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Evidence in Scripture disproving god once and for all

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posted on Jan, 13 2009 @ 03:42 PM
reply to post by Vehemens

Yes religion has killed for many centuries now. We need to remember though that it was not the Father who killed, but man who killed using the name of God as their shout for war. Religion was man made. Christianity was started by God. There is a difference. One follows whatever man dreams up and the other just makes a relationship with the Creator and simply tries to live in love to best way that they can in this world.


posted on Jan, 13 2009 @ 07:18 PM
reply to post by Grandma

And what makes you think Christianity comes from the true God? Any proof? I'll bet every other religion has the proof that their God is the true God.
And why would Christianity be the true one? God created a cult that went around burning people alive for example??? And if the wars and crimes in the name of religion are not what he intended why did he sent his son and create all this religion mess in the first place?? I believe God can see the future, in fact he writes it right?
Come to think of it, why did he created us in the first place, why did he gave us all these murderous impulses? Was he drunk or just retarded?
And why the 10 commandments? He didn't have time to finish us so he sent a firmware update?

What about other religions or fate? If everyone has evidence and believes their God exists what then?? Multiple Gods?

And who created God or the Gods? Their parents? Who of those Gods came first?

Who are the Gods of the animals? There are 2 million known species in our planet and it is believed that the unknown can reach up to 100million!!!! Jee, if they are God's creatures I bet I'm going to hell. I am a bug serial killer and used weapons of mass destruction on them!! Who am I to put an end to a God's creation? I'm going to hell!!!#!! :/

Wait a minute... and who are the Gods of alien creatures? Scientists now say that life on other planets is more common than we can possible imagine. They say that the elements to create life are already present in most planets and all it's needed is the right distance from their own Sun and other small factors. Scientists did the math and it is believed there are hundreds of thousands of intelligent species on the galaxies we can currently see with Hubble. Multiply that the zillion galaxies we can't even see and then multiply that by all the non intelligent species. You get more species than all the grain of sand on Earth.

Somehow, I'm positive the aliens are not Christians, Jews or Muslims, so how many Gods exist really? And why would God even care for a grain of sand named "Humans" when he has zillions of other better creations out there...

Just some thoughts.

posted on Jan, 14 2009 @ 12:11 AM

Originally posted by nj2day
reply to post by dooper

Than you are ignoring the OP.

just answer one question for me then...

Can god create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?

Which is longer: a line? or a ray?

posted on Jan, 14 2009 @ 03:38 AM

Originally posted by ManWithGrace89

Which is longer: a line? or a ray?

a ray the lateral line only travels mostly down the bodys length not completley

with manta ray bieng the laegest known, and still longer then its lateral line

care to give a better deffinition to the question?

[edit on 14/1/09 by noobfun]

posted on Jan, 14 2009 @ 05:05 AM
actually a line is longer than a ray, mathematically speaking that is.
the definition of a line is 'A geometric figure formed by a point moving along a fixed direction and the reverse direction'.
the definition of a ray is 'A straight line extending from a point' after that it even says that a ray is also known as a half-line.


posted on Jan, 14 2009 @ 11:11 AM
reply to post by Ironclad

Do you see how evasive it is? You are Wicca and Wiccans are demonized as associated with the Devil especially when Hollywood produces movies like that awful one with Sandra Bullock about Wiccans that does have an evil side to it. You do not like the stereotype that the Christians gave you about being Wiccan. However, in the next few paragraphs of your post you stereotype Christians. The stereotype being of course that they are all Bible pounding, paranoid people. Please do not take this as an attack on you, Wicca or anything else I am just saying how easy it is to do by using your post as an example. You didn't like it when they stereotyped your Wiccan religion but you go on to stereotype Christians. It is a very slippery slope.

