the reason I fear the God of the bible: science

Originally posted by reject

1. fornication (perverse sex) & promiscuosity
   
2. eating of blood & strangled beasts that weren't thoroughly bled
   
3. incestual relationships
   

I'd just like to point out that the negative effects of all of these things are science for one simple reason: observable fact. Everything you have listed could be seen and noted over the course of generations of families.

When you show me evidence that the Hebrews were all promiscuous , fornicating, blood drinking, and sleeping with their parents and siblings until one day God came down and told them not to, then I'll believe your assertion that it was God.

Until then, I'll have to believe that it was more likely learned by the tribes over time that this stuff was harmful to people.

I'll illustrate an example: When Europeans came to Africa, they landed in South Africa, which has a climate very similar to Europe. They very successfully farmed and developed the land, and then began to further expand their land. Also, they brought smallpox with them and decimated the local populations with disease.

When they moved farther north into Africa they crossed the Tropic of Capricorn and the climate changed fundamentally from a European climate to a tropical climate. When the Europeans began to settle around the rivers and the valleys, they wondered why the native Africans all settled in high, dry places, and in small groups. Soon, the settlers began to succumb to Malaria, their fields would not grow crops (because European crops need four seasons and the tropics only have wet and dry seasons), and their cattle all began to die off quickly.

However, the native Africans seemed unaffected by Malaria, they were able to grow their crops well, and the smallpox that killed southern Africans did not affect them. Why is this?

Over time, Africans learned to stay away from the rivers where Malaria carrying mosquitoes bred and fed, to live in small groups to isolate any spread of the disease, they learned which crops could grow in a dry/wet climate, and their bodies and their cattle were very resistant to the strains of Malaria at the time.

Smallpox, which originated from cattle in Africa, did not affect the Africans or their herds.

This is an example of a culture that probably predates Judaism that learned how to stay healthy and alive without the assistance of divine rules, and I believe the same can be applied to the standards you put forth in the list.


Thanks for taking the time to read my post. Good day

[edit on 28-11-2008 by Avenginggecko]

[edit on 28-11-2008 by Avenginggecko]

I have to admit . . . I haven't read through the whole thread, as I started to encounter scripture, which really has no place in debating the OP's contention . . . so, there you go.

To the OP:
Science wasn't proven correct by Talmudic law, neither is Talmudic law shown to be proof of the devine, due to current scientific beliefs.

The examples you provide are a result of the essential ablity, humans have, to recognize patterns and causality . . . even without understanding the actual "Why?" behind it. In times past, the negative consequences would have been attributed to being against "God"'s wishes or commandments. Discovery has shown us the true root of these negative consequences.

Check out this thread for a link to a study on that will better help explain this ablity/response:
Our need for recognizing patterns of causality

Syphilis was around before the bible and the methods used to spread were know to these people.

People who ate day old meat (that wasn't bled) died . . . early humans recognized this pattern.

Incest . . . you've got to be kidding right? Incest is rife throughout the bible and practiced liberally by ancient civilizations (especially by royalty). It's still practiced today by the elite families, undeveloped areas, and extremist/cultish religions and sects.

Originally posted by moonrat
The guy described in the bible as God is nothing more than a murdering psychopath.

agreed!

I also found the need to skip through the scripture posts also, as far as I am concerned, God is not indicative of a single religion, just some people seem to wish it that way.

Why would anyone fear their God? is not God supposed to be all Forgiving and Loving? those words tell me that my Goddess and God, would never condemn me to an eternal existance of suffering for anything, and I wouldn't for a second believe would ever wish my soul to suffer.

I've read Old and New Testaments, I'm a huge fan of the Old testament I have to admit, fantastic tales.

As for sins, sins are activities where morals come into play, you either have them or you don't, and if you want to hang yourself off a hook while wearing rubber and chewing on a tennis ball, as long as there are no unwilling victims, then why not? not for me to condemn, people like pedophiles, rapists, and any other kind of very objectionable activity, they are down to Human behaviour, the Human mind if you will.

And like most everyone else, I would condemn those people, even execute them, which was always the Pagan way, man dishing out justice for the protection of the Human Race and society, it's only when organised religion came along that people began to look upon God as something to fear, and fearing God, gave the so called leaders of these religions the power they still posses today, I think it is a little ironic, that the richest church in the world, causes much of the suffering it preaches to end.

