Students lie, cheat, steal, but say they're good

I just want to point out that those cheating are not always the people who don't know things. I mean, they are smart enough to cheat without being caught for one.

I myself (In England) am in year 13, the year AFTER compulsory education. I cheated in some of my exams sure... For science, I wrote down some elements on a rubber. And once I had used them in the test I simply rubbed the rubber on the test and all evidence was gone.

But hey, I got an A* in that test by well over the 2 marks that cheating could have got me in the end.

In history I wrote the date of an event on my pencil, then I simly put the pencil on the desk with the date facing down until I needed it. I got a C in that test, one mark below a B. Not having that date would still have left me at a C.

I'm pretty sure I cheated in one or two other exams also, but everytime, it made no difference to my overall grade.

Cheating isn't always for those who know nothing, it is also not always a big deal. If anything, if you can cheat just a tiny bit on most of your exams and not get caught, you have something more valuble than most of what you get taught in compulsory education anyweay.



[edit on 1-12-2008 by StevenDye]

It was a collective effort from everyone that made children what they are today.

I have read enough garbage in this thread to determine one thing. There is no longer a fear of reprisal in society, especially among our youth. Fear nothing, question authority, disrespect your parents, demand everything, expect everything, blame everyone but yourself.

I didn't cheat in HS or college because I didn't want to get caught or expelled. I thought about it many times but the consequences far out weighed the rewards. I learned that going to class, reading and taking notes was the answer. My professors responded by taking an interest in those who were interested in their class. This was especially evident in the higher level classes.

Our current educational system is the end result of programs and initiatives that were funded in the early part of the 20th century by the elite of the country to further consolidate their power and influence:







The foundations for this system were put in place generations ago. .

[edit on 1-12-2008 by clay2 baraka]

reply to post by jibeho

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In a perfect world I would agree. But in a world where if I don't get my grades and I can't go to further education in order to get a job that will support a family eventually...the rewards of cheating often far outweigh the risks.

It is not perfect, but it is true. School is extreemly stressful for many people, led me close to suicide three times (combined with other things addmittedly) and probably would now if it wasn't for my girlfriend. I can not possibly hope to retain every single piece of knowledge that I need, and if copying a few dates will jog my memory enough to remember everything else I need to know, so be it.

lol of course they say "they're good" - remember "they're liars"
as soon as i read the title it made sense.
I honestly don't know what the main drive is for downspiral morality.
you can say it's MTV, you can say its the actual education system, you can say its the parents. none of those are wrong, in the end the norms are the norms, and as long as they keep changing so does everyones mindset. If I go to school, and I see that most of my friends cheat; its normal. if We send each other pirated movies, its normal (and cheap*). the lie of all of it is that they go around pretending its normal, when if you very well ask them if it is right or wrong, they know its wrong. (how do you think the survey found out?)

reply to post by StevenDye

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I definitely understand your perspective. I almost flunked out of college twice. I had one hell of a time explaining my "academic probation" to my parents. At the time, I preferred to go out, drink to oblivion and sleep in. I went to class on exam days and occasionally in between.

I had to dig deep to change my ways but I eventually saw the light. I must admit to writing some accounting formulas on the case of my calculator though. I still flunked the class because I never went.

reply to post by jibeho

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Again, I agree. Cheating is not the way, and people need to study more instead. But even so, some will feel the need to cheat, such as myself, on minor things which help you to remember bigger things.

In todays world, there is too much to do, and too much stress to go back. The stress of school and how well you need to do is what leads people to the entertainment items and away from the studying they need to be doing. But now businesses are global, and the job you want can probably be done by someone on the other side of the planet, that stress will never go; and so people will release their stress with entertainment and not study enough, then they will cheat.

Watching people get worked up or upset about cheating on a High School test is simply comical to me.

Ethical Standards? You say that as if High School is a place that fosters useful, accurate, or relevant knowledge or upholds any sort of ethical basis.

High School is, by design, a tool of socialization that simply programs people to fit into whatever sort of society or pattern of life that the government finds most useful.

However, Yeah, cheating on your Med School is test is messed up, as you're playing with people's lives there.

But the majority of American High Schools provide a violent, alienating environment for young minds that does more harm than good.

If my kid doesn't feel like reading useless propaganda in his english class, I will fully support his right to cheat to get through with it so that he can actually get out of that hellish environment and move on to some useful part of life.

But yeah, I agree that lying and stealing are, as general rules, pretty bad.


[edit on 1-12-2008 by RavagedSky]

reply to post by RavagedSky

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Finding reasons why it's ok to cheat is part of the problem. You can't justify this just because high schools have turned into prisons. We need to change our entire education system starting with early childhood education. We need a model that fosters academic achievement creativity. And parents, god forbid you're one, should not be advocating cheating in highschool just because you believe it is of no consequence. Those who lie, cheat and steal to get ahead of the curve will continue to do so well into college.

