspective so is not obvious. If you right now choose to go rob a bank, you will likely end up in a dimension where you are in jail. If you are nice to someone, you will likely end up in a dimension where that person is your friend, or someone who smiles/waves at you. What you are doing is basically creating a path based on your choices.

In everything you do you set along a path. If you want to get something out of the fridge, then the first thing you do is visualize a path to the fridge. You are actually going to a dimension where you are getting something out of the fridge. If you instead choose just to raise your arm in the air, you will end up in that dimension.

But the choices we truly make are based in our actions. Not just saying "Oh I want this to happen". This is where movies that talk about the law of attraction come short. They never tell you that you have to actually create a path for that attraction to come to you. Not just clearing out a spot in your garage to get that car, but also to work or find a viable way of getting it, just as you can't say - I wish that thing in the fridge was here, and expect it is going to get there. You have to actually get up and walk to the fridge.

And this is where Jesus/Faith comes into the picture. It is not enough to simply believe in Jesus, you have to actually walk the path he showed you. You have to take the actions and make the decisions that mimic him, then you will make the correct choices that will lead you into the dimension of heaven. If you do bad things, then you go down dimensions where bad things happen. Thus why the hypocrite doesn't get to heaven, because of his own actions, not just because he knew it was wrong and believed the action to be wrong.

The simply omission of the paths in not only religion but in movies like the secret that misled and tell a lie.

Diehard Christians call this stuff "new age" and reject it all, without realizing it is talking about the same basic things.

Hope that answers most of your questions.

Originally posted by badmedia
Diehard Christians call this stuff "new age" and reject it all, without realizing it is talking about the same basic things.

Hope that answers most of your questions.

Yes it does/starts to...great response!!!

DIEHARD CHRISTIANS? I had a vision of Bruce Wilson saying a few hail mary's

whoa... I come by a little late, and looks like I have some homework to do already

I did want to get this one in there though...

Since quantum physics deals alot with time, and spacetime, and time and space (all different concepts from what I've read)... I wanted to open my posting here with the words of Dr Who...

Time is not how you think it is... it is made of wibbly wobbly, timey wimey stuff

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey is an awesome description IMHO :p

Dr Who is awesome...

I'll hopefully post something more constructive than ambiguous quotes after I do a little homework

reply to post by nj2day



I thought you'd get a kick out of this one...


I realize this is a bit heavy, but its been perculating in my brain for awhile...

OT

B) Are words the bridge?

You're doing it! wohoo! you're drawing the connection I've tried to get people to realize for a long while now...

except, currently, words are the "river" a bridge must be built over!

I've mentioned before that if everyone was allowed to come up with their own definition of the word "god", there would be no distinction between an thiests and atheists...

In respect to making peace between all religions and atheists, Words are the river dividing the two camps...

I have no idea what the bridge could be over the rivier... if I knew that, I'd be screaming it from the top of a mountain, so that the madness can end, and we can all get along...

Sorry OT... not quantum... like I said.. homework...

Looking for my Quantum books now..




[edit on 1-12-2008 by nj2day]

Found this article. from a professor at Piedmount...obviously from the religious side...but more info to discuss/contribute...

It is not enough for me to proclaim that God is responsible for all this unity. Instead, I want to proclaim that God is the unity -- the very energy, the very intelligence, the very elegance and passion that make it all go. This is the God who is not somewhere (up there, down here) but everywhere, the God who may be prayed to in all directions at once. This is also the God beyond all directions, who will still be here (wherever "here" means) when the universe either dissipates into dust or swallows itself up again. Paul Tillich's name for this divine reality was "the ground of being." The only thing I can think of that is better than that is the name God revealed to Moses: "I Am Who I Am."

For those interested here's the rest of it... www.religion-online.org...

OT

Thank you for doing this thread!

I would like to include senses into the equation. It is something that cannot be explained well in words - yet we can base our lives on trusting this instinct often from God directly, or accessing his energy.

Heb. 11:1 (the definition of faith) "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld."

Recognizing a truth without any "Proof" that it exists, but acting on it as though it were in front of our face.

Perhaps the further a person grows in his connection to God the more one can tune into his flow and access things of the spirit that can be considered a miracle or quantum physics.

