Was the abrahamic god the worst serial killer in human history?

Originally posted by Ridhya
Did he REALLY break the Sabbath? If Im at home relaxing, and I move the channel changer, do I call it work?

Yes,getting stoned to death for 'picking up sticks' does seem a little harsh.

They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56

Other biblical capital offences:


Getting stoned if you touch the holy things:

Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13

Getting stoned if you take accursed things:

Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26

Getting stoned if you curse or blaspheme:

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16

Getting stoned if you're raped and don't scream:

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24

Getting stoned if you're an ox and gore a human:

If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28

Getting stoned if you marry when not a virgin:

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21

Getting stoned if you worship other gods:

If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10

Getting stoned if you disobey your father:

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Getting stoned if you're a wizard or a witch:

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27

Getting stoned if you give Molech your kids:

Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2

Getting stoned if you curse the dictator:

Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10

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[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by karl 12


Israel was a strict Theocracy!
You either did it God's way, or not.
Humans are pretty thick sometimes and needed incentive to actually believe God.
The keeping of the Sabbath was the main way to align yourself with God!

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
A very narrow minded kinda of way to look at divinity.

So where is the mercy, the love, the forgiveness, the patients....the hope??

mercy - "compassion or forbearance shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one's power"

justice - "the quality of being just, impartial, or fair"

my view of divinity is not narrow minded, in fact its the opposite. i include other aspects of god's personality whereas you choose to focus on the parts you like. like mercy.

god is merciful, but he is also just. rebellion is intolerable. justice demands action on god's part whether now or later.

consider david. david did much worse than the man who broke the sabbath. david committed fornication and murder. according to the law, he should have been put to death. yet god showed mercy, why? simple. david was repentant. he realized his error, humbled his heart and put himself in god's hands. there is no indication that david expected mercy from god. but god gave it to him nonetheless because of his heart.

to presume on god's mercy is to miss the point. its a haughty attitude which turns god's mercy into an excuse to "let go"

perhaps even this man had the same attitude as you. perhaps he reasoned, "god wont mind". never-mind the fact that the law said otherwise.

simply put, its a lack of respect for god. yes, god is merciful, but that doesnt mean you can spit in his face.

Adam is NOT ONE MAN. Man kind was not 'created' out of nothing, with no mother, father, sperm, egg....it wasnt supernatural....as you are fantasizing it is Miriam.

says who?

genealogy in luke disagrees. (luke 3:38)

knowledge can be dangerous....you can read the entire Bible and have knowledge, but one will lack wisdom if they dont understand....God does not act in those primal intervening ways.

primal?

is it primal to arrest a criminal? or is it primal enforce laws?

laws are necessary for order and general peace and happiness. a law is worth nothing without enforcement.

you honestly think that if someone who rebels against god knowingly, and god elects to use his right (yes he has the right) to take that persons life away, that that is primal?

So its our choice....we have been warned what will happen if we dont 'listen' to the book and the orders.....and God will not understand....how hard it is to believe in something people cant even see....and God will not understand why so many couldn't accept him due to his forceful ways.

you cant see wind, is it hard for you to believe that wind exists?

germs?

what about your brain? have you ever seen your brain? i mean literally have you ever seen it? but you dont have problems believing its there.

its because these things are evident by the reactions they cause.

if people cant see god, usually its because they dont want to.

The flood was IMPERFECT. It did not get rid of the bad seed. And did God not have hope for these people at all???????????????????????????????????

the earth was ruined. violence was what the world was doing. so no, god did not have hope for them.

second, the bible never claimed that the flood was the end all solution. the promised "seed" was.

noah was still imperfect and so was his offspring. it was only a matter of time before things got bad again.

You can disagree, and tell me where I am wrong, and tell others, GOD HAS WARNED YOU. But you bring no light to this dark place. You bring no hope to troubled souls.

the only ones i dont bring hope to are the ones who have made their minds up to do what they want to do.

imagine there was a volcano and you knew that it was going to blow. so you run around and tell people that they have to leave. now think about this, your telling them to stop their day to day life, and to have faith in what your saying. this would mean leaving thier house, job, their life.

you think that your message is hopeless? only if people ignore you.

most people ignore the bible. either they look for contradictions, or maybe they look for reasons to ignore what it says. but in the end you still have a book that has survived despite impossible odds and concerted efforts to destroy it. its a strong testimony to the idea that the bible is not just an ordinary ¨book¨. and the bible gives many examples of situations that required action.

if you feel that action is not required, then that is your prerogative. its like the volcano, if people ignore the warning, its their choice. but they shouldnt be surprised that they probably wont survive.

Based on the information provided in Your religious and so-called spiritual books, I think Mass Murderer would be a better description or perhaps Serial Mass Murderer.

