What makes you think God has limits?

reply to post by noobfun


Again, you seem to be making false assumptions using your flawed human logic. Didn't I propose that the bible may not be written by God? Doesn't that indicate that I'm disputing biblical scripture as the sole manual for defining God's limitations? The very fact that you believe your logic is perfect demonstrates the flaw in it.

Originally posted by speaker
reply to post by SamuraiDrifter

 

Let's look at the creation story in the Bible.

God created the earth. It exists and can be verified.
God created the day & the night. They exist and can be verified.
God created the seas and the land. They exist and can be verified.
God created the plants and the animals. They exist and can be verified.
God created us. We exist and can be verified.

In fact, as ridiculous as that story is, I can't find one thing about it that can be disputed. Can you?

You ask "Where is the evidence?" My answer is, "What is your alternative, and where is the evidence of that?" Now make sure that your "evidence" can not be explained by any other alternative than the one you propose, otherwise it falls into the same category as the ridiculous creation story in the bible.

Oh, please. Replace "God" with "The Flying Spaghetti Monster" and the argument is the same.

reply to post by SamuraiDrifter


True, although no less valid. Maybe God is the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Originally posted by speaker

Let's look at the creation story in the Bible.

God created the earth. It exists and can be verified.

to exist not that god made it

God created the day & the night. They exist and can be verified.

but the bible creates then before there can be a day and night, as you need a planet in orbit of a star for day and night to happen

God created the seas and the land. They exist and can be verified.

to exist not that god made it

God created the plants and the animals. They exist and can be verified.

to exist not that god made it

God created us. We exist and can be verified.

to exist not that god made it

In fact, as ridiculous as that story is, I can't find one thing about it that can be disputed. Can you?

you need a stars gravity to form planets, so planets cannot exist without stars to first produce chemical elements and gravity of other stars to coallese them into planets

theres a couple,

how about light with no source for light yet created?

You ask "Where is the evidence?" My answer is, "What is your alternative, and where is the evidence of that?"

thats not an answer its a dodge

big bang, astrophysics, abiogenesis, evolution, maths, gravity, chemistry there are some of the answers

now lets see yours?

Now make sure that your "evidence" can not be explained by any other alternative than the one you propose, otherwise it falls into the same category as the ridiculous creation story in the bible.

nope it doesnt becasue its based on observations and testability, it may only be partly right(becasue nothing is ever absolute in science) but thats still a lot more right then the bibles account

Originally posted by speaker

Again, you seem to be making false assumptions using your flawed human logic.

and your making fale assumptions on a book written by the same humans only without any logic and the example it gives of a divine power existing

Didn't I propose that the bible may not be written by God? Doesn't that indicate that I'm disputing biblical scripture as the sole manual for defining God's limitations? The very fact that you believe your logic is perfect demonstrates the flaw in it.

its not perfect as perfect is a false concept of possability like omnipotent or infinity or any other absolute

the logic may not be perfect but religeon often relies on a complete absence of logic and understanding and questioning to continue its stories

to deffine gods limitations or not you need to first prove a god exists, deffine a unicorns power for me will you? i say any unicorn is more powerful then god, does that make it true? no no more then you saying god exists and is all powerful makes him/she/it true

the fact you believe it to exist grants it no power out side of your own head, belief does not make a thing real except for your own perceptions of reality

[edit on 4/12/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by noobfun
to deffine gods limitations or not you need to first prove a god exists

There are some things which are not of our physical world. These cannot be proven or verified with any evidence.

Let's take a quote from a movie called Contact:

Palmer Joss, a spiritual investigator and writer in the movie, asks astronomer Dr. Eleanor Arroway if she loved her father, who died when Ellie was young.

She says, “Yes, very much.”

Joss responds, “Prove it.”

Love cannot be defined or verified with any science. Yet, I'm sure if you ask anyone, with a few rare exceptions, they will say "of course it's real!".

Originally posted by Reddupo

Love cannot be defined or verified with any science. Yet, I'm sure if you ask anyone, with a few rare exceptions, they will say "of course it's real!".

but we can analyse it effects on behaviour and brain chemicals and personal psychology

becasue we cant deffine it yet doesnt mean we wont ever be able to, also doesnt mean it is god

reply to post by noobfun


You are really struggling to comprehend the flawed human logic concept aren't you? Then again, what can be expected when you are using flawed human logic to comprehend it. It's not you're fault, no alternative is available to you. I understand that.