The original topic though is based solely on the Bible. I don't believe the Bible is the sole basis for belief in Christianity. In fact, in all likelihood it could not have been because of the time gap between the rise of Christianity and the compilation of the Bible. If the Bible is the only path to belief in Jesus or God, how did the early Christians have such strong faith that they were willing to die for it? Let's go a step further, even after the Bible was compiled, the people of that time couldn't just send it to the printer and make 100 copies of it. There is still a tremendous gap between when the Bible was compiled and when it landed in every lodging care of the Gideons.

OP - It has been a while since I did GR but at the time 9-dimensional space was generally accepted as the limit - not 11 or 12. If this is something new please feel free to update me but my current understanding is there are 9D.

posted on Jan, 14 2009 @ 09:20 PM
reply to post by Vehemens

I have proof of God for me. It is nothing you would accept nor do I think you should accept it, however for me personally I have had experiences that have given me faith in God. When you ask for proof I can honestly say yes but again it is something personal and not the scientific proof I believe you are asking from Grandma. I think there is a lot of circumstantial evidence for God however. I have to add that I am a rational thinker as well, a Physicist by training and I teach Physics. So, I understand the scientific level of proof.

First you call Christianity a cult. It is not. Second you mention people being burned alive by Christianity. That is where the crux of the problem is with religion. People have done terrible things in the name of religion. That is it though, people have made those mistakes. The people who carried this out may have had good intent or they may have had bad intent we will never know. For example, brilliant chemists made an anti-depressant based on epinephrine re-uptake inhibition. These pills were aggressively marketed to doctors and they prescribed the pills. We will never know the intent of the chemists who made this pill. Their intent could have been to help humanity or an purely selfish evil intent of just making money. Now years later when patients try to stop taking the pills they experience parathesias and are effectively permanently addicted to the anti-depressants. This example is relevant because in your example you are basically saying Christianity is worthless because of the acts of a few people that harmed/killed others. Using my example, the comparable logic is that we should throw out chemistry because the discovery of a few people caused harm to other people. In both examples we can not judge the intent of the people causing the harm. People can use chemistry to cause harm (above example or chemical warfare if you prefer). People can use Christianity to cause harm. However, the actions of these people do not give us cause to throw either Chemistry or Christianity out. Individual people are to blame for their actions not the systems they use to achieve that end. St. Thomas Aquinas said it best: "Nothing is intrinsically good or evil, but its manner of usage may make it so.".

When mentioning wars, burning people alive etc., the thought comes to me: Do you really care? Are you the type of person who is caring, visits the sick, goes to the old folks home and serves humanity not just with donations but with their time? I am asking this because I believe it is relevant to the discussion to know if you really care about what you are mentioning. If you ignore your current neighbors and needy, Can you really care someone was burned at the stake five hundred years ago?

I would answer your other questions but I believe you were asking them to be patronizing to Grandma when you asked them. I have no problems with a logical discussion but I feel you don't want a discourse on those topics.

However, there is one topic I will address from your other questions that you repeated yourself on a couple times. You made one large assumption and that was that 'God' as defined by other religions, and yes even space aliens, is different from the God that Christians, Muslims etc. know and worship. You assumed many 'Gods' when in fact why couldn't it be one God that revealed himself differently to different peoples/species etc. The one thing we DO know is that we DON'T know if that is the case.

I have had the pleasure of being in the US Army, 11B at that. If you have been there then you understand my terminology. As a side note, the old saying "Everyone in a foxhole is religious" is really very accurate. Again, just as an aside to all of this, it is my personal opinion that most (NOT all) atheists are atheists because they have never been in a life or death situation or faced death up close.

posted on Jan, 14 2009 @ 10:53 PM
reply to post by GTORick

sorry for budding in like this, felt the need.

first of all, i follow your logic in that one cannot blame the system for the people who abuse it.

however i do think your logic on another matter is slightly flawed, it is not about compassion, it is not about caring for the people that were burned at the stake nor is it about compassion for the countless lost defending their faith during the crusades.
it is about the leaders, of what at the time almost worked as a european government, actually supporting these actions even encouraging them.
it is about the fear of what laws and actions other people might justify as right because the bible says so, or because it can be interpreted that way.
at least that is it for me, not saying i don't care about other people, merely that for me it is not the primary reason behind that argument.