What is far more bizarre is that despite this fact people still decide the correct response to this is pissing Him off. Knowing what you know a more sensible behavior would be to mind one's own business and stop involving yourselves in his affairs.

Seriously, why shoud a Cosmic being have to put up with indignant lumps of clay?

[edit on 3-3-2009 by huckfinn]

reply to post by karl 12


"God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head 2 Kg.2:23-24 "

This is little gem went a long way in convincing me to give up on the Christian faith.
I have to say I'm impressed with the way the defenders of the Old Testmement god have been sticking to their guns no matter what.

Here is a quote from miriam 0566

we see this every day no matter what country you are in. there is a law set by the government in power and the consequences are made known. when people break the law, we dont blame the government for their incarceration, we blame the criminal right?

And then she refers to the horror about the she bear and the children as an example of this kind of logic.

In this country, and in most of the world, we generally feel that the punishment should "fit the crime," and that some crimes are worse than others and thus warrant varying degrees of punishment.
The God of the OT, however, does not operate on these principals. He forgives some, and hands others the most severe punishments imaginable. He allows some people to learn from their mistake and change the error of their ways, others he snuffs out without giving them a chance.
Miriam claims we have to look at each example cited in the original post in context. I've looked at the story of children and the she-bear, and there really isn't very much context to go on. What you see is what you get, some children make fun of an old man, God sends a bear to rip their bodies limb from limb. This is justice? This is love?
Was the she-bear really necescary? Couldn't God have maybe come up with something a little less severe? Maybe give the kids a chance to grow up, gain a little maturity, learn to be a little less disrespectful?
But, whats the point arguing about it? God's ways are mysterious. Whenever a book tells us he does something, we have to believe and accept it, even if it contradicts common moral principals, even it his behavior seems to be as repugnant at face value as that of the greatest mass murderers and serial killers. The book tells us it happened, so it happened. The book tells us God is good, so God is good.
There is no way to argue with a person who has this kind of reasoning. No matter what the God of the Old Testament does, his actions are justified simply because he is God. And of course, everything reported in the Old Testament literally happened, including the bear devouring the children, simply because it is in the bible and everything in the bible must be true (even the contradictions).

With your types of logic what's to stop you from emptying the oceans of sharks, the jungles of lions and the skies of eagles? They are nothing but a species of serial killers from birth to death.

Why should the Lion negotiate with the Gazelle? What sense does it make that the Shark should pay head to the philosophy of the Seal?

The real problem is not God, it is Man; unlike the rest of the Universe, he has lost all sense of his Proper Place. God reminds you of this and puts you there, as he knows what it looks like when something has decided to attempt to replace Him.

The only thing possibly wrong with these religions is that they obscure the demarcation line of Man's dominion and God's dominion.

Threads such as this one illustrate how first men questioned God and wrote their religious Books; now they question and challenge one another and their world irreversably descends into the Abyss. Just as it already has.

Miriam,

Divine mercy and justice are divine because the root is love. When we see through the eyes of a divine way, we see ourselves for who we are, and we know then we have things to work on. It is a cycle and would make no sense for any lights/energies of Thee to be lost or tortured...even if our human instincts say this life should be wrought with a eye for an eye. The power of it all....is that love cant be conquered. The love between Thee and everything that is of Thee can not be denied, when in the presence of the spirit. While in the flesh, yes we can attempt to do so....we can attempt to deny, spit in the face or fact of God, we can attempt many things....but the road is never ending....we are re shown, retaught, recycled....it is a sifting process.

I can see the wind...as it makes the trees, grass and flowers move when it blows....I can feel the wind on my skin...I know it is there. I know germs are real, they make me sick. To warn someone to run for their lives, a volcano is going to explode....is logic, we can see the volcano, we know by history that volcanoes explode, we know they can kill, we have a logical reason to tell others to save themselves.

You say you see Gods others personalities and I only choose to see what I like. There is only one root of God, it is love. I followed the wrathful demanding God for many years Miriam. I prayed endlessly. Due to personal sorrows as I was young, I reached out to Thee every night, crying for a sign. I had lost a brother while I was very young...and I couldn't understand, why God just wouldn't show him to me, if God was real, all powerful, I needed to know, I wanted to see my brother...one last time. After this, I searched for God in the OT. I repented and amended my wrongs. I still, was without result, of 'seeing God'. My faith never failed, I kept searching, I kept praying, I kept reaching for understanding....I had my first glimpse of understanding when I entered the conscious actions of the man who they call Jesus, and become one with that hardship to not live for the life of flesh. I saw nothing but love. For the first time, I felt a glimpse of light shine on me.

Since my experience involved my connection to the love, of Jesus, for us...I continued my path through the Bible, as Jesus as my sacrifice. The light left from me, and no more understanding came to me. I still accepted it, for who am I to say that God must reach out to me. But I was told to seek...I was told, lift a rock and he is there...I was told to knock and the door shall be opened...I decided to look outside of the Bible, and trust, God made me as a instrument so I can look within. I put my faith back in the thought...we will be shown, if we seek Thee. So I had to ask myself....am I seeking Thee in the in the wrong way?

