Was the abrahamic god the worst serial killer in human history?

Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by karl 12

 

Its shocking when you see it laid out like that,and for that reason i think a lot of Christians will stay away from this thread.Which is a shame.

It is a shame because I'd genuinely like to know how people compensate for (and possibly justify) the actions of the abrahamic god whilst I cannot.

Also theres the question of should the book be introduced to children of a young age due to all the graphic depictions of mass genocide,rape,incest and murder within it's pages?


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Well I don't think the fallen ones are better, or good. The lower dimensionals have a very negative energy aura (jaki) that is alarming. I can feel it on some of the threads that talk about demons and the like. Everything, including them, would benefit from a change of love and a geniune concern from everyone for the wellbeing of everyone and everything.

Am I the only Christian coming to Jehovah God's defense (although he really doesn't need it) on this topic?

It just goes to show the lack of understanding of the reasons for these ancient God approved wars, and acts of Divine justice like in the case of the deluge and Sodom and Gomorrah.

This is actually a great subject, but not one easy to grasp. This is also a subject that sheds some light on why Jehovah will soon carry out another war where once again, many lives will be lost (hence my ATS name).

I have an article that explains this topic better than I can, and I would like to post it, but it's in Spanish. I don't want to go thru the trouble of translating, so as soon as I find it in English, I will post it. In the mean time I'll share this scripture:

"I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living." - Ezekiel 33:11

There was never a God approved war. That its written in Scripture just reflects the political interests, ancient mindsets, and misrepresentation of God, as all leading religions do.

reply to post by holywar


There is nothing holy in war.

This is the problem with the OT, the conflicts of God demanding man to not kill bet yet also tells them to kill...do you not see red flags here that something is not right? Instead of shrugging it and assuming it must be so...ask yourself...is this the way of Thee most high?

If you take the bible at face value, then you will defend this wrathful and prideful god (the prince of this earth, the master of this vineyard, the entity perpetuated by mans wrongs). Energy is in everything, flows from everything and flows into everything. We choose what energy we take in as well as put forth...is it negative or positive...can you fight negative with negative? Can you fight evil with evil or must you love thy enemies....??

In order for man to make war, man must lay down his righteous garment. The only war in the name of God that is worthy is a war fought with love. Constant actions of loving thy neighbor, constant actions of doing for others 2 fold if they do for you 1 fold.
When do you stop doing what Jesus taught about loving thy enemies and decide to go to war>

Best intentions,
LV

reply to post by LeoVirgo



LV -

I know what you are saying, it's how many people think, but as I stated, this is a profound subject, not easy to grasp. The holy war I am referring to is absolutely necessary, but I will take no part in it. I will NOT fight, I would never bear an arm, much less use one to harm my neighbor, in fact if I had to, I would give my life for you. When this war takes place, there will be no more conspiracies, and EVERYBODY will finally get it. Hopefully the article that I'll post will help a little.

BTW this war I am referring to even has a God given name:Armageddon

reply to post by cosmicpixie


Wow Cosmicpixie that was a very interesting post. I'll bet I know what religious group you studied with in the past, because I recognize myself in that statement. Anyway, loved the info!

Originally posted by holywar
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

LV -

I know what you are saying, it's how many people think, but as I stated, this is a profound subject, not easy to grasp. The holy war I am referring to is absolutely necessary, but I will take no part in it. I will NOT fight, I would never bear an arm, much less use one to harm my neighbor, in fact if I had to, I would give my life for you. When this war takes place, there will be no more conspiracies, and EVERYBODY will finally get it. Hopefully the article that I'll post will help a little.

BTW this war I am referring to even has a God given name:Armageddon

I will just watch while others christians maim and kill innocent people for wanting to experience life. Lovely but i will stay good and fearful of God so i can go to heaven. Im sure we would all feel like Jesus and say God why have you forsaken me.

Anyhow i to like some of Jesus work and really believe he should be taken more seriously in his teachings.

[edit on 1-12-2008 by meadowfairy]

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
This topic is very important for our species as a whole unit.

Christ taught us how to weigh a vine from a seed...through seeking the vines nature, you will know the nature of the seed.

I think the Bible clearly shows us 2 different energies. A negative, wrathful and prideful energy that is tied to this material world AND a God of patients, grace and mercy who ONLY acts in righteous ways because the is Holy.

