Most christians arent true christians!

Most christians arent true christians!

I've known this forever.

It's kinda obvious once ya think about it.

I see all your points, but it still doesnt make much sense to me. What would be the right way to follow christ? everyone still has a different opinion on it. if everyone is wrong then who can be right?

reply to post by Ghost147


You are correct that you have seen very few genuine christians for some of the reasons you state. In fact recent Barna polls have demonstrated that only about 4% of Americans even have a Biblical worldview. Having a Biblical worldview by the way is defined as:

he Barna Group is the leading conservative Protestant marketing research group providing information about the state of religion in the U.S. -- and in particular the status of Christianity and of its churches and denominations. 1

They defined a "biblical worldview" as being based upon a foundation of eight beliefs, that:

1. Absolute moral truths exist.
2. The Bible defines these absolute moral truths.
3. Jesus Christ lived a sinless life during his ministry on earth.
4. God created the universe and continues to rule it today. He is omnipotent and omniscient.
5. Salvation is a gift from God. It cannot be earned through good works or behavior.
6. Satan is real living entity.
7. Christians have an obligation to share the Gospel with the unsaved.
8. The Bible is accurate in all of its teachings 2

Barna Poll

Most who think they are christians will reject one or more of these points. Interestingly it turns out that those who claim they are christians offer no difference in their behavior with regards to all the social ills that plague America, including divorce rates, promiscuous behavior, gambling, drunken behavior etc. That is there is no difference unless you consider the very few who actually have a Biblical worldview. Those Biblical worldview christians actually exhibit statistical deviation in their 'righteousness' from the masses.

For me I would consider the Biblical worldview as baby christian 101. It's a mere starting point and can hardly imagine pretending to be a christian without this, but some do try. As a result of this poll it is apparent that the supposed christian countries in America and europe are in fact by percentage some of the least christian countries in the world. China's underground house church movement may involve as much as 10% of their population.

Thus I'm not surprised that China is being blessed whilst America continues to be cursed and is in great decline.

reply to post by Ghost147

The teaching on this is to "walk in the light (knowledge) you have" (from sermons I tend to agree with, not the Bible verbatim - see I John 1:7).

Christianity is a journey, not a destination. Every Christian is somewhere along their path, some just starting, others well on their way, still more somewhere in the middle. We may stumble in our journey, but so does everyone else. The trick is to get back on your feet, realize your error, and try to avoid that error in the future.

So when you see someone identify themselves as Christian, then do or say things that seem un-Christian, the problem more oft than not is that they do not yet understand, or that they simply made a mistake. Even Christians are human. Even Christians make mistakes. Not even Christians are perfect.

We understand that; it is one of the central tenets of our religion. No one is perfect, and no one can be perfect by themselves. Yet, we try. Sometimes we succeed for a while; more often we fail in some way. That's why we love Jesus so much, for we believe He forgives us when we stumble and err, just as He is willing to forgive anyone who simply asks. Forgiveness from humans is much harder to come by.

I hope that clears it up for you.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by Ghost147
I see all your points, but it still doesnt make much sense to me. What would be the right way to follow christ? everyone still has a different opinion on it. if everyone is wrong then who can be right?

Ghost, Opinions of man mean nothing compared with the opinions of God.The right way to Christ would be to follow his word to the best of our ability.We all have our own perceptions of What truth is, but the final area has to be the origin of which we have learned of Christ.........The Bible itself.

Originally posted by rikk7111
Ghost, Opinions of man mean nothing compared with the opinions of God.The right way to Christ would be to follow his word to the best of our ability.We all have our own perceptions of What truth is, but the final area has to be the origin of which we have learned of Christ.........The Bible itself.

That responce may have worked with someone who did believe in god, but your trying to convince a non-believer in the words of something they dont believe in. But i will have to argue that man has to interpret gods words, and if man cannot show their opinion on his words propperly then there is not reason to follow gods words. In otherwords, if man is always wrong, then why read the bible at all? we will only interpret it incorrectly. Right?