To go through all the dreams and experiences the spirit then led me on, would take a book. It is what changed my life. It is why I am here today speaking amongst others about the nature of Thee.

The peak of my trials was my mother. When she looked me in the eyes, while telling me she was standing with the angels...and smiled at me in amazement....and said 'we relearn everything'.......was my final card thrown on the table for me to put the wrathful forceful god.

God is understanding of this world, Thee made it.

I do not have a 'oh well attitude' about what people do...it is very important for the soul to reach out to seek a divine nature. It is very important to be very aware of your actions. Who wants to live a live of flesh again? I mean really....

I believe in fasting, I believe in thanks, I believe the more you live your life as a light to others, the more your vibrations will rise, the closer your soul comes to a cleansing....the more acceptable your soul will be ready to absorb with its original source of life.

I dont believe that man every lived the ages the OT says. Its logic instead of believing this world was not based on science and logic. This material world was never a supernatural place where man lived hundreds of years old. The flood was brought to wash out the 'mighty men'....yet the 'mighty men' were still here after the flood...then we see God regret the flood. I cant believe we teach this stuff to our children.

The next time I felt the rush of heavens around me was when I kneeled and claimed, I accept no blood for you....I dont believe you demand a blood shed for me. I cant put into words of what happened. It was very other worldly....the love was almost unbearable and will make one not be able to raise their head....for they are immediately humbled at the love, nothing more. The power is in the love, for the life, that all Thee dwells in. Then there is no will for the self, the ego, for ones will becomes, love to all that is Thee.

Some spank their children because they believe that is how the justice is served for the wrong they did. Some parents use repetitive structure and actions, to teach the child over time, there is a better ways then others. Divine justice is a repetitive function....it will harden the heart, it will sift its light out of the the darkness. If anyone or anything has the power to not allow one to deny Thee...it is Thee....Thee will show you, again and again, by never stopping to love you....because you are a part of Thee.

As much as we buck that we are not a part of Thee....we can not deny it while in the spirit, for it would be denying our very existence.

We should strive to do right, we should overcome the pride of our selves, the greed of materials, ect....For this is a part of the path. We should question things, we should have confidence that we are worthy and we should have faith that we do the right thing, because its a better way....not because god says so. This is the will for the one and the way is, no lights shall be lost.

You cant find a book to lay the answers out for you, it would defeat the whole purpose of knowing yourself, truthfully....to learn about the divine nature within you.

So when I crossed paths, with my beliefs....I knew the road was not going to be easy. I knew, I would stand alone in this flesh many times. I had to deal with the 'crowds' not accepting my faith. I had to be humbled that I was not seeking out of gratification from others, or my own salvation even. I was seeking, to know myself...believed I am a part of Thee. The answers all soon followed. To look at oneself and see oneself through the eyes of the Holy....is not a easy ting to do. One has to face many wrongs about themselves and shed many flesh rooted attributes. Also one must look at the world, and the cause and effects of others who are lost, prideful, greedy...ect...and forgive them. It is not a easy way and its not based on 'what I choose to like' about Thee. Its hard to see that it lays in our hands, its hard to accept God wont come save the day. Its hard to accept this world is meant to be this way. So no, its not what I 'like' about God and what I dont like. I now live more for my other selves more then I ever had, for they are just as much a part of Thee as I, no more and no less.

I cant deny what I have been shown.
Peace to you and yours
LV

Originally posted by Ridhya
You could argue, God made it a felony to work on this arbitrary day which he chose to commemorate the day he fell lethargic from all his creating

come on now, reason on this. god would not feel lethargic.

he set the day aside as holy. reserved for a specific purpose.

for isreal is was time set aside to contemplate spiritual things. time set aside to ponder something bigger than themselves

Did he REALLY break the Sabbath? If Im at home relaxing, and I move the channel changer, do I call it work?
Maybe he enjoyed moving sticks and did it for fun?

exodus 31:[2] Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. [3] Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

so your saying that a man in the wilderness is gathering sticks for fun? no, he was doing it for fire. which he was told not to.

also whats interesting is the verses immediately preceding the mention of the man.

[29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
[30] But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
[31] Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

so your assuming that this man was put to death unjustly, but god was consulted in this particular case. the man was put to death.

so which category do you think he was in? sinneth through ignorance? or presumptuously?

he despised the law. its the same sin no matter how seemingly small the display.

I also repeat

He couldnt even kill the man peacefully!