I don't know why you persist in breaking every post down into a multitude of sections, it makes it so difficult and more to the point, requires too much motivation on my part, to address each section one at a time. However, fortunately all your responses present the same repetitve information, despite the numerous replies, so I'm able to answer many of them with the same response. Thankyou, I appreciate that. Here goes:

God is unlimited, thus is not bound by the "current" laws scientists dictate all is bound by. There is no real evidence of anything, including big bang, astrophysics, abiogenesis, evolution, maths, gravity, chemistry and God alike. Therefore just as I cannot prove God exists, you cannot prove any of these other afore-mentioned "facts." Surely I couldn't be reading that correctly, you say? All the so called evidence for these things, are merely assumptions that we believe join the appropriate dots sufficiently to convince us of their accuracy. As I mentioned previously, evidence is only valid if no other alternative can explain it.

The Big Bang is incomplete, we don't know what it was that created the "bang." We can't decide if the universe is expanding, accelerating, contracting, moving at constant speed. Astrophysics is incomplete, gravity seems to work differently in the universe than it does within earth and we need to invent concepts like "Dark Matter" to validate current flawed theories. Abiogenesis and evolution make huge assumptions that require impossible leaps that cannot, and have not, been observed in order to function. Maths in itself does not explain anything, it is merely a language used to help explain other theories. Chemistry explains how we "currently" believe the elements react with one another, based on observations to date. Assumptions are made from these observations about the properties the elements possess. There are alternative explanations for all of the above, and for God, thus no evidence exists for any of it. You have presented nothing that invalidates this statement.

You are the one bringing up religion and my reliance on the bible to explain God's power, not me. You are dodging my statement about your flawed logic. This is why you shouldn't using a broken calculator to the answer to life's equations.

Originally posted by poster
I'm happy for them to dispute God's existence and any aspects of specific creation stories on the basis of a lack of faith or belief, have doubts about how far-fetched it all sounds by all means, but please refrain from outlandish claims that it can be proven to be false.

First things first. What, exactly, do you mean by "God?" Can you define or describe the concept without obvious internal logical flaws and paradoxes?

If not, I don't see how you can argue for its existence.

Originally posted by speaker

You are really struggling to comprehend the flawed human logic concept aren't you? Then again, what can be expected when you are using flawed human logic to comprehend it. It's not you're fault, no alternative is available to you. I understand that.

im struggaling not at all

your ignoring the fact the bible suffers the same flaws that its man made, its been added modified and editted countless times, it displays a complete lack of logic throughout and this is your source for gods message

logic is constant its a model of reality

if you discount logic becasue its by the hand of man the same goes for religeon and its books, more often then not even more so in its flaws o if the bible is so wrong and full of misrepresentations then maybe there is no god to begin with its just another of its falseties

I don't know why you persist in breaking every post down into a multitude of sections, it makes it so difficult and more to the point, requires too much motivation on my part, to address each section one at a time.

becasue when several ideas are expressed its easier to answer each individually it leads to clarity, less chance to confuse one point with another

However, fortunately all your responses present the same repetitve information, despite the numerous replies, so I'm able to answer many of them with the same response. Thankyou, I appreciate that. Here goes:

what can i say when the same flawed reply is made over and over i find my self repeating

God is unlimited, thus is not bound by the "current" laws scientists dictate all is bound by. There is no real evidence of anything, including big bang, astrophysics, abiogenesis, evolution, maths, gravity, chemistry and God alike. Therefore just as I cannot prove God exists, you cannot prove any of these other afore-mentioned "facts."

by thier very nature of bieng facts allows us to study and understand them and thier governing laws(forces)

by undersatnding what causes the facts we can prove that thoeries that explain them can be tested and proven

saying god is unprovable is a cheap goal post moving exercise to avoid it bieng questioned, read the bible he proves he exists on every single page with miracles and manifestations, havnt you ever wondered why an unchanging god suddenly changed and stopped? maybe the bible is wrong which could also mean your belief in god is too

