reply to post by Alter-Ego
Aliens from other planets, multi-dimentional beings, angels & demons... they're all the same in my opinion. Just different interpretations of
different species. We all exist in the multiverse, but humans are only able to experience 3 dimentions.
That's my piece!
OK, so UFO's are REAL..now what?, page 6
privacy
reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 01:16 PM by Badge01
reply to post by Heike
Nice post.
Let's look at one real and one fictional representation of an advanced sentient group visiting another planet.
We visited Mars. How did we do it?
1. We used the smallest possible probes which would be able to contain all the instruments needed to do surveying and sampling;
2. We did not use a stealthy system;
3. We did not visit in person.
The Starship Enterprise visited other planets and except for nearly crashing out of orbit NEVER had craft flying around in the atmosphere.
Any visiting alien species would:
1. Use the smallest, most economically feasible craft necessary to visit other star systems. Let me ask you, why are ALL fantasy depictions of aliens completely devoid of economic considerations? Because ANY large-scale visitations in giant ships, would break the budget of any Class II civilization.
2. Use Non-stealth probes. Why use stealth? It's not necessary, it's not testable, it's not viable. So all this talk of SECRECY is only out there because the ALIEN phenomenon seems stealthy, hiding behind atmospheric phenomenon, lights in the sky and mistaken identifications.
3. Any alien civilizations which might want to visit other planets would FIRST have to assure they would not be destroyed by planetary collisions, or gamma-ray bursts. This means they MUST have a complete duplication of their main planetary capabilities. Otherwise any group going out to explore might find their planet has had an extinction event when they return.
4. Cross-contamination by micro-organisms is a REAL, valid and compelling consideration. H.G. Wells was right.
These are only the top four requirements for a carbon-based, sentient, technology-based civilization who might attempt space-faring.
To summarize:
1. No large visits, economics;
2. No stealth;
3. Long dwell time before space-exploration can commence;
4. No visits in person by biological-entities due to contamination risk.
A couple minor concerns.
1. Just as on Earth, the concept of 'PRIME REAL ESTATE' exists. If Mars is not a thriving alien colony, then they are NOT here in our Solar System.
2. Robust Quarantine - The Galaxy is a vast expanse of mostly empty space. High radiation, Hard vacuum. Vast distances. Intense cold. Micrometeorite risks.
3. The Fermi paradox. It only would take a million years to colonize an expanse the size of our Galaxy. They're not on every planet yet, and Billions of years have passed.
4. Time Synchronicity.
The last one, Time Sync is one of the biggest barriers to any theory of Alien Visitation. Our technological civilization has existed for only a few thousand years. To sync up a visit with our technological phase, taking into account travel time to even the closest systems, would be nearly impossible.
For all practical purposes, these above factors make the possibility of visits to Earth NOW, by non-human, non-terrestrial entities an extremely small possibility. So small that any list of explanations would have it so far down at the bottom of choices so as to be negligible.
So, any discussion of Aliens being -here- in person, would have to solve and explain all these exceptional circumstances to be a viable, top-of-the-list explanation for any observations of what we call the ET-hypothesis.
en.wikipedia.org...
This does not mean that advanced sentient carbon-based live does not exist in the Galaxy or in the Universe.
It simply limits the chances they're coming here. (or even getting off their own planet)
Just some thoughts.
[edit on 11/30/2008 by Badge01]
Nice post.
Let's look at one real and one fictional representation of an advanced sentient group visiting another planet.
We visited Mars. How did we do it?
1. We used the smallest possible probes which would be able to contain all the instruments needed to do surveying and sampling;
2. We did not use a stealthy system;
3. We did not visit in person.
The Starship Enterprise visited other planets and except for nearly crashing out of orbit NEVER had craft flying around in the atmosphere.
Any visiting alien species would:
1. Use the smallest, most economically feasible craft necessary to visit other star systems. Let me ask you, why are ALL fantasy depictions of aliens completely devoid of economic considerations? Because ANY large-scale visitations in giant ships, would break the budget of any Class II civilization.
2. Use Non-stealth probes. Why use stealth? It's not necessary, it's not testable, it's not viable. So all this talk of SECRECY is only out there because the ALIEN phenomenon seems stealthy, hiding behind atmospheric phenomenon, lights in the sky and mistaken identifications.
3. Any alien civilizations which might want to visit other planets would FIRST have to assure they would not be destroyed by planetary collisions, or gamma-ray bursts. This means they MUST have a complete duplication of their main planetary capabilities. Otherwise any group going out to explore might find their planet has had an extinction event when they return.
4. Cross-contamination by micro-organisms is a REAL, valid and compelling consideration. H.G. Wells was right.
These are only the top four requirements for a carbon-based, sentient, technology-based civilization who might attempt space-faring.
