the reason I fear the God of the bible: science

reply to post by spy66


But of course 'time' has not always existed has it. Time is a dimension, 1 of 11 that was produced in the big bang. So "eternal" and "omnipresent" become completely useless terms when time is removed from the picture. Time doesn't have to exist for singularities to exist because singularities made time and all the other dimensions.

Everything formed of energy and matter (which is essentially the same thing) requires dimensions to exist, but there are things that just don't.

[edit on 18/12/2008 by Good Wolf]

Matter.
We cant have matter with out time,because when would you put it into a dimension? It would never happen if we dont have the essence of Time.
With out time you will have no action or reaction. Beacuse there would be no Matter to creat time. No Time No Action

Matter has to be finite. That means it has to have a beginning. Because Matter cant act with out time and time cant exist without Matter. In other words Matter cant be Eternal or infinite.

So where dose everything come from if it isn't Eternal or infinite. Dose things just pop out from nowhere and becomes everything. That dosent sound logic at all unless there is a creator behind it.





[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by spy66


But i never said there was matter without time did I. Matter-energy requires space-time to exist, space-time began with the big bang. You're not getting these concepts at all, you're not wraping your mind around the idea of dimensionless existence.

[edit on 19/12/2008 by Good Wolf]

Originally posted by spy66
Lets see them debunk this one

Who created God. Lets try and explain with some common sense and logic

well as you cant prove god exists you also cant prove anyone created him so logic cant be applied to either

The question really dosent make sense. Have can God be created. He wouldent be God if he was created by something or someone else . Because then his creator would be God over him.
So God must have always existed.

thats not logic thats justification, first youd have to prove he exists and then could apply logic

logic applies to what is, until god is proven to exist you cant apply logic to the problem, which is why we apply logic to the bibles deffinition of god becasue that deffinition exist in the pages of the bible

Now you wonder have could God always exist. And where did he come from. Well if he always existed he didn't come from anywhere. He was always there.

but where was he to be 'there' if he hadnt created any place to be?

if he was somewhere before he created anywhere then someone else must have created the somewhere for him to be (applying logic to the statement again not to god)

Now have is that possible.

it frnakly isnt

A question comes to mind:

Either everything came from nothing. "Which is impossible". Common sense.

but inst that what the bible says?

Or something must have always existed to create everything that is created.
You have no other choice so what is it!

well the big bang says this one

it says our universe as we know it came from a singularity but makes no comment on how the singularity was formed it doesnt say there was never a nothing

and this still doesnt prove a god exists just that there was somthing that changed to become everything which the bigbang covers and as thats got more evidence the god ill stick with that

Did everything come from nothing. (That's impossible)

i agree no abracadabra the heavens appear no abracadabra the earth appears thats is impossible and silly

Something always existed and created all that is created.

yes ^_^ we dont know in what form it was but around 14billion years ago it was in a singularity form

We always like to use logic to explain everything. So which one of these is logic to you!!

the one that doesnt say an always existing magic man that made everything appear from nothing while he was somewhere that couldnt exists

My common sense and logic tels me that.
Have can something create something or everything out of nothing! Have is that logic or natural or even possible !

spot on but thats pretty much describes the bibles account

So if your on the side of logic you would understand that something had to to be able to create everything. And surly what ever created everything surly always existed. Again thats common sense.

ummm no

somthing created everything, but that somthing didnt always necessarily exist it could have been a very different somthing earlier

So something has always existed. Would that be our god ?

not unless you pray to a quantum singularity that no longer exists

you see the logic applies just as well to the bigbang as to god but the big bang still has more evidence so still no reason to have a magic man

and the god was just there, well where was that if he hadnt created anything question applies


[edit on 19/12/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by spy66
Lets go on and educate you a bit further.

Lets figure out what always existed. Because you would surly comment on that.

You would probably say that if something always existed then maybe the universe, time Mather and space always existed. And you would take God out of the picture.

well we know time and space hasnt always existed ... but lkets see where this rabbit hole leads

But here is the problem with that.

we already know its wrong?

To claim that something is "Eternal" Always existed or will always exist. Is to apply the property of infinity to the universe.

the universe isnt infinate

So lets try to apply infinity or Eternity to Matter,Time and Space. And if i can tell you that Matter,Time ans Space could not be Eternal or infinite. That would mean that they are created by something that is not made out of Matter,Time and Space.

not really it just means they came from somthing that bundled up all matter into a singularity, with all matter and energy condensed there would be no time

but that doesnt mean it always bundled like that just that thats how it was 14 billion years ago

Which would mean that they would have the property of God. Being immaterial,Eternal,Omnipresent.

well as that singularity ceased to be and it was never all knowing all seeing or all powerful then not really

Ok lest take Time.
Time is the measure of changes in Matter.