Surely I couldn't be reading that correctly, you say? All the so called evidence for these things, are merely assumptions that we believe join the appropriate dots sufficiently to convince us of their accuracy.

and by using them to make accurate predictions we can test just how valid those assumptions are, and if they are valid they become theories

As I mentioned previously, evidence is only valid if no other alternative can explain it.

wrong

evidence is only valid if there is no evidence that is contruary to it to provide an alternate explenation

saying god dun it isnt a valid alternate any more then me saying the mighty unicorn did it and gods a lie made up by the anti-corn

The Big Bang is incomplete, we don't know what it was that created the "bang."

but we know it happened and we understand much of it

We can't decide if the universe is expanding, accelerating,

yes we can both of these

contracting, moving at constant speed.

both of these are failed hypothesies, they failed because teh evidence didnt pan out

Astrophysics is incomplete, gravity seems to work differently in the universe than it does within earth

yes thats becasue of relativity, it doesnt work differently it just has things in space to deal with that it doesnt have to on earth

and we need to invent concepts like "Dark Matter" to validate current flawed theories

but the model works perfectly now ^_^

Abiogenesis and evolution make huge assumptions that require impossible leaps that cannot, and have not, been observed in order to function.

you really dont know much about science do you?

abiogenesis has already been shown to explain many of the things its required to to become a theory, its not there yet but its a young hypothesis in terms of research

evolutioon makes 0 leaps, its ben observed its been tested its suported by evidence from multipul areas within science its a theory becasue its been proven (im talking the actual scientific deffintion here not the one creationists put about)

Maths in itself does not explain anything, it is merely a language used to help explain other theories. Chemistry explains how we "currently" believe the elements react with one another, based on observations to date. Assumptions are made from these observations about the properties the elements possess.

then they are tested over and over to prove thier validity

There are alternative explanations for all of the above, and for God, thus no evidence exists for any of it. You have presented nothing that invalidates this statement.

but none of the alternates have evidence can make accurrate predictions

and have no validity beyoind saying i think it might be true, like god

You are the one bringing up religion and my reliance on the bible to explain God's power, not me. You are dodging my statement about your flawed logic. This is why you shouldn't using a broken calculator to the answer to life's equations.

show me how the logic is flawed? im make no dodges logic is constant like the universal laws

the god of the bible creates paradox's and paradox's break everything

trying to say god doesnt have to be logical, or logic is flawed where gods concerned is a dodge



[edit on 4/12/08 by noobfun]

reply to post by noobfun


noobfun:

I don't believe that God being the creator of the heavens, universe, seas, and everything on/in it would be bound by our physical laws. He is a spiritual being and would have no problem getting about where ever he chose.



Peace,
Grandma

Originally posted by noobfun
gods power is limited only by the imagination of the people that cunjouer him for what ever thier own need is

his earthly physical power however seems to be 0, for someone who did all those wonderful things and appeared to the masses and showed them many great wonders and spoke to many at the same time

he is .....shall we say latley lacking

and why if your tired of it create a thread thats just going to bring more?

[edit on 29/11/08 by noobfun]

i agree with your first statment, and to an extent your second statement. i'm just a human with limited intelligence, but here's what i think. This world has become so evil, so vile and so disgusting, why would he want to speak us or show himself? People give him no respect, they hate him, and deny that he even exists.

Originally posted by noobfun
but we can analyse it effects on behaviour and brain chemicals and personal psychology

becasue we cant deffine it yet doesnt mean we wont ever be able to, also doesnt mean it is god

The "effects" of love can not be proven to be derived from love.

"Why are you acting so giggly?"
"I'm in love"
"Prove love is the reason why you are so giggly"

There is no evidence for love, and no definition. Just behaviors that have attributions that are subjective. For all scientific purposes, intangible.

"God" is not a physical, measurable, quantifiable material, not unlike love. Because of this you can never capture God, or measure God, or quantify God, or any other form that would be accepted as evidence to your physical sciences. For all scientific purposes, intangible.

"love is not god", come on noobfun, I understand you're very logic oriented, but analogies make frequent appearances in everyday life...

