Originally posted by kindred

What PCSOs can do:

* Issue fixed penalty notices for littering, breach of dog control orders and cycling on a footpath.

Under English Common Law, you have the right to be free from any fine or forfeture without a fair trial. What this means is that unless you give consent, no one can give you a spot fine.

This applies to any fine the PCSO's, Police or any other person tries to issue you. If you do refuse consent, there is a chance you may well be arrested but then the burden of proof is on them to show you did commit a crime and take you to court. This also works if they arrest you and try to let you off with a caution or "fixed penalty notice".

If they have proof, then you may find yourself in front of a Magistrate or Judge, but at least then you make the buggers work and they have to prove you did something wrong.

I use this one often, most recently when soemone tried to fine my missus for not having a train ticket. She did have, but left it on the train by accident and the jobsworth wouldn't have any of it. The Police got involved as she tried to leave and the train staff tried to issue a Penalty fare Notice. They asked her to sign the slip, I told her to refuse, which she did.

They tried to threaten us with further penalties viw letters, but I've had a stern conversation with them to advise that consent wasn't given to be fined and she wasn't arrested and charged, so we will not be apying any fine they send us.

On top of that, the onus is on them to prove she was even there, let alone didn't have a ticket, which is obviously impossible as no arrest was made or any evidence taken. so it won't stand up in court.

Originally posted by kindred
* Require name and address where they have reason to believe a person has committed a road traffic or antisocial behaviour offence or is inpossession of illegal drugs.

And you have the right to refuse without fear of arrest. If they wish to take it further, they'd have to arrest you on suspicion of a crime, but that would cause issues if they did and you had done nothing wrong and you could sue for harrassment. Just make sure you leave your weed at home

Originally posted by Damien_uk
I agree that jackie smith has to go! Also we should get rid of hazel blears, I hate that woman!! When shes talking she never gives an answer and just seems to be lieing to me.

Actually while where at it we might as well sack the rest of them too.

Don't forget Harriet Harman while you're at it! That woman's wilfull incompetence just shines through in every decision she makes.

It seems Gordon Brown is throwing Jacqui Smith to the lions and forcing her to tour the studios. The Conservative party swept offices for bugs and it believed Damian Green was "honey trapped" by the Met.

Jacqui got a roasting by Andrew Marr this morning, car crash tv.

Gordon, from his statements, has not defended the Home Office or Jacqui Smith. Seems she may have to fall on her own sword to save General Gordo.

MPs have planned to protest to the Crown, when the Queen comes to Parliament.

Originally posted by infinite
Jacqui got a roasting by Andrew Marr this morning, car crash tv.

I wish I'd seen this.

Gordon, from his statements, has not defended the Home Office or Jacqui Smith. Seems she may have to fall on her own sword to save General Gordo.

Well, perhaps some good might come of this. I've no love for Smith at all.

Originally posted by jakyll
stumason

You seem to be under the impression that the police don't break the law and don't take advantage of it in anyway.

Something simple like drinking in designated areas becomes an issue when the police demand that all alcohol be handed over.This is an abuse of power on a small scale.It also happens on a larger scale.

Really? I would have thought that the fact I am protesting this aresst itself shows I don't think that. Not sure how we got from discussing our rights to you thinking I support the Police? Thats a bit of a stretch.

Of course the Police abuse their power, this and the BNP arrests show that. (I posted in that thread too)

I guess the BBC doesn't want the rest of the world see these clowns get their comupance. The link only works for you blokes across the pond. Would love to see the video. It saddens me to see the bastion of one of the first peoples governments be abused in this manner!

Zindo

Harriet Harman, Leader of the House of Commons, has - surprisingly - come out in support of Damian Green and suggesting there should be an investigation into the Home Office and the police.

How unique to find a minister criticising the behaviour of her own government

Originally posted by infinite
Harriet Harman, Leader of the House of Commons, has - surprisingly - come out in support of Damian Green and suggesting there should be an investigation into the Home Office and the police.

How unique to find a minister criticising the behaviour of her own government

I'm wondering whether she's hedging her bets regarding public and ministerial concern over this story. She might have thought it in her best interests to distance herself as best she can.

I wonder whether she kept that stab vest from her walkabout? Depending on how badly she's played this card, she might need it yet.

Some interesting developments have surfaced in the last 48 hours about this issue.

1) The civil servant involved, Christopher Galley, had stood as a Conservative candidate in a council election in 2004 (he came fifth). He also apparently applied for a job as a researcher, and Damian Green supposedly interviewed him but ultimately hired someone else.

2) It's getting pretty clear that neither the Prime Minister, Home Secretary, Speaker of the Commons or Leader of the Opposition were specifically informed about what the police were up to. I can't find anything to suggest that any of them knew Green was going to be arrested, or that the PM/Home Sec signed off on the operation. Apparently it was the UK's most senior civil servant, Gus O'Donnel (the Cabinet Secretary) who was informed and approved the police operation.

3) The police have been very heavy handed in this issue... they seem to be when something like this crops up. Remember Ruth Turner, the adviser who was arrested over the Cash for Honours issue? She was arrested by the police in the early hours of the morning... and subsequently all charges were dropped. The police seem to be rather fierce when it comes to political issues like this.

Nevertheless, I think it's important that the conduct of the police in this whole affair (regardless of whether Green is innocent or guilty) must be closely scrutinised. The role of senior politicians must also be examined (before we all start calling for resignations, let's first ascertain exactly what happened and why it happened). So far, there doesn't seem to be any authoritative information on what has happened and why - just newspaper speculation, most of which wouldn't stand up in court (which is exactly what this information has to be able to do).

Apparently the government thinks there are six moles leaking information... and some of it is potentially dangerous. There are rumours that last week's Pre-Budget Report (or parts of it) have been leaked before the Chancellor delivered it to the Commons. Given the delicate situation the markets face, I think that's highly irresponsible at this time.

This whole issue is very difficult... there are constitutional implications about the police and Parliament, and also the issues about civil servants and leaks. I don't think we've heard the last of this story... not by a long shot.