The redneck: So your saying that no one can truly be christian because its not a destination? but people can be better than others. Wouldnt that make christianity pointless if no one can achieve it?

Originally posted by Ghost147

Originally posted by rikk7111
Ghost, Opinions of man mean nothing compared with the opinions of God.The right way to Christ would be to follow his word to the best of our ability.We all have our own perceptions of What truth is, but the final area has to be the origin of which we have learned of Christ.........The Bible itself.

That responce may have worked with someone who did believe in god, but your trying to convince a non-believer in the words of something they dont believe in. But i will have to argue that man has to interpret gods words, and if man cannot show their opinion on his words propperly then there is not reason to follow gods words. In otherwords, if man is always wrong, then why read the bible at all? we will only interpret it incorrectly. Right?

The redneck: So your saying that no one can truly be christian because its not a destination? but people can be better than others. Wouldnt that make christianity pointless if no one can achieve it?

Thanks for your reply Ghost, I can only say, that I regret that we as Christians have not lived a better example, in not emulating the God and Saviour we serve. Indeed man is far from perfect, as the world darkens may there be some who light the way. This has been a very respectful thread and I thank you for your unbiased response.

To quote Rumi:

All religions, all this, is singing one song.

reply to post by Ghost147

i am a christian and i understand/agree with what is in the bible. to be a christian is to belive in god and only god(no other idols) it is to put your faith in god and to love one another i could make list after list about what christians do but i dont have to post it here

reply to post by Ghost147

So your saying that no one can truly be christian because its not a destination? but people can be better than others. Wouldnt that make christianity pointless if no one can achieve it?

No, not at all. What I am saying is that no one can be perfect. Christianity does not require you to be perfect; instead it accepts that you are not. Where I attend church now, they say it very well: "Come as you are." The only requirements to be a Christian is to 1) believe that the Bible is true, and 2) desire to be a better person.

The former may sound a bit like institutional thought control to someone who is unfamiliar with Christianity, but in reality it is not. You can believe it is symbolic and still be a Christian. You can believe it is literal and still be a Christian. You can believe the OT is historical only and still be a Christian. You can believe it is a rough guide written for the Jewish people and still be a Christian. You can believe it has been mistranslated and still be a Christian.

In other words, all you really have to do is believe. That belief comes easier for some than for others, and I was one that needed to be shown a lot before I could accept it. If you are the same, all you need do is ask for the answers and be ready to listen to them when they arrive. In simple terms, a Christian is someone who is searching for truth, and believes Jesus has their answers. Not someone who attends church or practices rituals or behaves flawlessly.

I don't normally do this, and I apologize if it offends anyone. My suggestion to you, as someone who is truly curious (I hope I am reading you right), is to simply take a few moments in solitude. Bow your head, and ask this Jesus who you do not yet believe in to prove Himself to you. That's it; that's all you need to do. The proof you require will arrive, be it in the form of a post on ATS that suddenly makes perfect sense where it made none before, or a flash of inspiration into a problem you could never answer before, or someone you either do or don't know saying something that makes you realize things you never realized before.

If it doesn't arrive, you will have lost a few moments of time. No one will know except you that you tried this.

If it does arrive (which I know it will), just talk to someone about it, someone you feel comfortable with. A family member, a local preacher, a Christian friend, myself (via U2U), any Christian member here that you feel will be discrete and honest with you, or anyone else you think you should tell. They will be able to tell you what to do and where to go next, should you wish to go farther. Or not. Remember, this isn't some ceremony steeped in cultural tradition. It's not judgmental, as no one will be there when you first bow your head. No one will condemn you. It's not a catch or trap. It's a journey. Your journey.

TheRedneck

reply to post by bellla198
thank you i couldnt have said it better

Originally posted by bellla198
reply to post by Ghost147

 

i am a christian and i understand/agree with what is in the bible. to be a christian is to belive in god and only god(no other idols) it is to put your faith in god and to love one another i could make list after list about what christians do but i dont have to post it here

... sorry for this incredibly bland response, but you are completely wrong. Generally all religions believe in god(s). so your saying every religion is then christian? no. If you mean Jesus, then your also saying that Catholics and Mormons and Jehovah's witness' are just specifically christian as well because they all believe in Jesus? A belief in god does not make you christian, it makes you religious.