on another note, if there is a god, then i believe your thesis of one god/multiple faces might be the one universal truth.
however if that is the case then i am ashamed of being human, look at how humanity responded were that the case, horrible.

you do know there is another saying i believe to be true 'the saying 'everyone in a foxhole is religious' is not a testament for religion, simply a testament against foxholes'

i am an agnostic, if there is definitive proof there is a god of course i will believe it, on a personal note i don't think it to be the case.

now i would like to share the scariest moment i have had in my life, i have been working with wind turbine generators since i was 15, three years now.
it all started just south of orleans, france.
a simple day at work it was, i had the job of assembling the aviation warning light on one of the turbines we had erected a couple of days before, it is a two man job, my partner was working the roof while i was inside preparing the GPS unit.
now one has to understand it can be very hard communicating while you are 112m above the ground on a day where it was barely safe being topside.
the wind was howling and so i did not hear anything he said before it was too late, apparently he had tried to warn me about some dark clouds on the horizon, i could not hear him, so he did not get any answers, seeing this as a sign to keep working, he did.
at the time i was connecting the casing of the GPS unit to the main grounding rails to protect it from lightning, this is done bu a solid copper wire and as i put that wire close to the rail an arc of electricity burst forth between the wire and the rail, a solid 10 cm, the noise was deafening, i dropped the wire.
my mind was racing, what had happened? i popped my head out the top hatch to ask what could have caused it, my partner looked at me, in that instant a lightning bolt surged from the clouds, hitting somewhere in the forest nearby.
now one has to understand, had we known there would be a thunderstorm coming we would not even be allowed in vicinity of the turbines.
i don't know how to explain this, but i saw the horror and dread i felt reflected in his eyes in the most terrifying way, never have i seen eyes like that, needless to say we both got into the nacelle of the turbine, as we got down the sound of electricity was constant, there was small arcs all over the place, the noise was deafening, i was frozen, i don't know for how long,
i remember him dragging me over to the emergency hatch in the bottom of the nacelle, i remember the feeling of desperation, i remember my mind racing, not with solutions, with regret.
the next thing i knew we were on our way down with the help of the emergency hatch and rappelling equipment, it took me more than half an hour on the ground before i realized i had survived.
if you have ever seen a vestas wind turbine, you know that it is mostly metal, to be in one during a thunderstorm is suicide.
today i still get shivers when i hear electricity arc.

posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 01:14 AM
reply to post by Oodain

Oodain (I love that name....and the meaning is not lost on me.) thank you so much for telling us that story and for your thoughtful discourse. I am really glad to be able to talk to someone, especially who has a different opinion, in a friendly civilized manner.

I am amazed at your story of the turbine with the storm. I don't know a whole lot about their design or construction but you were able to get across to me what it was like and the danger. I have worked with high amp/voltage electricity and it is a scary thing knowing one false move could be it. I understand the trance like state too and not knowing how you got from one place to the next. It is almost like a dream......does it seem that way to you?

Ok, on topic, for me your explanation of why the Bible and Christianity is feared is because of what might be put in place as laws based on certain views and beliefs from Christianity and the Bible. I understand where you are coming from better now. This one is slippery. People can and have used the Bible to justify strict/dumb/heartless laws and do as they please. The flip side of the coin though is, so has every other government that has existed. For example, where I live in California there are toll roads. We use electronic transponders to register when you pass the toll booth. Every car that passes through is basically videotaped at high speed so they can look at the license plate of a car that didn't pay/have a transponder. These cameras are so high tech they take pictures at high resolution of the inside of the car. Times are tough. Our friendly police are now going through these pictures looking for contraband. They are finding things, from something as simple as an illegal type of radar detector to drugs. My point in this story is I was always taught and understood that the inside of the car is like the inside of your home. If the police have no probable cause to search they need a search warrant. The pictures that the toll road takes I feel are unconstitutional searches. They do it anyways and say 'challenge us'....and the court always sides with the police. In my county there is a 98.5% conviction rate of traffic AND criminal complaints. In this case instead of the Bible being used to justify their actions the almighty dollar controlled it. I understand your fear of what laws people might implement with the Bible or justify but government, like in my example, implements actions, interprets the law and needs no justification let alone the Bible. I am afraid we are at an age or state where government will do things, make laws and do whatever they want without justification. Basically, what the Bible says or not government will do what they please and they don't have to justify it with anyone. In conclusion though I do agree that the Bible alone should never be used to justify a civil law.