The problem with cheating is that it does affect lives in the immediate. Kids are cheating on Math tests, how is math propaganda? Do you not want your kid to understand math? How is basic language skills propaganda? How about the understanding of physics and other classes these kids are cheating in? We're raising a generation of instant gratification seekers with no moral center and it is helping no one.

reply to post by synyster.

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We can't blanket why people cheat. It is a problem fostered by policy. How many kids are in your class? How many do you think really know the material? I can't account for your personal experience in school. But it seems to me it isn't so much about boredom as a lack of understanding that is prevailing in schools. I ask kids all the time questions that I knew the answers to when I was their age, and I get blank stares as though I just spoke a foreign language. That scares me. Kids don't know JACK these days and it is that lack of knowledge that pushes kids to cheat, and they learn nothing in the process.


[edit on 1-12-2008 by projectvxn]

Here is what I find, that blaming parents is just another scape goat situation to make us feel better. Sadly in today's society it takes both parents working full time jobs just to "make the bills" how can someone truly "parent" their child(ren) when they have to work so much?

They can't always, and the truth is parents are not the only ones who have influence on their children, the moment children start interacting with society (ie on the playground when they are one, at the grocery store when they are a month old), then society becomes involved.

I agree about a posters input about PTO's, I was involved for many years and finally decided it was just a bunch of crap and stopped being involved. I got tired of all the back stabbing, gossiping and who did what when instead of what I thought PTO should be about, the children. Now I teach art to the children and volunteer in the classroom where I am actually working with the children and not always other parents.

Personally I view it as a partial problem of corporatism, I mean just look at what is taking place now with our banking system and the bailout for example. My kids and I have talked about this, and they question why corporations are allowed to "cheat and steal" and then get tax payers money to go on vacation with.

So, what lesson did they learn from that situation? Cheat, lie and steal, and the government will give you some money.

I already have my complaints about the school system, and forcing kids to sit in classrooms and give "correct answers" instead of teaching them problem solving skills is an obvious impact we are seeing on society as a whole. Our children are not learning how to "think", they are not learning how to solve problems, they are learning to conform.

You can also tell your kids that the tests are irrelevant and of no consequence, so don't worry about failing them, but we all know it isn't that easy in school for a kid to simply bow out gracefully.

Passing tests is pretty easy if you learn some memory techniques, which are also fun and useful in other areas of life. However, if that's not your bag, and you can stay under the radar and silently vote 'no' whilst fulfilling their dumb 'schooling' requirements by writing the answers on the back of your hand, then more power to you.



It needs completely recreating, not just changing. It was broken from the very start.




Lying and stealing aside, cheating in tests isn't necessarily to 'get ahead of the curve'.



I've never used differentiation, integration, advanced trig, calculus or algebra in my day to day life. I can learn to conversationally speak a language in about 8 days without memorising or note taking, as can most anyone, but have forgotten all that German/French/Latin grammar they tried to instill into us in school. Bernoulli's equation is still languishing in my brain, but has never been of any practical use and I've never needed to know that a benzine ring contains 6 carbon atoms.

I can confidently say that much more than 90% of the garbage and lies I was required to learn in both school and university, was either not worth knowing or irrelevant to my current and future life choices.



Like many have said, we learn by example for the most part.

[edit on 1/12/08 by RogerT]

reply to post by RogerT

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You mentioned several times how the things they teach you, like trig or calculus, has had no bearing in your day to day life. Which is fine. But it has some bearing in the aspirations of others. It isn't all about what is useful to just you, it is about what is useful to those who wish to be scientists, engineers, teachers, and so on. Calculus isn't useless knowledge, if it were useless you wouldn't be on the internet trying to convince me it is, because there would be no internet, no cell phones, no satellite communications, cable tv or anything people these days can't live without. Education is the foundation of human progress. It may not be important to you, but it is important to the advancement of the human race.

[edit on 1-12-2008 by projectvxn]

reply to post by projectvxn

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No argument there, but if I wish to specialise in a subject, I do so.

If they had spent my time at school teaching me how to learn rather than wasting my time with irrelevant stuff, I would be able to specialise more effectively. Luckily, I self taught myself how to learn but that only came much later

Now that's the way to advance civilisation - school is designed more to hold us back.

reply to post by RogerT

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Then change the design right? Place critical thinking back in the class room, teach kids how to absorb information and give them examples of what such information can accomplish. Help them in developing the skills needed to specialize in any field they choose, and get parents involved in their development by fostering an environment of education at home. But one must start early, very early.

Amen to that!

The public net especially, also over here in Europe.

When I was in public school it was tearjerkingly easy to waltz through school without any visible effort.. and a couple years ago they lowered the norm to 'give more people a chance'.

If you are even slightly above the norm, school becomes a tedium, numbing, indoctrinating mold, quelling any creativity or independant thinking.

Like the late great George Carlin said: "soon, all you'll need to get into college is a pencil.. you got a pencil? Good! now get your *bleep* in there, it's physics!"