If we bring Infinity into "time" when did it start! You couldent tell could you, becuase it would be infinite in the past as well. The past would never have a beginning. Have and when would time start?
You cant have an infinite amout of finite things. Because thats not logical or natural. Thats common sense.

yes it is but your argument isnt your assuming to much such as infinity exists that tehre ever was a point when there was nothing

So we know that time had a beginning,because we know that time couldn't have had a infinite time before right now. Because there couldent have been a infinite amount of changes before right now. We know that there has been a serten amount of Time (Time is the messure of changes in matter) until now. We dont know the exact time but we are saying that creation started some 4 billion years ago.

who is?

4 billion? the earths older then that

and there very well could have been time before all matter became condensed into the singularity, your making assumptions that arnt supported again

and again this still doesnt prove anything

Originally posted by spy66
Matter.
We cant have matter with out time,because when would you put it into a dimension? It would never happen if we dont have the essence of Time.
With out time you will have no action or reaction. Beacuse there would be no Matter to creat time. No Time No Action

squash all matter into a singularity the matter is unable to change so no time exists, the singularity becomes unstable matter starts to react, time begins, the pressure builds up until the singularitys forces can no longer hold all the matter in a compact form, it overpowers the singularity in an epic reaction casuing a massive wave which spreads carrying the matter with it into the now forming universe(the universe after all is just the matter from the singularity spreading from its source point)

Matter has to be finite. That means it has to have a beginning. Because Matter cant act with out time and time cant exist without Matter. In other words Matter cant be Eternal or infinite.

So where dose everything come from if it isn't Eternal or infinite. Dose things just pop out from nowhere and becomes everything. That dosent sound logic at all unless there is a creator behind it.

see your making the same assumption again that there was a point when there was nothing

science doesnt say this, anyone with the slightest understanding of the bigbang doesnt say this

the amount of matter is finite but matter is energy and energy is indestructable it just changes from one form to another, so while matter may not be infinate what it is made of could loosley be called eternal but still not infinate as there is only so much energy in the universe


and again this still doesnt prove anything let alone a specific deity exists

and may ask why no answer to these questions? its not very nice to ignore peoples questions

but why not allah or buddah or chrishna or the forest spirits or ancetor spirits or zeus?

they all have exactly the same amount of evidence so why discount them but not god? why not worship one of those instead? or all of them just be sure?

I'd like to see all this mayhem you accuse God of, certainly not since He sent His Son to die for us. You guys want to harbor over the Old Testament, that's fine if that's what you are drawn to, and I don't begin to be able to explain the reasons God did what He did; the fact is I know God exists and everything He has ever done is part of a greater plan that has a wisdom we cannot begin to fathom. God tried to make a covenent with you when He gave His Son for you. And yes according to God's Word all those who reject Him and His Son will be in a lake of fire for eternity. You had so many chances to save yourself from it but you refuse.

It's like you are angry at God for what He did in the first part of history. but you don't believe in Him. So when you stand at judgement day, will you still be angry because He DOES exist? Knowing you threw away chance after chance to be reconciled with Him?

Yes I have mentioned condemnation in hell, because as a Chrisitan I can't just talk about the good parts. But for me, the good parts are all that's ahead for me. I will have trials and tribulations in this life, but not in the life to come and that is where I place my greatest hope, as this life on earth is but a vapor compared to eternity. This life is where we determine our eternity, emphasis on WE.

One of you guys said a couple of days ago that I shouldn't just read the good parts of the Bible. By the same token, you shouldn't just read the "bad parts" --- you choose to do so though, read my lips, you choose, God won't condemn you, you condemn yourself.

By the way, what do you guys do for Christmas? Do people buy you Christmas gifts? Do you give Christmas gifts or does your family call you Scrooge? Just curious.

[edit on 19-12-2008 by Bombeni]

reply to post by Bombeni


I agree.

Some people just dont have common sense and some people even deny their own. They just believe in what other say or what ever they can see.

So why argue with ignorance.

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by Bombeni

 

I agree.

Some people just dont have common sense and some people even deny their own. They just believe in what other say or what ever they can see.

So why argue with ignorance.

I know it gets pretty frustrating spy66, but as a Chritian I have to do the best I can to dilute the blasphemy they write on these public forums about our Lord and Savior. I'm not trying to convince them to repent because they seem to know the Bible pretty well and are capable of making up their own minds, but there are others who may read these threads and be influenced by the satanic nature of some of these posts. We have to do what we can. Remember the apostles and the countless martys who have died for Christ.

Originally posted by spy66
Now you wonder have could God always exist. And where did he come from. Well if he always existed he didn't come from anywhere. He was always there.

Yep. That's the commonly accepted hypothesis ...

Originally posted by spy66
Either everything came from nothing. "Which is impossible".