Please address this next time!!

kill the man peacefully?

first off, when the man dies, he's dead. no suffering in hell, no elation in heaven. dust to dust. (eccl 9:5,10), i understand what you are saying, but in the end it doesnt matter how he does.

second what about the people doing the killing? is not possible god considered that the executioners may have to deal with it emotionally?

if you have 10 people throwing stones, who through the killing stone? is it possible to know?

stoning is the equivalent of the modern day random 2 button execution

he did, they were the ones who built the ark, remember?

So ONLY Noah and co. were good? In the entire world? They were without sin?

the only good people in the world, yes. without sin, no.

plus, only they had faith. they trusted enough in god that they built the ark and expected to be saved by god

They could have joined? Meaning that they were good enough to join?! So now you admit, good people died, because God didnt bother to tell them directly.

no, im saying that people were fixated on their current way of life, that they ignored noah and they ignored god's intervention.

remember too that at that time there were angels in materialized form. they would have also been able to verify god's pronouncement to noah. so it wasnt just a case of crazy old noah building an ark.

the earth was ruined, but those living in that world liked it just the way it was. hence why would they take action?

It was also plenty of time for God to save the good people himself, or tell them directly (not make them rely on an old man's testimony).

If your arguments were an ark they woulda sunk long ago.

see above.

reply to post by miriam0566


Good work Miriam.

Although if I were you I'd kick the dust of this thread off of your feet.

You'll never convince them.

reply to post by miriam0566

No matter how many times you quote Scripture wont make a difference. I already know it. I UNDERSTAND your argument, but it holds no water. Im not arguing that there was a law for the Sabbath, Im arguing that he didnt break it in my opinion. He needs sticks to build a fire to survive. If he doesnt, he'll die. I guess damned if ya do, damned if ya dont (literally).

I take it you have never been hit with a rock before. I cant even fathom being killed by being pelted... it must have been one of the most horrific ways to die.
If it doesnt matter how he dies if its all the same in the end, does that mean you dont care about torture?
And the emotional state of the executioners?? are you serious?!
They saw him 'breaking' a commandment so they brought him before to seek judgement. If they thought he was breaking the law, they obviously knew what he was to receive. They stoned him willingly. If any being imparted unto me that I had to torture someone else, I would say no. I dont care if it is God, I dont work for the unjust.

I for one dont believe this is the same God. But I dont want to get into my beliefs here.
IF the God of the New testament were to have to kill someone, Im sure he would instantly sever the brain stem or something... never know what hit em.

some say this god is a 'just' god

just what?

just a dickhead murderer and should be punished

maybe a warning shot through his head!

reply to post by cosmicpixie


Well said, cosmicpixie. I see it that way also, the God(s) of Biblical lore are alien in nature, and not Deities, as they pretended to be. I believe the Iggi were left here the last time Nibiru was here, and that they are the ones who went underground, and through time infiltrated the secret societies and governments of the world. I feel that we of humanity may have to fight them one day, and there could be a time when reinforcements may come to support them who were left. All things considered, anything could happen in the future, but one thing is clear...something will happen, a great change, and there is not thing one we can stop it.

Originally posted by outsider13
In this country, and in most of the world, we generally feel that the punishment should "fit the crime," and that some crimes are worse than others and thus warrant varying degrees of punishment.
The God of the OT, however, does not operate on these principals. He forgives some, and hands others the most severe punishments imaginable. He allows some people to learn from their mistake and change the error of their ways, others he snuffs out without giving them a chance.

first off, id like to thank you for actually thinking about what i said. despite the way i present my arguments, im not expecting to convince anyone of my views. but it is nice to at least be talking to someone and having an actual interchange of ideas as opposed to "posting to the wall."

okay, so your statement. totally true.

in most cases, the punishment is equal to the level of the crime. so a pick pocket is not going to be punished to the same degree as a murderer. your insightful, because you noticed that the bible doesnt appear to have that same standard.

however it does.

duet 24:[16b] ....every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

rom 6:[23a] For the wages of sin is death

so basically the punishment of law can be broken down to one statement.

if you sin, you will die.

so logically the question is, what is sin? alot of people's view on this particular subject tends to get fogged up by the church. they tend to use the babylonian belief that different sins have different "weights". so killing is worse than stealing and stealing is worse than lying etc etc etc.

jesus ironically makes a very interesting point about the law and what one needs to do to follow it. he was asked which was the greatest commandments of the law.

matt 22:[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

jesus was actually quoting from moses.

duet 6: [5] And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
[6] And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

how do you break this simple commandment. simple really, dont love god.

sin is doing something that is not loving to either god, or your neighbor or yourself. so while sin does exhibit itself in different ways, its basically the same sin. not loving.

hence, not loving = death.

one sin, one punishment.

in other words god's standard is that everyone love everyone.

still think god's cruel?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the next logical question is, does god really need to enforce this law?

to show my opinion about this, im actually going to put down the bible and talk in hypotheticals.