[edit on 4-12-2008 by Reddupo]

[edit on 4-12-2008 by Reddupo]

Originally posted by beach2197

i agree with your first statment, and to an extent your second statement. i'm just a human with limited intelligence, but here's what i think. This world has become so evil, so vile and so disgusting, why would he want to speak us or show himself? People give him no respect, they hate him, and deny that he even exists.

and yet in the bible he does exactly that

he rains down punishmnet on the wicked time and time again

he shows himself to the masses of those who beleive and those who dont

if god is unchanging why does he chnage so much?

why 4000 years of proving him self to everyone with mass personal appearances and mass wonders does he suddenly stop?

wouldnt now be the time a loving and just god would show him self rather then let the troubles of the world continue?

if the bible is 'man made", then how are all of the prophetic writings true to the day? it predicted the coming of the Christ in Daniel i believe....to the day! Literally, man must have written the bible, but can man, in AAAALLL of his extensive knowledge and intellect, really predict or visualize future events a thousand years before they happen to the day?? someone must have shown the author a vision or something for them to be that accurate. I belive that someone is God.

Originally posted by Reddupo

The "effects" of love can not be proven to be derived from love.

"Why are you acting so giggly?"
"I'm in love"
"Prove love is the reason why you are so giggly"

"God" is not a physical, measurable, quantifiable material, not unlike love. Because of this you can never capture God, or measure God, or quantify God, or any other form that would be accepted as evidence to your physical sciences.

"love is not god", come on noobfun, I understand you're very logic oriented, but analogies make frequent appearances in everyday life...

love is a term we give for a state of the mind

we can analyse it and test it, we may not know why or how it happens but were working on it, we can psycho analyse it and understand it

god on the other hand cant be becasue despite his many miracles to thousands of people in the past the only evidence is a book written by many altered changed eddited deleted

why if such great things occured is there no evidence left behind? why did he suddenly stop?

the bible has been disproved so many times from so many sources if god exists he is not the god of the bible or the torrah or the quaran

reply to post by noobfun


so what are your beliefs, athiestic?? evolutionist? sounds like you believe in some aspect of the bible

Originally posted by noobfun

and yet in the bible he does exactly that

he rains down punishmnet on the wicked time and time again

We humans cause most if not all of our problems.

he shows himself to the masses of those who beleive and those who dont

if god is unchanging why does he chnage so much?

Before all this technology and skepticism, and widespread knowledge of the scientific expalanations, in the days of the Bible, if you fell down a long way and survived, or if you saw the Northern lights, you would say God showed himself to you.

wouldnt now be the time a loving and just god would show him self rather then let the troubles of the world continue?

Does a good teacher give up on you and just give you the answers when the going gets tough? It's called hard love, and it's the only sort of teaching that gives humility as well as knowledge.

Originally posted by beach2197
if the bible is 'man made", then how are all of the prophetic writings true to the day? it predicted the coming of the Christ in Daniel i believe....to the day! Literally, man must have written the bible, but can man, in AAAALLL of his extensive knowledge and intellect, really predict or visualize future events a thousand years before they happen to the day?? someone must have shown the author a vision or something for them to be that accurate. I belive that someone is God.

jesus failed to do many of them

and theres no mention in the bible of him having another try

it says when jesus comes back he comes with fire and death

and how hard is it to write about a prophecy bieng fulfilled when the accounts of them bieng done are written by people who wernt there if jesus was real

even the one bieng descended from the line of david fails, he claims decent through joseph but he isnt his father, and no where does it say mary is of the line of david

Originally posted by Reddupo

We humans cause most if not all of our problems.

read your bible read it well

mans actions are pnuished by god time and time again

Before all this technology and skepticism, and widespread knowledge of the scientific expalanations, in the days of the Bible, if you fell down a long way and survived, or if you saw the Northern lights, you would say God showed himself to you.

so your discrediting the bibles accounts of god showing up then? as not being proof of god

Does a good teacher give up on you and just give you the answers when the going gets tough? It's called hard love, and it's the only sort of teaching that gives humility as well as knowledge.

hahaha

the hard love he gives is fire falling from the sky, floods and plagues and he makes sure you know it was him

so why not now? why not for 2000 years? why the sudden change?