In fact it was the work of the missionaries who went out and spoke the supposed word of the organised faiths, that a lot of the problems we see today came about, people didnt need to be told about Gods wrath, what they needed was to be left alone with their own faith which had served them well since Mankind first walked the Earth.

I've said it before, all religion started in the same place and will end there, it is only when people started to disagree and saw they could become powerful, that organised religion started, splitting time and time and time again, faction leading to faction etc, all that was needed was a powerful speaker, someone with a small amount of knowledge, or the ability to convince people they had spoken to God and God told them etc.

People became so afraid that to go against these people, became a sin in itself, and we all know from current world events, to fear something is to bow down before it and take what it gives out, ALL IN THE NAME OF God.

People and myself who follow a similar path to mine, we don't need to sit in a box to confess the things others feel are sins, if I have feelings of guilt, then I can find a place to be alone and ponder, even pray if I need to, I would rather sit in amongst the creations of the creator, the wonders and beauty that make people gasp in awe, IMO God from any faith would rather me sit amongst the wonders and beauty of nature, than a building made of manifactured epitaphs to the people who paid for it to be built, those are monuments not to any God, but to the person who built them.

I'm not dissing any faith here, not intentionally anyhow, let people live their own lives as they see fit, I'm simply sharing how my life is lived and that of many many thousands of others.

Not so long ago, I would be executed for what I have just said, and still would in some countries.

reply to post by noobfun

king ship passed through step sons .... a novel idea

In the Western world, Roman world, and some other cultures of the time yes, this is true.

But JEWISHNESS has always been passed down by the MOTHER. If your mother is Jewish, you are considered Jewish.

If your Father is Jewish but your Mother isn't, it is more of a "choose" kind of deal. But if it runs on your Mother's side, it is irrefutable, genetically, and according to Jewish custom.

So there. Mary being of David completely fulfills the prophecy..

Plus it does kind of fulfill the whole concept of the SONS of Jacob. and the SONS of Israel .. its always talking about the sons .. multiple sons. Only mothers birth sons.

[edit on 11/28/2008 by runetang]

>>I know, I'm a simple person but doesn't this just make you wonder?

Judges 1:19
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Is iron some kind of Hebrew kryptonite? That would make it pretty difficult for God to defend us against swords, bullets, and nukilar missiles.

Op this thread is basically just a repeat of Did you know (many) scientists fear the Bible? that was started a while back. In that thread I went into great deal about sepparating out what is true "science" that needs experimentation to confirm and what is observable patterns. your examples fall under the second catagory.


Why do we always assume that ancient men were stupid?

Why do we assume that they woudlnn't correlate genital warts appeareing after intercourse with sexual transmission, or diseases coming after eating meat with bleeding the animal, or deformed babies with incestuous relationships?

It really doesn't take a supreme God to point these things out; they would be easily observable within any group of people.

Now, if you could show me a verse that plainly (that is, without having to get into any bible codes or obscure translations or anything of that sort) tells me something like the chemical composition of a sugar molocule, the angle of the orbits at which the Earth orbits the sun, or the tempurature at which sand turns to glass, then I might be impressed, but so far, no one's been able to show any evdence of that sort.

[edit on 28-11-2008 by asmeone2]

[edit on 28-11-2008 by asmeone2]

reply to post by runetang


I believe you are right. Paul was both a Roman citizen and a Jew. I believe his father was Roman and his mother a Jew.


Peace
Grandma

Originally posted by runetang

So there. Mary being of David completely fulfills the prophecy..

Plus it does kind of fulfill the whole concept of the SONS of Jacob. and the SONS of Israel .. its always talking about the sons .. multiple sons. Only mothers birth sons.

ok now show me where it says mary is a direct decendant and claims lineage that way?

and show me where he claims geneology to david that way?

and then read luke 3:23 onwards

he claims his blood ancestry through joseph who isnt his dad

which means jesus is a liar so not the messiah unless lying is a godly trait or not the messiah and explains why someone needed to make an extra return trip to fulfil all the prophecy he decidd not to the first time

reply to post by reject

reject:

By the phrase "existence of God" we are referring at least to the existence of an Infinite Person who was the creator and is the sustainer of all things.

Belief in the existence of God is a phenomenon which occurred among persons in all times and places. I believe the source of the universally experience believer in God's existence are in three basic answers. (1) intuition; (2) reasoning; and (3) divine revelation handed down by tradition.