lets say that hypothetically you as a human want to create utopia. now when i say utopia, what i mean is that everyone is at the very least content with their lives. i dont mean that a world without some problems or kinks that need to be ironed out, but i mean a world were you can take care of yourself and have a measure of peace. a world where a fair days work earns you a fair days wage that you can actually live on. where you dont have to fear walking down the street at night, even if it is the "bad" part of town. not that ambitious, but definitely impossible in this world.

obviously, this utopia needs rules. it cant exist without rules, otherwise naturally, sooner or later, someone is going to do something that will conflict with another person's happiness.

the application of rules immediately creates a list of "desires" or happinesses that are unacceptable. for example - if a law prohibits stealing, immediately the instant gratification one gets from "taking" whatever they want becomes prohibited. or perhaps there is a rule about drugs that is instated specifically for the safety of the population, this would immediately prohibit the use of drugs for fun. if a person derives happiness in life from these things, then naturally they would not be happy in this utopia.

here in lies a problem. restrict a persons life with laws, and naturally some will not be happy. dont restrict with laws and certain consequences may make some unhappy.

ill give you an example. lets say that in this utopia, we want to get rid of deaths caused by drunk driving. the first logical step would be to ban driving while under the influence (much like we have today.) but being as people who are drunk dont usually have control over themselves, sometimes they drive anyway. or sometimes they drive because they dont realize just how drunk they are. and its hard to determine how drunk a person is because being drunk is different for each person. so naturally, while the deaths lessen, they are still there. not acceptable for our utopia, we want to eliminate the deaths. the next step would be to ban inebriation. you can drink, but you cannot get drunk.

but, you would have the same problem as before. our utopia is ambitious, but its still made of people who make mistakes and some who enjoy getting drunk. so every once in awhile someone gets drunk, and even more rarely they get into a car and drive and kill someone. its rare now, lets say one death every year is caused by drunk driving. thats awesome, but not if you are the person who dies, or if you are the person who is close to the person who dies. for you, this is anything but a utopia.

so the next step, ban alcohol. whoa, back up a minute. ban alcohol? lots of people will disagree.

my point is not whether we should ban alcohol. its that no matter what the rule for no matter what purpose whether for the better of mankind or not, someone is going to disagree.

what happens when someone disagrees?
(cont' below)





[edit on 4-3-2009 by miriam0566]

forgive me please for using a comic book to illustrate this problem, but one comes to mind that fits the question perfectly. a friend from where i used to work is a comic freak and ever once in awhile he forces me to read one. quite a few were really good like watchmen was one i really liked.

but the one id like to reference is "kingdom come"

anyway its in the future and superman goes into retirement because alot of the superheroes have started to kill their enemies. it begins to get our of control and the superheroes end up fighting all the time and killing civilians.

so superman comes out of retirement and tries to provide guidance for these heroes. but there is a problem, not everyone agrees.

but superman wont kill, he refuses to. so he cant get rid of them, but he cant let them simply torment society. his solution was to build a prison. anyway by the end of the book the prison breaks down. there is a huge fight and in the end the humans nuke the prison site killing most of the superheroes. but the comic in the end doesnt answer the question. what do you do when someone refuses to conform?

conformity seems to be a 4 letter world today. fight the establishment even if you dont know what you are fighting for. but the fact is, if you want a utopia, there are certain aspects of your life that will require conformity. im not talking about things like clothing or what type of music you listen to, that stuff for the most part is inconsequential. but if you need to conform to a law that says dont steal, then conformity becomes a good thing.

but still, what do you do with someone who refuses to follow the rules? do you throw them in prison? do you banish them?

going back to the bible. god wants a utopia, but one that even exceeds the lesser utopia i mentioned before.

rev 21:[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
[5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

so not only is everyone happy, but there is no pain or even death.

what is god suppose to do with people that dont contribute to that? does god really owe life to someone who wants to work against that noble purpose?

some people like to say that the god of the OT is a different one than the one from the NT.

rev 20:[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

look at that, its the same fate that was presented in the OT. same consequences, same choice.

deut 30:[19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

god is basically saying love, or die (non existance, not fiery torment). and this according to the reasoning of the thread makes him cruel?

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
You say you see Gods others personalities and I only choose to see what I like. There is only one root of God, it is love.

i counted 4 principle attributes of god.

love.
wisdom.
justice.
power.

its hard to accept God wont come save the day. Its hard to accept this world is meant to be this way.

im sorry, i can never believe that. ever. its a contradiction to the highest order in my mind.

that a god of absolute love would create a world of pain and suffering, watch his creation hurt each other to the point of even possibly destroying itself, and then do nothing.

your testimony shows that you understand suffering, but you dont understand injustice. you've never felt its sting. injustice has literally taken my life away and soon, very soon, everything i am and ever could be will blow away like the wind and you and everyone else on this earth will forget about me. and your going to tell me that god will do nothing... because he is love?

you said to me earlier "you bring no light to this dark place. You bring no hope to troubled souls." well im sorry but i think it applies more to you.

