Iraq Afghanistan the Hidden Holocaust

While UK middle schools have recently been persuaded to create the position of designated Holocaust instructor one must wonder why it is so difficult to find accurate figures on civilian deaths in the wars being fought this moment.

A diligent attempt to find accurate figures for Afghanistan reveals...
Civilian Casualty Data

Summary:
Estimates of the number of civilians killed vary widely and must be treated with caution. Systematic collection of civilian fatality data only began in 2007. The United Nations is creating a civilian casualty database, but is not publicly accessible. Periodic updates can be found in Reports of the Secretary-General on peace and security in Afghanistan. The Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission (AIHRC) is also collecting data, but the efforts of both agencies are hampered by insecurity and a lack of resources. As a result, figures released by these agencies likely represent a substantial undercount. source:www.afghanconflictmonitor.org...

Figures for Iraq are more easily found...
www.justforeignpolicy.org...

Without a doubt the numbers killed by US actions including desert storm,
the 12 years of sanctions in Iraq and the current wars in Afghanistan and Iraq exceed 2 million and likely have reached 3 million or more.

People are jailed in Germany for questioning the number of jews killed by the 3rd Reich.

The number of people being killed as we speak seems generate far less concern.

Have I gone mad or is this not a complete travesty?

What good is remembering a holocaust 60 years past when a holocaust is happening RIGHT NOW!

edit to say Happy Thanksgiving

[edit on 27-11-2008 by marsha law]

Originally posted by marsha law


What good is remembering a holocaust 60 years past when a holocaust is happening RIGHT NOW!

I would admit the numbers are high but I seriously doubt 2 or 3 million

And comparing it to NAZI Germany? Come on there are no Death camps with smoke stacks going 24/7

I applaud your enthusiasm and it's ok to ask why/what/when

but keep your feet on the ground.
just my 2 cents

SLAY

it's certainly an interesting question but it is a slightly different situation to nazi germany. the nazi's carried out a form of industrial genocide which clearly isn't happening in the ME at the moment.

it's worth questioning the validity of the distinction, if the war in the ME doesn't conform to the industrial format, are the killings more acceptable? is it a reasonable comparison, is it reasonable to judge military action against the nazi's? should we set our lowest level of behavior as the levels that the nazi's reached?

to me, the only way to judge it is to ask ourselves what we would feel if our troops behaved at home as they behaved overseas. can the people whos countries belong to the coalition of the willing say they are happy that this is true.

[edit on 27/11/08 by pieman]

The reason for this post is to expose the double standard that is apparent regarding the historical (WWII) holocaust and the present day ongoing holocaust.

To question the former may land you in jail and to question the latter.....

"IRAQ: Lawsuit demands US reveal civilian deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan

Posted by warvictims on September 5, 2007

Lawsuit demands US reveal civilian deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan
Agence France Presse

A US civil rights group filed a lawsuit Tuesday demanding the American military release documents about civilians killed by US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, accusing the government of trying to hide the human cost of war......."source warvictims.wordpress.com.../

And does it matter how someone dies?

Dead is DEAD and all wars are factories of death.






edit for quot. marks


[edit on 27-11-2008 by marsha law]

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by marsha law


What good is remembering a holocaust 60 years past when a holocaust is happening RIGHT NOW!

I would admit the numbers are high but I seriously doubt 2 or 3 million

And comparing it to NAZI Germany? Come on there are no Death camps with smoke stacks going 24/7

I applaud your enthusiasm and it's ok to ask why/what/when

but keep your feet on the ground.
just my 2 cents

SLAY

Ok. Iraq 2003-2008 1,288,000
Iraq 1991-2003 est. 1,000,000 (Albright admits death of 500,000 children due to sanctions in 1996)nl.youtube.com...
Afghanistan 2001- 2008 ????
I would say the death toll is approaching 3 million.

Originally posted by marsha law

Ok. Iraq 2003-2008 1,288,000

Afghanistan 2001- 2008 ????
I would say the death toll is approaching 3 million.