(1) Intuition: By intution I mean knowledge being gained by the the inherent activity of the mind giving rise to important insights. This is to be distinguished from knowledge gained by external instruction, internal reasoning or personal experience. It is a source of knowledge sometimes known as "first truths" or innate knowledge. A. H. Strong stated that "a first truth is a knowledge which, through developed on occasion of observation and reflection, is not derived from observation and reflection." The mind is so constituted that its nature is to recognize certain things as true without the need or proof or instruction. Human intuition is able to perceive truths of the senses of physical circumstances and of the moral nature/

I believe the great truths of God, moral obligation and future existence are known intuitively and are questioned only when the mind is influenced by the abstractions of speculative theories. Persons perceive and act in response to the great truths of intuition without first reasoning about them. Every act we do requires the assumption of important substance. Like when I write with a ink pen I demonstrate my belief in (1) substance in which the pen exists, (2) space, in which the substance exists, (3) a personal reality without which the pen could never write, (4) time, the context only within which anything can happen and (5) causation, a purposeful will from which all creative accomplishment is impossible.

The fundamental idea of God should be and can be broadened and clarified by careful reasoning, but only by a supernatural revelation can we have accurate knowledge of the nature and will of God. It is a fact of history that the vast majority of people have been religious and have acknowledged their belief in a superior being or beings. Such belief was characteristic of the Egyptians, Babylonians, Syrians, Greeks, Romans and other past and present. The necessity to man of the idea of a personal God has been well demonstrated in the history of the great world religions. It is reasonable to believe that the idea of God is a "first truth" because of its importance in determining moral obligation and man's present and eternal welfare. The idea of God must be available to all alike, not merely to those who are fortunate to be taught about him. It is assumed as being a truth already known and accepted that the opening verse of the Bible names God as the Creator, but does not want to introduce him.

The theory that our idea of God came by a process of evolution from a primitive fear of imaginary spirits in material objects (idols made of rocks) is a groundless assumption. According to the most dependable authorities the earliest religions of mankind were purely monotheistic and did not believe in more than one God. Our mind does not wait for some logical process of reasoning. When the proper conditions exist, the idea "flashes on the soul with the quickness and force of an immediate revelation." So then the unbeliever becomes a believer. I believe the know that God exists is necessary to have some idea about What God is and the intuition that God exists also gives us some idea about God's nature.

The argument for the Divine existence is based on the fact of causation. Regarding the universe in its present form as an effect, it reasons that is must have a sufficient cause. Because something cannot come from nothing, and something now exists, therefore something existed prior to that which now presently exists. God existed before there was something.

The evidences supporting Christianity should be studied impartially and honestly. The subject is too important to be studied with prejudice.

Oh well, some food for thought

Grandma

Originally posted by ATruGod
I fear "IT" as all it wants is for us to "Bow Down and Be Loyal"!

If "IT" is so all forgiving why does Hell exist?

In order to be forgiven you must sincerely want to be forgiven. If you don't believe in a God how can you sincerely want to be forgiven by God?

reply to post by reject



The "God" of the Bible is less real then the Real God. The "God" of the bible can be associated with the "Real God" however understanding of the real God can never fully be capture in the human mind before the times of the "Christ".

The "God" of the bible is a nationalistic symbol used as a driving force to put a semi-sudo-understanding of the history of the planet and the search for God along the spiritual journy.

The Real "Our Father" creator God is much cooler!

Jesus came as a man among men, born of woman and man, but the people of the day turned "Jesus" into a mythological icon to serve as a new nationalistic symbol.

Get to know God any way you can, but always search for clearer understanding.

Originally posted by reject
4,000 years ago...before man had any notions about pathogens, stress hormones, and genomes something or someone was making sure we don't screw ourselves too much...

You inadvertently answered your own question. By definition, people did have a "notion" about pathogens, stress, hormones and genomes. What we didn't have was a method of inquiry, which could specify the mechanisms to which these "notions" are attributable. We've always had an idea of what is bad for the body, and what is bad for society. It has been transmitted through culture for thousands of years, and even though most of our culture is riddled with unsubstantiated claims and myths, it is true that they all contain a shred of relevance. The fact is all those things you have mentioned have been removed from society through a process of "natural selection of the sort that culture permits". Taking action against those that did those things was best for the survival of a population that was really always living on the verge of either disaster, conquest, disease, drought or famine.