Originally posted by Ridhya
No matter how many times you quote Scripture wont make a difference. I already know it. I UNDERSTAND your argument, but it holds no water. Im not arguing that there was a law for the Sabbath, Im arguing that he didnt break it in my opinion. He needs sticks to build a fire to survive. If he doesnt, he'll die. I guess damned if ya do, damned if ya dont (literally).

im sure his life wouldnt be threatened if he didnt have fire for one measly day.

Originally posted by ancient arrow
some say this god is a 'just' god

just what?

just a dickhead murderer and should be punished

maybe a warning shot through his head!

interesting. you condemn god for killing people. your answer, to kill god....

am i to understand that you are taking the high moral ground?

reply to post by miriam0566



Your qoute---""im sorry, i can never believe that. ever. its a contradiction to the highest order in my mind.

that a god of absolute love would create a world of pain and suffering, watch his creation hurt each other to the point of even possibly destroying itself, and then do nothing.

your testimony shows that you understand suffering, but you dont understand injustice. you've never felt its sting. injustice has literally taken my life away and soon, very soon, everything i am and ever could be will blow away like the wind and you and everyone else on this earth will forget about me. and your going to tell me that god will do nothing... because he is love?

you said to me earlier "you bring no light to this dark place. You bring no hope to troubled souls." well im sorry but i think it applies more to you.""----
*************************************************************
My response------And you have ever right to say that back to me. But I have been shown, it is misleading to the masses to teach them that God is wrathful, prideful, jealous, and needs blood for our sins. These kind of attributes placed on Thee...causes others not to know Thee or understand Thee...if you dont understand, Thee can not work through you for the will of the One. Sometimes, love to the darkest soul, is the only thing strong enough to bring them out of their darkness. Sometimes, this has to be repetitive, to brake down the walls of the flesh in that soul.
Of course it is the highest order in your mind...you rely on a book for absolute truth without discerning the divine from the ruler of this world. You are told to look for this anti Christ, and told to look for a return of Christ with a sword ect....of course you will say you will never believe this.

It was wrong of me to say you dont bring light to this world. But what peacekeepers come here for is...to bring hope and unconditional love to lost souls. The most blessed ones are the ones who can find the light in the darkest of souls.

You say you cant see a God allowing all of this, creating this world with suffering ect....so you NEED the idea, for comfort, that God will come interneve again, like in the OT. When one see's the infinate one that all emenates from as a function....similar to the forces of natures....its not a 'choice' of Thee to create what emenates from Thee...its a natural process. This world is needed, it is a must, this is much harder to accept that we are going through this world for our own good, for growth for our souls to evolve with the spirit. For what ever reason Miriam, we are to experience sufferings here, we are to learn how to gain strength from the catastrophies....it does not have to be a 'punishment' becasue Eve and Adam did wrong....that is mans explanation of Adam (mankind) gaining Eve (life) and how the mankind evolved to gainint 'knowledge'. Man was able to then reason, create, know regrets, know pride, experience a seperate self amoungst all of its other selves, being given the illusion we are individuals, which is a test of pride or humbleness of being one...loving thy neightbor as ourself, my body is your body...ect.

You wont be forgotten, none of us will. We are all ONE Miriam. The 'function' is anatural process of spirit returning to spirit and matter returning to matter....recycling helps reteach and helps the vine knows its seed through repetitivness. This is why, even though many are able to move foreard from matter, they willing return to matter, to help its other selves, sense all is a part of Thee. The vibrations of souls will always be different, for the lower vibrations bring the catalyst to the higher vibrations and the higher vibrations bring the love and light to the lower. Its a yin and yang that must be....material world are made for this very reason. A realm was needed that would be based on cause and effect.

What if life exists on thousands of other planets?? Do you think any of them have Utopia? Of course not, the law of cause and effect would exists for them too, and its not because they also had a Adam and Eve who did wrong that made their world fall from a garden.

I too , once needed the idea that the world would be saved, by the force of God....but Thee kept preparing me for something different. Thee works through us Miriam. We are the warriors for the light. The higher vibrations of the ones who show others peace, hope and love.

God doesn't do nothing....Ive said this before....when we leave the body of flesh, and see our life through the eyes of the divine (through the divine consciousness) the will of what we need to amend for is obvious...and the function of cycling takes care of the justice.

Thee does not need to use things such as ideas of hell, or anti Christ or torture (fears) because this distorts the reasons people come to Thee and it also steers many away to even thinking about considering seeking God any further because their gut KNOWS those actions CANT be of a Holy Nature.

Just because we see justice as we do, in our world and flesh, does not mean that Justice of the spirit works the same way.