How do you know that it's impossible?
lol...
Perhaps it's impossible for 'nothing' to exist.
Perhaps our idea of 'nothing' is impossible.

Originally posted by spy66
Or something must have always existed to create everything that is created.
You have no other choice so what is it!

Infinity is also 'impossible' to human logic as we live in a finite universe .
It's a paradox either way.
However, I do believe that something 'always' existed but not in the sense that you're thinking of.
A multiverse of infinity could have always existed as it would be outside our deminsions of time - so time then becomes irrelevant.
Why do you need a God?
Explain that to me lol...
Or is it just your assumption that either there was 'nothing' that became something or else the Jewish God must be accurate? lol

Originally posted by spy66
We always like to use logic to explain everything. So which one of these is logic to you!!

Both and neither, depending on the theory.
However, God is on the illogical side of the fence, because there's nothing to suggest that he exists. There's still no logical reason to believe in any creator despite your best efforts.

Originally posted by spy66
So something has always existed. Would that be our god ?

Something has 'always' existed from our perspective of time, as time came after, and whatever was before would be outside our perspective of time, and therefore ireachable.

[edit on 19-12-2008 by TruthParadox]

Originally posted by spy66
If we bring Infinity into "time" when did it start! You couldent tell could you, becuase it would be infinite in the past as well. The past would never have a beginning. Have and when would time start?
You cant have an infinite amout of finite things. Because thats not logical or natural. Thats common sense.

Our universe does have a beginning, and therefore, so does time...

Originally posted by spy66
So we know that time had a beginning,because we know that time couldn't have had a infinite time before right now. Because there couldent have been a infinite amount of changes before right now. We know that there has been a serten amount of Time (Time is the messure of changes in matter) until now. We dont know the exact time but we are saying that creation started some 4 billion years ago.

So...
How does that support the God Hypothesis?

Originally posted by Bombeni
One of you guys said a couple of days ago that I shouldn't just read the good parts of the Bible. By the same token, you shouldn't just read the "bad parts" --- you choose to do so though, read my lips, you choose, God won't condemn you, you condemn yourself.

But what do the bad parts say?
You admit there are bad parts of the Bible, but what do they say?
They contradict nearly every doctrine or philosophy in the "good parts".
God is supposed to be the same "yesterday, today, and forever", but he's much different in the OT than in the NT.
It's not only the contradictions in the Bible that made me an atheist, it's the arguments we have against God which you enjoy ignoring.

Apparently you think it's justified that someone should suffer an eternity of torture simply because they didn't believe in something which has no evidence.
And if that's the case, then I pitty you.

I would think that "overflowing mercy" could do better than that - maybe my mercy is just more overflowing than your Gods...

Originally posted by Bombeni
By the way, what do you guys do for Christmas? Do people buy you Christmas gifts? Do you give Christmas gifts or does your family call you Scrooge? Just curious.

I can't speak for the others, but I myself will have a "holly jolly Christmas".
So how is the 'ignoring the arguments and moving on to pointless questions which you believe will demoralize atheists', going for you?
Not very good, methinks .

The word God is our definition of a creator.
Our Definition of a creator is that "He" has to be Eternal or infinite. He has no beginning and no end.
Because only something that is Eternal or infinite could create. Because who ever created had to of always been there.

I guess that scientists could come up with a different name for God or the source of our beginning. But i dont think it would change the facts. Only the name.

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by spy66
Some people just dont have common sense and some people even deny their own. They just believe in what other say or what ever they can see.

Then answer me why your evidence (even ignoring the logic we put forth) would be evidence of God's existence?
I already believe there was something infinite which has "always existed", as it would be outside our bounds of time.
Look up parallel deminsions and the 'multiverse'...
Why is God needed?
Why is he probable?

You said " Lets see them debunk this one" as if your argument meant anything or held any weight.
Then when we did debunk it (with ease I might add), you call us ignorant?

Originally posted by spy66
So why argue with ignorance.

Because it's fun.
And if you're not having fun, then you must not be arguing against the ignorant .

Originally posted by TruthParadox

Originally posted by spy66
Some people just dont have common sense and some people even deny their own. They just believe in what other say or what ever they can see.

Then answer me why your evidence (even ignoring the logic we put forth) would be evidence of God's existence?
I already believe there was something infinite which has "always existed", as it would be outside our bounds of time.
Look up parallel deminsions and the 'multiverse'...
Why is God needed?
Why is he probable?

You said " Lets see them debunk this one" as if your argument meant anything or held any weight.
Then when we did debunk it (with ease I might add), you call us ignorant?

Originally posted by spy66
So why argue with ignorance.

Because it's fun.
And if you're not having fun, then you must not be arguing against the ignorant

.