People often misinterpret the simplest messages left by our forebears, as definitely literal beliefs. We overlook history because we think those involved were either simple, or stupid. In fact, our psychology has barely changed for the past two hundred thousand years our species has existed. For all that time, there were people just like you and me. There were highly gifted individuals no doubt, some probably comparable to the likes of Tesla or Hawking. Although their setting was different, they adapted their intellect to their circumstances. We shouldn't be certain that our ancestors were incapable human beings, or that they lacked the foresight of their rationalizations. Things were different then, as they are now.

Take what you can from the Bible and then move on. Don't worry about being subject to the ignorant rationale of Bible-thumping lunatics. Ignore them. They're the ones that suffer from referencing all their life's thoughts and experiences from a single book. If they attempt to oppress or subvert you, then it is your duty to use your God given freedom of speech to put them in their place, forgive, forget and focus your intellect on something of greater value. It's comforting to know that they aren't as powerful as the "light" they claim to command; they aren't conduits for the one true message, and their God doesn't favor them above anyone else. They definitely aren't as numerous as they would like you to believe.

[edit on 29-11-2008 by cognoscente]

[quote=Grandma]Belief in the existence of God is a phenomenon which occurred among persons in all times and places.

-my bolded text-

And how are you sure of this?

It cannot be fact since time of man is longer than written word. If you are going to proclaim that the earth is approx. 6000 years old, then I won't bother with scientific viewpoints because it wouldn't do much good since you believe something to be true when it logically and physically it isn't the case.

reply to post by reject

I know, I'm a simple person but doesn't this just make you wonder?

No, not really. Just because ancient man knew to avoid certain hazards does not mean a divine source inspired them based on an omnipotent knowledge of the universe. It simply meant that they may have known of a simple cause and effect relationship that existed. It doesn't mean they would have known WHY. Knowing the why is rather important as it allows you to deal with the problem through more direct and effective means that mere avoidance.

Besides, considering just how staggeringly damned neared the entire bible has gotten wrong about the nature of the universe and how it operates - I really see no reason to consider it inspired by any sort of omnipotent being. An omnipotent being who created the universe would know about the very genetics he created, and would not allow passages that refer to the showing of striped patterns to a pregnant cow in order to produce striped calves to be put in his book.

[edit on 29-11-2008 by Lasheic]

Originally posted by reject
here's a book that was arguably started to be written some 4,000 years ago.

At its heart was the concept of a God that forbade (among other things):

1. fornication (perverse sex) & promiscuosity
   
2. eating of blood & strangled beasts that weren't thoroughly bled
   
3. incestual relationships
   

science later bears out that:

1. leads to STDs that could be life threatening
   
2. as an animal is killed it releases stress chemicals into its blood that are toxic and that the majority of pathogens are in it
   
3. leads to abnormalities
   

4,000 years ago...before man had any notions about pathogens, stress hormones, and genomes something or someone was making sure we don't screw ourselves too much...

I know, I'm a simple person but doesn't this just make you wonder?

Nothing wrong with being a "simple" person. Indeed, those are the consequences of not following those particular laws.

Many are called, few are chosen.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.
Heaven is real. Hell is real.
At the time of death you will find out. Dont wait till then. Your time is now.

frank o

reply to post by aero56


i agree

id rather meet and spend time with a simple person with a question and a mind to undertsand anyday

then a person unwilling to quesiton who knows the answer to everyting because they insist it is what the believe dispite all the evidence

unfortunatley science breeds many of the first and religeon breeds many of the second

if only science could be boiled down to such a simple idea we could convert the masses without them needing to really think about what they are bieng told as the mystery makers of religeon do

the mystical love mystery and try to keep it one, scientists love a mystery it gives them somthing to do - as a smart man one said


[edit on 29/11/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
In order to be forgiven you must sincerely want to be forgiven. If you don't believe in a God how can you sincerely want to be forgiven by God?

why should i seek forgivness from a bieng so flawed in his expectations and so flawed in his power that he made me this way, apparently very flawed

he should be seeking my forgivness for his failings

to punish someone for doing somthing you have forced them to do is the height of hipocracy and cruelty and blind stupidity

he better make sure its a dam good appology!

[edit on 29/11/08 by noobfun]