It's pretty high but not 2 to 3 million!

1 person is too many in my opinion. Those numbers look bad but how are they counting them?

Do those numbers reflect Muslim on muslim violence?

Suni vrs Shia ?


As far as afgahnistan most of the fighting was done by afgahnistani troops against the talibon.

The American and EU troops have seen some heavy action but they did not fight the main battles.

reply to post by SLAYER69

I was including a conservative estimate of the first war in 1991 and the 12 years of sanctions.

The figures for the present war are from various sources given in the link on the first post.

I will find some evidence that the shia vs. sunni violence is mostly manufactured by the coalition troops if this thread prevails ,which I doubt.
Not much interest in real time holocausts it seems.

Remember that what is happening over there could well take place here.

FEMA camps and coffins are real.

war is a bad game, the reason i say is because its not like other games where you can be different then the opponent and describe actual differences. In war we say someone flew a plane into our building, that is terrorism, but when we blew up a city with a nuclear bomb that is justice. I've never heard the holocaust referred to as terrorism, and apparently being an arrogant american coke head is acceptable, i guess because of elvis. Well we had elvis as a president and apparantly that wasn't intimidating to terrorists, now we have tupac/tiger woods as a president, hes an interesting guy i guess but i don't think busting a freestyle on your enemies at a golf tournament is gonna lower these numbers

Originally posted by marsha law


Remember that what is happening over there could well take place here.

FEMA camps and coffins are real.

You dont take what you read here that seriously do you?
Anybody can make a youtube video

reply to post by SLAYER69

Information is much scarier when you find the real deal.

"On February 17, 2006, in a speech to the Council on Foreign Relations, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld spoke of the harm being done to the country’s security, not just by the enemy, but also by what he called “news informers” who needed to be combated in “a contest of wills.”

In 2002 Attorney General John Ashcroft announced his desire to see camps for U.S. citizens deemed to be “enemy combatants.”



THE SOLUTION

A Defense Department document, entitled the “Strategy for Homeland Defense and Civil Support,” has set out a military strategy against terrorism that envisions an “active, layered defense” both inside and outside U.S. territory. In the document, the Pentagon pledges to “transform U.S. military forces to execute homeland defense missions in the . . . U.S. homeland.” The strategy calls for increased military reconnaissance and surveillance.

The Washington Post reported on February 15, 2006 that the National Counterterrorism Center’s (NCTC) central repository holds the names of 325,000 terrorist suspects, a fourfold increase since fall of 2003. A Pentagon official said the Counterintelligence Field Activity’s TALON program has amassed files on antiwar protesters.

Shortly after Bush orchestrated 9/11, he issued "Military Order Number One", which empowered him to detain any noncitizen as an international terrorist or enemy combatant. Today that order extends to U.S. citizens as well." sourcewww.libertyforlife.com...

reply to post by marsha law


I do think this question needs more examination; I think when the smoke clears and we get an honest look into these wars a few decades from now, we are going to be horrified by the things that happened under the American flag.

SLAYER69 and Pieman:

I really don't think it matters whether the genocide was industrialized or not, or was official state policy, in Nazi Germany to draw a comparison here.

The people are dying by the thousands. They are beings starved, shot, admitidly not sent to gas chambers but pumped full of depleted uranium. The rhetoric used to villify Muslim Terrorists is very similar to what was used to vilify the Jews.

I don't see much difference; we are killing and toturing these people just the same.


Pet peeve of mine, though, the 6 Million figure did not just include Jews, I think a good 2 million of that was made up of Poles, Gypsies, "undesirable" social classes, and political enemies.

reply to post by asmeone2

"I do think this question needs more examination; I think when the smoke clears and we get an honest look into these wars a few decades from now, we are going to be horrified by the things that happened under the American flag."

Where I am going on this thread is to sound a warning that what is happening over there is likely to happen here.(USA)

The word REPENT is kicking around in my head a lot these days.
I don't think we will have the chance for that in a few decades.