To summarize:
1. No large visits, economics;
2. No stealth;
3. Long dwell time before space-exploration can commence;
4. No visits in person by biological-entities due to contamination risk.
A couple minor concerns.
1. Just as on Earth, the concept of 'PRIME REAL ESTATE' exists. If Mars is not a thriving alien colony, then they are NOT here in our Solar System.
2. Robust Quarantine - The Galaxy is a vast expanse of mostly empty space. High radiation, Hard vacuum. Vast distances. Intense cold. Micrometeorite risks.
3. The Fermi paradox. It only would take a million years to colonize an expanse the size of our Galaxy. They're not on every planet yet, and Billions of years have passed.
4. Time Synchronicity.
The last one, Time Sync is one of the biggest barriers to any theory of Alien Visitation. Our technological civilization has existed for only a few thousand years. To sync up a visit with our technological phase, taking into account travel time to even the closest systems, would be nearly impossible.
For all practical purposes, these above factors make the possibility of visits to Earth NOW, by non-human, non-terrestrial entities an extremely small possibility. So small that any list of explanations would have it so far down at the bottom of choices so as to be negligible.
So, any discussion of Aliens being -here- in person, would have to solve and explain all these exceptional circumstances to be a viable, top-of-the-list explanation for any observations of what we call the ET-hypothesis.
en.wikipedia.org...
This does not mean that advanced sentient carbon-based live does not exist in the Galaxy or in the Universe.
It simply limits the chances they're coming here. (or even getting off their own planet)
Just some thoughts.
[edit on 11/30/2008 by Badge01]
reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 01:21 PM by SpacePunk
reply to post by oinkment
In all fairness to history, descriptions of unknown things flying through the air always used the closes approximation in terms that the observer knew. I doubt that ancient man would look at something unknown that flies, and say "That looks like an airplane!" So, it was characterized as beasts (before wheeled transport), chariots/buggies (after wheeled transport), airships/zepplins (before airplanes, after balloons),and aircraft/spacecraft in the modern era.
It's not so much that the form has changed, the describing vocabulary has changed.
In all fairness to history, descriptions of unknown things flying through the air always used the closes approximation in terms that the observer knew. I doubt that ancient man would look at something unknown that flies, and say "That looks like an airplane!" So, it was characterized as beasts (before wheeled transport), chariots/buggies (after wheeled transport), airships/zepplins (before airplanes, after balloons),and aircraft/spacecraft in the modern era.
It's not so much that the form has changed, the describing vocabulary has changed.
reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 01:40 PM by Leto
*SNIP*
I noticed you mentioned Star Trek, I'm a huge fan of Star Trek: TNG. In TNG it is known that Starfleet spies on planets to determine whether or not to make official contact with them. They even send some of our people disguised as aliens to live among the aliens in secrecy for years in an effort to determine if they are worthy of contact.
I want to comment on your other skeptic points but don't have the time now, will do later.
Mod-Note: Large quote removed. Please review this link:
Excessive Quoting vs. How to Quote
[edit on 30-11-2008 by Skyfloating]
I noticed you mentioned Star Trek, I'm a huge fan of Star Trek: TNG. In TNG it is known that Starfleet spies on planets to determine whether or not to make official contact with them. They even send some of our people disguised as aliens to live among the aliens in secrecy for years in an effort to determine if they are worthy of contact.
I want to comment on your other skeptic points but don't have the time now, will do later.
Mod-Note: Large quote removed. Please review this link:
Excessive Quoting vs. How to Quote
[edit on 30-11-2008 by Skyfloating]
reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 03:35 PM by Badge01
reply to post by havanaja
Good point on the 'human shape' idea.
-Most- scientists and futurists will say that it makes sense to have a majority of sense organs in one area, thus a 'head'. Most say it makes sense for creatures who are designed to travel in space (with attendant hazards/requirements) to be:
1. Relatively small (under 5'8-ish)
2. Have arms or tentacles
3. Lack lower body specialization (no need to perambulate)
4. Have durable skin and uncomplex organ-systems (less to go wrong)
5. Self-healing capabilities
I might add other advantages would be:
1. Radiation resistant;
2. Slow metabolism but quick computational skills (or use of bio-mechanical augmentation;
3. Be entirely non-biological (i.e. android). (bio-systems seem to do best at self-healing, though, so maybe part bio-part android/mechanical).
On the idea of the poster above about 'vastness of the Universe', remember, with 10e21 stars in the Universe, you could have 1 sentient civilization for every 100 Galaxies, leaving 10e19 civilizations, BUT they would be SO SPARSE (large distance between them) that, like SPACE, the Universe would be deemed mostly EMPTY of life.
See the paradox? As you approach fantastically large numers, arguments based on 'numbers' and 'prevalence' rapidly become meaningless.
