Long, long, long time lurker & brand new poster here. I've followed a lot of the 9/11 conspiracy theories for a while now, and have finally found a question I feel worth speaking up for.

The process of argument & counter-argument is fascinating to me. For at least a year now, I've followed the threads on the subject back and forth. Watching the theories and the rebuttals evolve is inspiring to me -- it's like watching a high-stakes chess match. How each side probes the other for weak points, and subsequently revises their own argument is a shining example of the power of collected human thought in action.

But now I've got a question for both sides... and this is just personal curiousity. After all the reading, and knowing only what people post up on a topic that inspires deep personal feelings, I'm very curious as to what's behind the motivation to pursue this issue.

For the 9/11 Truth Movement adherents - would you classify yourself as devoutly religious, devout atheists, or a middle-of-the-road spiritual person?

So much of the pro-conspiracy theory writings are seething with distrust of any large organization, and I wonder if that applies to your spiritual beliefs as well? Do you belong to, or trust a church? If you don't trust the government, what do you trust in? What captures your faith?


And for the skeptics, I'd ask the same question. Those who fight the conspiracy theories, do you trust religion? God? The lizard people? Social order? Or do you find beauty and solace in the empirical facts of mathematics?


I'll apologize now if I'm off-topic, in the wrong forum, or just completely off my rocker. (I'm also putting on my asbestos suit, because I know that querying people about religion in a forum that gets this volatile is like pouring gasoline onto open fire.) This is my opening contribution to the forums here, but since I'm more of an artist than a scientist, I haven't had much to concretely contribute until this question.

And really, my question boils down to trust -- who do you trust, and why? I think the brainpower expended on both sides of the issue is pretty phenomenal, but I'm not comfortable with the worldview that either side of the issue is proposing.

To my reading, the conspiracy theories seem mostly based around a rejection of improbability... That the military stand-down, the security checkpoints, the transponders, and the disorganized government response, that it's too staggeringly improbable that it all happened that way by chance.

The rebuttal arguments, on the other hand, seem rooted in factual data, in a way that suggests we live in an equationally-predetermined universe, that chaotic events happen and science can explain the outcome of everything.

So that leads to my pondering - what role does spiritual need play in the drive to understanding?

Again, apologies if this is inflammatory or way off-topic... not my intention at all.

Originally posted by detroitslim
would you classify yourself as devoutly religious, devout atheists, or a middle-of-the-road spiritual person?

I don't consider myself a "9/11 Truth Movement adherent" because I didn't come into this as any kind of group, I never joined one, and the only time I speak with people about it is when I post here, or as it may happen to come up in conversations with other people.

But to get at what you're driving at, I'm agnostic: I don't know. I don't believe in the "God" most people do, which is vague and usually no more defined than "the guy who made everything," but I think the gnostics and some other groups were driving at more abstract concepts that are more philosophical and less religious. I like philosophies, and sciences, and of course the arts. Not big on organized religion, though, you are correct.

I can see already that you are biased in your post.. But to say there is no factual data on the 911 truth movement is ridicolous.. Consider evidence of thermate on wtc steel.. This is as factual as it gets.. I don't see how the whole religion thing fits into all this... My guess is that this is your attempt to label the 911 truth movement as religious extremists.. lol nice try

I believe in G-d but I do not believe in man made Religion.
Several years ago, I did a lot of research on Christianity; I learned that this Religion was corrupt. Same as 911 it is also corrupt, I feel we have many liars at the top concealing the truth. I love my Country and I feel it is my duty to find the truth and expose the guilty party. I do not believe in our Government as much as I used to after I reliesed we where lied in to a war with no ending insight, I have lost a lot of faith in our Government. The Government said oops, our information was all wrong oh well, lets get all of our favorite contractors for the (cough) oil companies, and rake in all the loot we can get our greedy dirty hands on, at the same time we can now add a new branch to our already over sized and over budget Government *HOMELAND SECURITY*! Oh yes and we can get billions of dollars from our taxpayers to pay for this new department and the sheep will gladly do it (Oh please! Mr. Government please protects us from the terrorists) that we are willing to give up “our” freedom for security.
Really, with a Government who lies to us all the time, who needs to worry about terrorists!

But to say there is no factual data on the 911 truth movement is ridicolous.. Consider evidence of thermate on wtc steel..

Sorry if you misread that, but I didn't say that there is no factual data on the 9/11 Truth Movement. Both sides have a mountain of facts and technical data supporting their positions. It simply appears to me that many of the counter-arguments are rooted mostly in technical rebuttals, and offer very little 'big picture' views that the pro-conspiracy people are offering.

Nor would I label any pro-conspiracy types (and is there a more proper name for each group?) as religious extremists. It doesn't seem like either end of the spectrum would identify as anything other than 'atheist', because religious extremism doesn't lend itself to the advanced critical thinking that both sides have evolved.

Thus, my curiousity.

Like bsray11, I'm an agnostic who sits right in the middle of the spectrum. I'm intrigued by both pro- and anti- conspiracy scenarios, mostly because both positions are so volatile and extreme that it raises the question of "what do you really believe in?"

Is it possible to trust the government and believe in a 9/11 conspiracy? Is it possble that chance, coincidence, and dumb luck met in a spectacular convergence that resulted in the WTC collapse?

As I said above, it comes down to a question of who do you trust, and why? Does the Popular Mechanics report answer your questions, or the multple sources in 'Loose Change'? And I'm very very curious if people with strong religious convictions are lining up on one side as opposed to the other. If I had to guess, I'd say that both sides were lined up with avowed athiests, but only because I have several atheist friends who relentlessly ask the sort of questions that drive this debate.

Originally posted by detroitslim
If I had to guess, I'd say that both sides were lined up with avowed athiests, but only because I have several atheist friends who relentlessly ask the sort of questions that drive this debate.

And if I had to guess who you were talking about, it would be the really cynical types. Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm no psychologist (though I've had a year of it in high school and 2 college semesters of it before I changed majors ), but it's a behavior pattern I see a lot: atheists/cynics that seem to enjoy heavy sarcasm and belittling others' opinions/beliefs. Not all atheists, mind you. And I say they seem to enjoy it because they engage in both all the time, as often as they get the chance to "call someone out" or whatever you want to call it. Internet boards across the web are rife with it, especially adolescents and particularly "gamers" it seems like. And if I could go a step further I'd say this comes as a result of (a) having unresolved issues/insecurities with their own beliefs or opinions, and/or (b) having a "big head."

I considered myself an atheist too at one point until I found the term that better fit me (I'd rather have no term assigned to my beliefs). I never saw any logic in thinking that, since the popular conception of god is riddled with contradictions and has no supporting evidence, therefore there must be no intelligence behind the universe's shape whatsoever. But that's just me. I only want to try to figure things out on my own, but while simultaneously trying not to offend anyone. But I will try to provoke people here and there if I think there's any use in it.

[edit on 1-12-2008 by bsbray11]