I know you bring light to others....but on the note as the world as a whole unit, the ideas of waiting of God....will get us know where. World of matter are not ever meant to be utopias.

If Thee wanted us to focus more on understanding and believe supernatural things, Thee emanations would be in a realm that could have supernatural things....but instead we have logic, science, reason, we see the natures of Earth have a order. So we are to learn from all the basics that make up this world....which is order and cycling. Emanations is one thing flowing into another..its a function, not a choice...and not creation out of nothing or creation by choice. Thee is what Thee is, and Mother Nature is what she is, and the Universe and the laws of cause and effect are what they are...none of its a mistake or caused by something or someone that 'went wrong'.

Light has to shine through the darkness, in order to be known, in a world of cause and effect. A world where souls are to gain knowledge and understanding must experience both sides, dark and light, in order to see the difference, see the reasons, see the morals, see the rulers, and see the light bringers.

Again, I said some things I never should of said...that is my own darkness that i need to work on. Apologies again....I wish you all the best.

You mentioned to someone that some are like talking to a wall. Dont ya know, many of us all feel that way....I surely know how that feels. But we all still do it anyway.....out of love.

LV

My best to all,
LV

[edit on 4-3-2009 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Injustice is necessary because you can't have justice without injustice.

God is the avenger, he WILL avenge all the injustice we suffer, just because he isn't doing it while we're on this world doesn't mean anything.

Injustice brings glory to God just like justice does.

Why? Because when God finally avenges all the injustice in this world everyone will know he truly is our God.

Imagine a Creator of this immense power, really imagine it, how could you possibly know what his complete plan is?

Our pathetic little minds can't even begin to conceive the reasons God does things for.

Originally posted by B.A.C.
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

Injustice is necessary because you can't have justice without injustice.

God is the avenger, he WILL avenge all the injustice we suffer, just because he isn't doing it while we're on this world doesn't mean anything.

Injustice brings glory to God just like justice does.

Why? Because when God finally avenges all the injustice in this world everyone will know he truly is our God.

Imagine a Creator of this immense power, really imagine it, how could you possibly know what his complete plan is?

Our pathetic little minds can't even begin to conceive the reasons God does things for.

You have to consider reincarnation, recycling, to understand this point of view. How would you like it that you have you keep coming back, experiencing seperation from your divine source, all because you needed more growth, more knowledge, more understanding, more hardening of the heart, to reep what youve sowed in former lives. When the soul finally learns, everything is apart of Thee, the divine nature becomes, your nature. Everything we see here, in material, goes back to its source somehow...this is the template of Thee....it will outlast all books, it was the first signs to the anceints, that there was a force of life, in all things. Its only mere understanding why they worshipped the sun, the stars, the earth, the female or male genders....it wasnt satan misleading them....it is the voice of the holy spirit that runs through all things that tells our deepest nature these things are all a part of Thee. Thee is a function, that all emenates from. Everything is created, emenated, out of something. Everything Thee has left us on the natural template, has a order and a cycle. The eternal love is what will bring back every soul.

Do you really think you arent worthy to seek Thee and ask Thee to show you things? This is a lie, the fear is placed in others to not dare try such things....for satan will enter your mind. You are also told, see all that talk against what the book says....they are false prophets. Have you ever thought that mabey a time will come with greater wisdom...mabey this will happen through a change in the vibrations of the Earth that will truly be like the Holy Spirit pouring onto man.

People believe in the stories of visions from the bible....well I have witnessed a vision through my mother....should I ignore it? Her and I were asking for Thee to use us, to work through us. I believe that all of Thee emanations from Thee are able to connect to the source of our divine being. I dont think we were needing to experience a world of separation if there wasn't a way for us to 'find' Thee and understand what makes Thee divine...and understand, through this process, all becomes one again.

You say so matter of factually that God is vengeful but then say....there is no way we can fathom God. You can not prove to me Thee is vengeful without the Bible quotes.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo

Originally posted by B.A.C.
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

Injustice is necessary because you can't have justice without injustice.

God is the avenger, he WILL avenge all the injustice we suffer, just because he isn't doing it while we're on this world doesn't mean anything.

Injustice brings glory to God just like justice does.

Why? Because when God finally avenges all the injustice in this world everyone will know he truly is our God.

Imagine a Creator of this immense power, really imagine it, how could you possibly know what his complete plan is?

Our pathetic little minds can't even begin to conceive the reasons God does things for.

You have to consider reincarnation, recycling, to understand this point of view. How would you like it that you have you keep coming back, experiencing seperation from your divine source, all because you needed more growth, more knowledge, more understanding, more hardening of the heart, to reep what youve sowed in former lives. When the soul finally learns, everything is apart of Thee, the divine nature becomes, your nature. Everything we see here, in material, goes back to its source somehow...this is the template of Thee....it will outlast all books, it was the first signs to the anceints, that there was a force of life, in all things. Its only mere understanding why they worshipped the sun, the stars, the earth, the female or male genders....it wasnt satan misleading them....it is the voice of the holy spirit that runs through all things that tells our deepest nature these things are all a part of Thee. Thee is a function, that all emenates from. Everything is created, emenated, out of something. Everything Thee has left us on the natural template, has a order and a cycle. The eternal love is what will bring back every soul.