If there were only 1 sentient space faring civilization per million Galaxies, that would still mean there were 10e15 civilizations, but we'd never bump into them traveling everywhere we could for Billions of years.
Good point on the 'human shape' idea.
-Most- scientists and futurists will say that it makes sense to have a majority of sense organs in one area, thus a 'head'. Most say it makes sense for creatures who are designed to travel in space (with attendant hazards/requirements) to be:
1. Relatively small (under 5'8-ish)
2. Have arms or tentacles
3. Lack lower body specialization (no need to perambulate)
4. Have durable skin and uncomplex organ-systems (less to go wrong)
5. Self-healing capabilities
I might add other advantages would be:
1. Radiation resistant;
2. Slow metabolism but quick computational skills (or use of bio-mechanical augmentation;
3. Be entirely non-biological (i.e. android). (bio-systems seem to do best at self-healing, though, so maybe part bio-part android/mechanical).
On the idea of the poster above about 'vastness of the Universe', remember, with 10e21 stars in the Universe, you could have 1 sentient civilization for every 100 Galaxies, leaving 10e19 civilizations, BUT they would be SO SPARSE (large distance between them) that, like SPACE, the Universe would be deemed mostly EMPTY of life.
See the paradox? As you approach fantastically large numers, arguments based on 'numbers' and 'prevalence' rapidly become meaningless.
If there were only 1 sentient space faring civilization per million Galaxies, that would still mean there were 10e15 civilizations, but we'd never bump into them traveling everywhere we could for Billions of years.
reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 04:21 PM by Badge01
reply to post by oinkment
Heh, thanks, but Mods are chosen based on some mysterious list of requirements and making good theories is probably not on that list.
I'm the first to admit that my theories are, in part, EXTREMELY anthropomorphic, i.e. based on what we know about sentient beings.
BUT, most of the 'beings' people report are also 'Humanoid' looking. IOW, no one that I'm aware has ever reported being abducted or contacted by an extremely -different- creature (like a Giant living spaceship like Maya on Farscape, or a race of beetles or bees).
Virtually -all- reported contactees describe 'human-like' creatures, or creatures based on Earth organisms.
Our Sci-Fi is pretty 'out there' but I don't know of any sci-fi creature that isn't based, in some part, on a earth creature, from a giant amoeba to a hive, to a Maya, to race of tree-creatures, or rock-creatures.
I'd expect, as Arthur C. Clarke and others have suggested, that true 'aliens' would be "stranger than we can imagine". Thus, almost all reports of 'aliens' have that 'tell' of being based on an Earth creature, be it Reptile, Insectoid, Mammalian, Birdlike or Amphibian.
I think one BIG error we make is in postulating that there are ANY pressures, evolutionary or otherwise, that select for Intelligence.
MOST pressures are towards bigger teeth, bigger claws, bigger size and more aggression. The only creatures that evolve intelligence are those WITHOUT such robust characteristics - it's their 'defense' toward the common evolutionary trend and thus, I think, would be rare and easily killed off.
Remember, the Dinosaurs dominated for Millions and Millions of years and the result was mostly bigger dinosaurs. Majungatholus dominated Madagascar uncontested for 50-60 million years and never got 'smarter'.
So if 'intelligence' is an accident and a defense mechanism, I think it's entirely possible that there are only a few sentients anywhere.
Where am I leading with this train of thought?
Though many people somewhat mindlessly parrot the adage about it being 'ARROGANT' to think we're alone, I actually think it's preferable to believe we are COMPLETELY ALONE in the whole Universe.
Why? Well, maybe if we took this idea to heart we'd get some small realization of how special and rare and wonderful we are, and how important it is we don't kill ourselves off.
We may be the Universe's one, best chance, and it has nothing to do with arrogance. In fact, it engenders a deep sense of Humility.
$.02
Heh, thanks, but Mods are chosen based on some mysterious list of requirements and making good theories is probably not on that list.
I'm the first to admit that my theories are, in part, EXTREMELY anthropomorphic, i.e. based on what we know about sentient beings.
BUT, most of the 'beings' people report are also 'Humanoid' looking. IOW, no one that I'm aware has ever reported being abducted or contacted by an extremely -different- creature (like a Giant living spaceship like Maya on Farscape, or a race of beetles or bees).
Virtually -all- reported contactees describe 'human-like' creatures, or creatures based on Earth organisms.
Our Sci-Fi is pretty 'out there' but I don't know of any sci-fi creature that isn't based, in some part, on a earth creature, from a giant amoeba to a hive, to a Maya, to race of tree-creatures, or rock-creatures.
I'd expect, as Arthur C. Clarke and others have suggested, that true 'aliens' would be "stranger than we can imagine". Thus, almost all reports of 'aliens' have that 'tell' of being based on an Earth creature, be it Reptile, Insectoid, Mammalian, Birdlike or Amphibian.