Weigh the vine from the seed, I find it no mistake that the Bible that is presented to us has these conflicting stories. Gods intent if FOR US TO WEIGHT IT FOR OURSELVES, COME TO CONCLUSION THROUGH YOUR HEART AND INTUITION THAT GOD GAVE YOU, WE ARE PRESENTED THESE 2 DIFFERENT ENERGIES FOR A REASON, GOD IS SHOWING US 2 DIFFERENT MASTERS>THROUGH A TRUE SEEKER< ONE WILL WEIGH THE VINE AND SEE A SEED OF HATE AND A SEED OF LOVE>YOU CHOOSE YOUR MASTER< DONT LET ANOTHER MAN CHOOSE YOUR MASTER FOR YOU. You can only follow ONE.

PEACE,
LV

I would agree with your statement that the topic is important to degree, but then you go down christian silly street.

What the hell are you talking about ? 2 different energies 2 different masters ?

Did you take the scripture about god confusing language literally ? Coz I'm buggered if I can work out what you said.


Weighing vines ? No wonder you people are so confused look what you've got to work with.

Q How do you weigh a pie ?

A Somewhere over a rainbow.

I believe in God. A God that is Creation, and is also not the Creation. I don't believe God participates directly in God's Physical Creation. Only through Nature and other sentient beings, does God participate.

So my take on the personified God portrayed in the Bible, is that it's really just metaphorical to the natural processes of Creation.

For instance, it is written in the Bible that God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah. I think this was probably the result of a volcanic eruption. Plagues?... well, just that, natural plagues. Great Flood? Global Warming..

Not discounting the Bible (per se)... I just think the descriptions in the Bible of God's actions are metaphorical to the actions of the nature inherent to the physical World God created.

Here is the kicker:

The Sun explodes (as it will), and with it, the complete annihilation of Earth. No Christian, puppy, child, or cancer victim is spared...

How do we justify this? What becomes of God's Goodness?

[edit on 1-12-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

reply to post by moocowman


Have you not read the Bible?

We are referred to as fruits. Jesus is referred to as the 'first fruit'. Repeatedly Jesus taught that you will know a vine from its seed. You can weigh and measure in your heart if something is of a good nature with no blemish or a rotten nature that is blemished.

Have you not ever heard of the parable about the vineyard (Earth)? Have you not heard the story about God stomping through the vineyard and Thee's garments being crimson, soaked with the juices of the fruit?

Many times over, the Bible says God will harvest his fruits. Many times over it says that Jesus, being the first fruit has made a new womb (kingdom).

When a plant blooms and produces fruit, its first fruit makes a new opening that was never there before. A new pod to grew its fruits in.

Just like you can look at a murdurer and weigh that the bad actions from the good actions....you can do the same with actions that are claimed to be of God. Weigh what God claims to do. If its not rightous, then its not fruit without blemish....

Google first fruits.

Yes, there are two energies...negative and positive. If you are living a greedy life or a prideful like, your allowing the negative energy of this material world to get the best of you. If you are living more for others then yourself and trying to make yourself a better person, letting all things humble your spirit, you are taking in positive energy, you are becoming a instrument for the will of righteousness.

Earth is also looked as as a wine press....the place where the pure juice gets pushed through the flesh of the grapes. Turning water into wine takes on a whole different meaning when we realize that Jesus saw us as fruits, leading the way as the first who got pushed through the wine press.

Peace,
LV

The Apostle Paul also referred to Jesus' resurrection as a type of "First Fruit" (1Corinthians 15:20) where he says: "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep."

I dont quote scripture often, but I needed to in order to show where I get this symbolic understanding. It makes alot of sense to me.


Also, a first born child opens a new Womb within its mother.

I believe these sayings are symbolic to how the processing of souls and spirit works. I believe 'no light shall be lost' is accomplished through a processing, similar to a grape going through a wine press and coming out as nice wine, symbolizing the spirit within flesh, being pushed out (sifted out) of the flesh so it can become once again, a rightful spirit.
LV

Originally posted by karl 12
Was the abrahamic god the worst serial killer in human history?

God Himself isn't the worst serial killer. People are.
I don't know if the abrahamic religions are the worst in human history.
We only know human history for a few thousand years.
There were human histories - lost histories - before that.

It is impossible to give the answer as to what religion is the bloodiest.
We dont' have all our human history known.

Originally posted by holywar
Am I the only Christian coming to Jehovah God's defense (although he really doesn't need it) on this topic?

Well I think if He was in the Hague genocide court he'd need a pretty good lawyer.

"I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living." - Ezekiel 33:11

Ah yes wasn't this the same god which said:

Leviticus 20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.