Do you really think you arent worthy to seek Thee and ask Thee to show you things? This is a lie, the fear is placed in others to not dare try such things....for satan will enter your mind. You are also told, see all that talk against what the book says....they are false prophets. Have you ever thought that mabey a time will come with greater wisdom...mabey this will happen through a change in the vibrations of the Earth that will truly be like the Holy Spirit pouring onto man.

People believe in the stories of visions from the bible....well I have witnessed a vision through my mother....should I ignore it? Her and I were asking for Thee to use us, to work through us. I believe that all of Thee emanations from Thee are able to connect to the source of our divine being. I dont think we were needing to experience a world of separation if there wasn't a way for us to 'find' Thee and understand what makes Thee divine...and understand, through this process, all becomes one again.

You say so matter of factually that God is vengeful but then say....there is no way we can fathom God. You can not prove to me Thee is vengeful without the Bible quotes.

I believe in scripture, yes.

No i can't prove it with or without quoting scripture.

Same as no one can prove their views to me. It's a personal thing.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
But I have been shown, it is misleading to the masses to teach them that God is wrathful, prideful, jealous, and needs blood for our sins. These kind of attributes placed on Thee...causes others not to know Thee or understand Thee...if you dont understand, Thee can not work through you for the will of the One.

who says that god doesnt work through me in my life.

you are so quick to dismiss the bible and to label the god of the bible as "wrathful, prideful, jealous, and needs blood for our sins." but you dont actually stop to think what you are saying implies.

is god jealous? yes he is. he describes the nation of Israel as one describing a wife. he even uses gomer who was habbakuk's unfaithful wife as an example of how he would take israel back despite their infidelity. you say that jealousy is this primal emotion, you suggest that "thee" could not possibly have this emotion.

let me ask you this. if a wife cheats on her husband and her husband finds out, is the husband immediately expected to forgive her and take her back despite how he feels? would you go up to him and say to him that the pain he was feeling was somehow morally invalid? how would you feel if you were in that situation?

your so quick to say that jealousy is this negative thing, and it can be when used incorrectly. but it does serve a function. its an integral part of ones relationship with another. god is basically saying that if you want to be close to him, do it proper.

is god wrathful? yes he can be, but its connected with his justice. if someone threatens someone you love, how does this make you feel? what if someone is continually hurting someone you love, would you sit back an watch?

wrath, when used correctly is the emotion from which will motive you to issue justice speedily. and sometimes that justice is not just discipline.

is god prideful? the question would be why not? does god need to be humble? would his humility make any difference?

it is interesting to note too that god doesnt always push his position as supreme ruler. when david needed help with an enemy, the account tells us that god listened to a plan that an angel had. he didnt need to, but he chose too.

israel was to receive a king by the messiah, but they wanted kings before that too. god told them the consequences of this request, but they still insisted, so god anointed saul, he didnt need to, but he did.

does he need blood for our sins? yes, why? because that was the rule from the beginning. eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. when adam sinned, god was still bound by his own standard of justice, he couldnt simply ignore his standard because it inconvenienced him.

what your implying by saying that god doesnt have or need these things is that god is a robot. he simply loves and thats it. he watches the woman get raped but does nothing because he loves the rapist just as much as he loves the victim right?

oh and god doesnt have any standards right? because we all will eventually learn.

there are 2 problems i have with what you are saying

1- a god of love cannot simply sit there and do nothing and still claim he is love. you watch your child fry his hand on the stove and then try to claim that you didnt stop him because you loved him.

2- people dont eventually learn. if reincarnation is true and we are all just cycling through lives slowly learning, then why is the world getting worse?

You say you cant see a God allowing all of this, creating this world with suffering ect....so you NEED the idea, for comfort, that God will come interneve again, like in the OT.

its interesting that you should bring this up.

yes i need this idea. most people do, its part of the way humans think. why would a god put that form of thinking in our heads and then not satisfy it?

the function of cycling takes care of the justice.

how?

Thee does not need to use things such as ideas of hell, or anti Christ or torture (fears) because this distorts the reasons people come to Thee and it also steers many away to even thinking about considering seeking God any further because their gut KNOWS those actions CANT be of a Holy Nature.

as ive said many times before, eternal torture in hellfire is not supported biblically

World of matter are not ever meant to be utopias.

then why would god create us with that ideal? why would humans have such a hard time accepting death, or even understanding what happens to us when we die? your starting to ignore simple human nature