Redneck:

No, not at all. What I am saying is that no one can be perfect. Christianity does not require you to be perfect; instead it accepts that you are not. Where I attend church now, they say it very well: "Come as you are." The only requirements to be a Christian is to 1) believe that the Bible is true, and 2) desire to be a better person.

This brings me back to another question then. to be christian you have to believe in the bible. right? so what happens if you don't follow it at all? if you didn't believe in it so much to completely follow it, then you don't truly believe its true, which (by your church) means you aren't christian. right? Also, a desire to be a better person, i wouldn't consider a quality of Christianity alone, or any religion for that matter. Every single person in the world wants to further themselves as a person in some way, even subconsciously. Take for example a hobby, generally everyone has a hobby (and if not this can apply to anything else they do), they want to collect and succeed in a way they think is fun an excited. to further themselves as a person in their own way. that doesn't necessarily mean they are half way to Christianity.

Originally posted by grover

With Christianity grace was achieved through individual faith and charity with a focus on renunciation.

Grace is not something achieved, especially through faith and charity, we should be doing this regardless. Look into the meaning of the word translate as grace in both the Greek and Hebrew. Grace is the calling from God into truth, the undeserved favor we receive from God.

1C 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Did Paul deserve grace when he received it? No, we was actively destroying Christians, but the grace he received changed his life.

reply to post by Ghost147

Ok this has been bothering me for for-ever!

I have noticed more and more from day to day that there seem to be an increasing number of self proclaimed Christians that really don't actually believe in their own religion. This applies mostly to Christians because that's the main masses i see that do this (although i have my assumptions that other religions may be competing for this number of dis-belief subconsciously).

This doesn't surprise me.
2 Thess. 2:3 says this (parenthesis mine):
2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasy) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

reply to post by Ghost147

This brings me back to another question then. to be christian you have to believe in the bible. right? so what happens if you don't follow it at all? if you didn't believe in it so much to completely follow it, then you don't truly believe its true, which (by your church) means you aren't christian. right?

Firstly, let me apologize for taking so long to respond. Thanksgiving, you know, and although that fight I had with that evil turkey was long and hard, I am glad to say I emerged victorious in the end. *burp*

To your question: This is the thing that appears to be harder for non-Chrisians to grasp than any other. What happens is you get to know Jesus through your prayers, and the more you know Him, the more you realize just how much love and compassion and understanding there is in Christianity. I didn't read and follow the Bible (or attempt to) in order to become a Christian. I read and try to follow the Bible because I want to now that I know Jesus. That's not the teachings of some church either. It is now 11:00 AM on Sunday morning, and I am not in church. Instead I am sitting here on the couch with the TV on and my Bible at the ready, thinking about Jesus and what He wants me to do today and tomorrow. Maybe I'll get a message, and I will gladly change my course as He suggests. Maybe I won't, and I will continue on my present course. In neither case do the teachings of any church come into effect.

You see, it's not ritual or ceremony that identifies one as a Christian; it is the desire to live a life using the life of Jesus as a template. It's extremely personal. It's more of a friendship than a following. That's why I keep preaching tolerance and understanding: I have no say in what Jesus and someone else does. I simply try to do what He wants me to do.

No doubt you are aware that there are a few things which seem to be a constant among Christians, like the study of the Bible. That's not because such study is ritually required to wear the nametag and learn the secret handshake. It's because the path will invariably lead you to some extent in that direction. Christians read the Bible because they want to, not because they have to.

I'm sure you have heard the 'fire and brimstone' preachers too. I disagree with their approach to Christianity, and while I cannot in good conscience condemn them, for I do not know their heart, I do worry about them. The Jesus I know doesn't threaten me. He may warn me of something I am about to make a mess on, but most of the time I find Him picking me up after I have stumbled, smiling, and sending me off in a new direction, with Him walking right alongside in case I need anything.

That's a friend indeed.

TheRedneck