I think one BIG error we make is in postulating that there are ANY pressures, evolutionary or otherwise, that select for Intelligence.
MOST pressures are towards bigger teeth, bigger claws, bigger size and more aggression. The only creatures that evolve intelligence are those WITHOUT such robust characteristics - it's their 'defense' toward the common evolutionary trend and thus, I think, would be rare and easily killed off.
Remember, the Dinosaurs dominated for Millions and Millions of years and the result was mostly bigger dinosaurs. Majungatholus dominated Madagascar uncontested for 50-60 million years and never got 'smarter'.
So if 'intelligence' is an accident and a defense mechanism, I think it's entirely possible that there are only a few sentients anywhere.
Where am I leading with this train of thought?
Though many people somewhat mindlessly parrot the adage about it being 'ARROGANT' to think we're alone, I actually think it's preferable to believe we are COMPLETELY ALONE in the whole Universe.
Why? Well, maybe if we took this idea to heart we'd get some small realization of how special and rare and wonderful we are, and how important it is we don't kill ourselves off.
We may be the Universe's one, best chance, and it has nothing to do with arrogance. In fact, it engenders a deep sense of Humility.
$.02
reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 06:30 PM by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by Alter-Ego
I reckon there ancient ships if you look back India had a civilization ,that supposedly had ships that fit the descriptions of these UFO's and what nuclear weapons looked like as well so yep that my through check em out there call Valhalla's or something very similar
I reckon there ancient ships if you look back India had a civilization ,that supposedly had ships that fit the descriptions of these UFO's and what nuclear weapons looked like as well so yep that my through check em out there call Valhalla's or something very similar
reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 06:40 PM by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by Alter-Ego
I believe that ufo's exist. And I believe in extra terrestrials. I asked my dad one day if he believed in flying saucers and life on other planets. My dad was a very down to earth man. He told me that he just didn't see how we could be all there was in this huge universe. When I asked him what he thought that they looked like, he told me that he was sure that part of them had large heads with large almond shaped eyes because there were so many sightings that described them like that. I agree with Dad, I just don't see how we can be the only living beings in a universe as big as ours.
I believe that ufo's exist. And I believe in extra terrestrials. I asked my dad one day if he believed in flying saucers and life on other planets. My dad was a very down to earth man. He told me that he just didn't see how we could be all there was in this huge universe. When I asked him what he thought that they looked like, he told me that he was sure that part of them had large heads with large almond shaped eyes because there were so many sightings that described them like that. I agree with Dad, I just don't see how we can be the only living beings in a universe as big as ours.
reply posted on 30-11-2008 @ 06:59 PM by Leto
Originally posted by Badge01
I think one BIG error we make is in postulating that there are ANY pressures, evolutionary or otherwise, that select for Intelligence.
MOST pressures are towards bigger teeth, bigger claws, bigger size and more aggression. The only creatures that evolve intelligence are those WITHOUT such robust characteristics - it's their 'defense' toward the common evolutionary trend and thus, I think, would be rare and easily killed off.
Remember, the Dinosaurs dominated for Millions and Millions of years and the result was mostly bigger dinosaurs. Majungatholus dominated Madagascar uncontested for 50-60 million years and never got 'smarter'.
So if 'intelligence' is an accident and a defense mechanism, I think it's entirely possible that there are only a few sentients anywhere.
Where am I leading with this train of thought?
Though many people somewhat mindlessly parrot the adage about it being 'ARROGANT' to think we're alone, I actually think it's preferable to believe we are COMPLETELY ALONE in the whole Universe.
Why? Well, maybe if we took this idea to heart we'd get some small realization of how special and rare and wonderful we are, and how important it is we don't kill ourselves off.
We may be the Universe's one, best chance, and it has nothing to do with arrogance. In fact, it engenders a deep sense of Humility.
$.02
You are correct that intelligence is merely a defense mechanism, that's why it takes a long time for sentience to form. The universe is billions of years old, that's a lot of time. It's probable that there are alien races out there that have been around for over a billion years. I do not see why you would think that sentience would be rare.
I however do not believe intelliegence is an accident, to me it's clearly a defense mechanism. I believe that given enough time, any planet with life would eventually form sentient beings.
I do not see how the belief that your race is the only one in the world would make your survival any more important in your mind than for someone who like me believes the universe is filled with sentient life.
If anything I would think those who think like me would make the wiser choises for survival, such as colonizing other planets, building space stations, building starships for defense, etc. People with your mindset on the other hand would more likely remain on Earth with their heads stuck in sand, believing there's nothing out there, believing you're so special that you must have been created by a god and will be taken care of by that god.
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