I liked, "What the Bleep do We Know."

reply to post by nj2day



Here's one for you...regarding words...

It's a stretch I know...


EVer thought about the sounds you make when you/me/we breath?


Take a deep breath and listen....


Its a two syllable word...

reply to post by MatrixProphet


MP....HEY! Appreciate the time!!!


That FAITH definition is deep for sure...


This has been a gut thing for me...for a while...can't explain though...?

This has been a gut thing for me...for a while...can't explain though...?

It has for me too. It explained my spiritual connection to Jah and gave it sanity where so many would believe differently. It helped me to believe the impossible.

reply to post by OldThinker


I totally agree on your assessment, many scriptures in the bible seem to lean heavily on this fact not theory. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". ...Hebrews:11. Just in this one verse it seems iron clad, Not to mention many others. I want to thank you for this thread, because it will shed light to many who are unaware.............

Found this quote on a positive thinkers forum on Amazom...

Just been googling to see if there may be supplemental material out there..

There have been four landmark discoveries that link together your faith and science in an unprecedented way:

Discovery 1: There is a field of energy that connects all creation

oh the heck with all this cut and pasting...here's the rest...

Discovery 2: This field plays the role of a container, a bridge and a mirror for the beliefs within us
Discovery 3: The field is nonlocal and holographic. Every part of it is connected to every other, and each piece mirrors the whole on a smaller scale. (Just as our DNA)
Discovery 4: We communicate with the field through the language of emotion
What I want you to see in all these scientific determinations is that science is just now confirming what the Bible has been saying for centuries, and that atoms can change based on information provided to it, either through thought, emotion, or words. And if an atom is effected by thought, emotion, or words, then molecules are effected by thought, emotion, or words; and if molecules are effected then matter can be effected and changed, and if matter, then everything around you!


Source: www.amazon.com...

reply to post by rikk7111



rikki7111,

welcome!

any thoughts on the ramifications on my last list of questions..?

OT

Love that avatar!

Originally posted by MatrixProphet

This has been a gut thing for me...for a while...can't explain though...?

It has for me too. It explained my spiritual connection to Jah and gave it sanity where so many would believe differently. It helped me to believe the impossible.

MP...For me if was all about logic....at the beginning...now it's a relationship thing....


Here's a little background on me...short thread... www.belowtopsecret.com...

Originally posted by rikk7111
reply to post by OldThinker

 

I totally agree on your assessment, many scriptures in the bible seem to lean heavily on this fact not theory. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". ...Hebrews:11. Just in this one verse it seems iron clad, Not to mention many others. I want to thank you for this thread, because it will shed light to many who are unaware.............

did you get a chance to view that 8 min youtube on Laminin, mentioned in the OP? I've seen that guy speak....seems sincere?

Originally posted by nj2day

B) Are words the bridge?

You're doing it! wohoo! you're drawing the connection I've tried to get people to realize for a long while now...

except, currently, words are the "river" a bridge must be built over!

I've mentioned before that if everyone was allowed to come up with their own definition of the word "god", there would be no distinction between an thiests and atheists...

In respect to making peace between all religions and atheists, Words are the river dividing the two camps...

I have no idea what the bridge could be over the rivier... if I knew that, I'd be screaming it from the top of a mountain, so that the madness can end, and we can all get along...

Sorry OT... not quantum... like I said.. homework...

Looking for my Quantum books now..




[edit on 1-12-2008 by nj2day]

Thx man...I found these sites for your study...

The startling discovery made by the quantum physicists is that if you break matter into smaller and smaller pieces you eventually reach a point where those pieces - electrons, protons, et al. - no longer possess the traits of objects. Although they can sometimes behave as if they were a compact little particle, physicists have found that they literally possess no dimension.

Source: www.khouse.org...

And...

Quantum mechanics is the study of mechanical systems whose dimensions are close to the atomic scale, such as molecules, atoms, electrons, protons and other subatomic particles. Quantum mechanics is a fundamental branch of physics with wide applications. Quantum theory generalizes classical mechanics to provide accurate descriptions for many previously unexplained phenomena such as black body radiation and stable electron orbits. The effects of quantum mechanics become evident at the atomic and subatomic level, and they are typically not observable on macroscopic scales. Superfluidity is one of the known exceptions to this rule.

Source: wiki