Ok ill say sorry for the statement i made. We do have the right to our own opinion. So i am sorry.

To answer you question: I cant because i dont see any logic in what you say, be-on what i self imaging or think. Maybe i am ignorant.

I am just using common sense to argue my opinion so maybe i am wrong. I cant prove anything so you have the right to tell me that i am wrong.





[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by noobfun

but it is its partial not conlusive but still partial

he was soo much closer then he thought he was

you see how they all start to add up

and the pile of evidence is building fast

bieng mostly or partially right

i know its partially proven but not enough to make the transition

its well on the way to theory status

remember 70% right is still 70% accurate 70% correct 70% proven

There seems to be a re-occuring theme to your replies.
The evidence may lead a logic driven person toward this line of thinking
Bottom line is it hasn't happened, is is not fact

Originally posted by noobfun

Originally posted by spy66
Matter.
We cant have matter with out time,because when would you put it into a dimension? It would never happen if we dont have the essence of Time.
With out time you will have no action or reaction. Beacuse there would be no Matter to creat time. No Time No Action

squash all matter into a singularity the matter is unable to change so no time exists, the singularity becomes unstable matter starts to react, time begins, the pressure builds up until the singularitys forces can no longer hold all the matter in a compact form, it overpowers the singularity in an epic reaction casuing a massive wave which spreads carrying the matter with it into the now forming universe(the universe after all is just the matter from the singularity spreading from its source point)

Then i say!!! who will SQUASH what. What source will do what you say here. It won't happen on it's own will it?
That's impossible.

Have can time create it self?

Have can Matter create it self?

It needs a source. Tell me what that source is. Because your are talking about a source that is doing something,but your not defying it.

Energy. Is a form of something that exists.
Can you put Eternal or infinity into the equation of energy?
Explain to me have that is possible without a external source.

What could make energy if it is Eternal or infinite!
What would make it have the form or life that it has if it didn't have a source or a beginning?
Nothing could of made it real or exist. So energy cant exist until it was created by something or a source.
So energy can only be finite meaning it has to be created by a source.
If not we wouldent know that energy even existed. Energy is a form of something. And something has to exist if not its not real. And if it dosent exist it cant do anything.





[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by TruthParadox

Originally posted by Bombeni
One of you guys said a couple of days ago that I shouldn't just read the good parts of the Bible. By the same token, you shouldn't just read the "bad parts" --- you choose to do so though, read my lips, you choose, God won't condemn you, you condemn yourself.

But what do the bad parts say?
You admit there are bad parts of the Bible, but what do they say?
They contradict nearly every doctrine or philosophy in the "good parts".
God is supposed to be the same "yesterday, today, and forever", but he's much different in the OT than in the NT.
It's not only the contradictions in the Bible that made me an atheist, it's the arguments we have against God which you enjoy ignoring.

Apparently you think it's justified that someone should suffer an eternity of torture simply because they didn't believe in something which has no evidence.
And if that's the case, then I pitty you.

I would think that "overflowing mercy" could do better than that - maybe my mercy is just more overflowing than your Gods...

Originally posted by Bombeni
By the way, what do you guys do for Christmas? Do people buy you Christmas gifts? Do you give Christmas gifts or does your family call you Scrooge? Just curious.

I can't speak for the others, but I myself will have a "holly jolly Christmas".
So how is the 'ignoring the arguments and moving on to pointless questions which you believe will demoralize atheists', going for you?
Not very good, methinks

.

The "bad parts" as one of you called them the other day---not me I was merely paraphrasing the juvenile term so you would recall what you had said---is the history of the world, recorded by men chosen by our Holy God. Maybe you missed it but I said I have no idea why things happened the way they did, it was part of God's plan and everything He does has a purpose, so I'm not about to start second-guessing Him. I refer to a scripture

"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known"

God wanted us to know the history of the world, but He also left us words such as this scripture, and so many other countless words of incredible wisdom, to help us along our way. When it is time for me to know the answers to all life's mysteries, IF it is ever time, God will reveal them to me.

So you celebrate Christmas? 364 days a year you blaspheme God and the Son He sent to save your soul, but on His birthday, you can set all that aside, long enough to what, open the gifts? How are these atheists ever going to gain respect and be taken seriously?

What a complete and utter washout.

reply to post by TruthParadox


TruthParadox:

You say that "hell" is a myth. Then why worry about it. If it is not real, then nothing else matters anyway, right. Why, keep on debating the fact if God exists or not. If hell is a myth, then you will not be punished. Or is there a small part of you that is not all that sure, just maybe, thses Jesus people are right. Then "what if?"

Peace to you,
Grandma

Merry Christmas (you do believe in Christmas don't you?)

In case I get a post or question, I will be gone for 2-1/2 weeks. '

Merry Christmas to all.