20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.

Exodus 35:2
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

20:10-17 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

Ezekiel 20:25-26 I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.

Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Leviticus 25:44-45
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Without wanting to offend anyones faith here but these comments sound like those of a dangerous lunatic.
Advocating murder of men and women,promoting genocide and the right to own slaves ect..
To me all these comments are indefensible.
Have I got it wrong?

reply to post by karl 12

It is a shame because I'd genuinely like to know how people compensate for (and possibly justify) the actions of the abrahamic god whilst I cannot.

The answer usually given is,divine justice.They were wicked so God killed them in bloody and creative ways.Its the,they had it coming mentality.

It has been argued that these things happened because people didn't follow God's laws.My answer,what about the children? Children under a certain age do not know right from wrong,so what could they have possibly done to warrant being slaughtered too? I have never had a satisfactory answer to that.

Another angle is,many of these people killed may never had heard of God Almighty,so how can they be guilty of breaking laws they didn't even know existed?

Originally posted by jakyll
The answer usually given is,divine justice.They were wicked so God killed them in bloody and creative ways.Its the,they had it coming mentality.

It has been argued that these things happened because people didn't follow God's laws.My answer,what about the children? Children under a certain age do not know right from wrong,so what could they have possibly done to warrant being slaughtered too? I have never had a satisfactory answer to that.

Another angle is,many of these people killed may never had heard of God Almighty,so how can they be guilty of breaking laws they didn't even know existed?

Jakyll,thanks for the reply-you make some mighty fine points.
This 'apologist/divine retribution' line of reasoning all smacks of selfish,fuzzy logic to me-maybe its precisely because religious thought is so inherently agenda driven and myopic that people have to keep justifying this line of thought (whilst wilfully ignoring all else which doesn't fit in with their preconceived opinion),however ludicrous or unreasonable it may seem to everybody else.

I suppose as long as it doesn't harm other people,folks should be free to beleive whatever they wish ...but its been said that the truth has got nothing to hide (and does not fear free enquiry) so theres nothing wrong in asking why a supposed all encompassing creator of the universe, who invented virtues like compassion and benevolence, would turn His back on these attributes and viciously murder 33 million of His own creation for divine amusement or revenge.

God must be a little insecure if He's going around avenging his wrath on us puny humans (or a little mentaly disturbed if He's doing it for amusement).
Cheers Karl

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by LeoVirgo


The bible may refer to you as a fruit but leave me out of it, I just been exausted defending gay rights without now having to consider god making me gay witout my permission.



Well it was funny to me at the time

The hubris of the people in this thread astounds me. And that is no easy feat.

I'll tell you like God told Job (paraphrased, of course): "Don't like the way God made this universe? Go make your own!"

His universe, his rules. If you don't like it, make your own.

karl 12

Cheers.

This 'apologist/divine retribution' line of reasoning all smacks of selfish,fuzzy logic to me-maybe its precisely because religious thought is so inherently agenda driven and myopic that people have to keep justifying this line of thought (whilst wilfully ignoring all else which doesn't fit in with their preconceived opinion),however ludicrous or unreasonable it may seem to everybody else.

Thats exactly what it is.People automatically make this response without actually thinking it through.To them,divine justice,is all you need to know.They see no reason to look further and don't like it when others do.





holywar

It just goes to show the lack of understanding of the reasons for these ancient God approved wars, and acts of Divine justice like in the case of the deluge and Sodom and Gomorrah.

But can you answer why God took action against children and those who had never heard of him?




sir_chancealot

The hubris of the people in this thread astounds me. And that is no easy feat.

So,its arrogant to ask questions,to try and expand our knowledge?

And where exactly did God say that to Job,its been a while since i read that book?

Originally posted by sir_chancealot
The hubris of the people in this thread astounds me. And that is no easy feat.

Is it not more 'arrogant and full of excessive pride' for having the audacity to judge,label and criticise people for not unquestioningly beleiving the fantastical claims (and mindlessly conforming to the doctrine of) organised religion?

I'll tell you like God told Job (paraphrased, of course): "Don't like the way God made this universe? Go make your own!"
His universe, his rules. If you don't like it, make your own.

Wow,I realy didn't think people thought like that in this day and age.
So, god is quite within his rights to brutally massacre millions of men,women and children and still warrant unconditional subservience and worship is he?
Maybe absolute dominant brutality and freedom to control and manipulate others without consequence is what draws some people to the abrahamic god in the first place.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]