Some of the leaders did support and encourage the use of civil power in a way that is not compatible with their Christian belief. This needs a couple points. I think first of, humanity, the Medieval age simply worked in a vicious, careless and reckless way. Today, in 2009 it is easy for us to condemn what happened then in that time period. However, for us to say that all of the atrocities, the rules by which people lived and died were a function of Christianity is wrong. A lot of things happened in Medieval Europe that in no way took Christian values into account. Some of Christianity's leaders jumped right on board with that. I would expect that. They were men and fallible. With our hindsight now it is easy to point out.

Let's not forget the other side of the coin. For example, St. Benedict, who begged for his food everyday established the monastic system which is still in use today. He went all over Europe, in sandals, begging for food, helping those who needed his help and living the Gospel.

posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 01:28 AM
Part 2

There were a lot of good people in the Medieval age like St. Benedict. There are hundreds of stories of Saints during that time period. Another that comes to mind is St. Francis. He lived the Gospel as well. One story goes that one very cold winter one of his Brothers in his Order noticed his clothes were thread bare. He gave St. Francis a new cassock. St. Francis gave it to an older priest in his Order because he was cold. I understand where you are coming from and the fear you would have about Christian leaders like we spoke about already. I would fear them too. However, too often in our nature we forget to look at the positive as well. The third one that comes to mind also is St. Catherine of Sienna. She had nothing but the clothes on her back in this lifetime. She served the poor and dying her whole life. Along with the bad there was a lot of good from that time as well. There were a lot of Saints, a lot of common people we will never hear about or ever know their names that truly lived the Gospel and followed the teachings of Christ.

Ok, I have talked enough for now. Oodain, thank you again for a civilized discussion. I am going to add you as a friend. There is a lot more to talk about but I want to hear from you and go from there.

posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 04:56 AM
Ofcourse Christianity is wrong.
No religion has it right.

The way God is portrayed is wrong.
Actually the way that everybody takes everything in literal sense in the Bible is wrong.
It is all encoded. You have to think about the phrases, what would it mean.

Everybody thinks there is an actual Hell where you will go and burn and be tortured for the rest of eternity.
No. This doesn't happen.

The only genuine person I've read in scripture is the teachings of Jesus.
It's funny how it's called 'Christ'ianity, when they do not follow his teachings at all.

If we were to decode it properly, Christianity would believe in aliens/UFOs.
Don't believe me? Go read the Book of Ezekiel again and think about it.

We all have to remember these people writing it don't have the words we do now, like Engines, Rockets, Spaceships, everything that would not have been around 2000 years ago, they don't know the words for pretty much.

Which is why I find some parts of the Bible quite contradicting.
It is obvious it has been tampered with, new 'Scriptures' added by those who wish to control the Christianity mind of humanity.

All that I can say is that if one were to not think of it literal, actually saying what's REALLY going to happen, then you'd get quite a clearer and happier image of what most parts of the Bible actually mean.

It isn't penned out for the sheep to understand, pretty much.

posted on Jan, 16 2009 @ 01:26 PM
reply to post by nj2day

Wow. I'm not sure what your objective is in disproving religion(s) but you have hardly done it here. You may want to take a class in Logic. If you already have I don't think you understood. Your conclusions are based on the assumptions of your very finite mind and you've committed logical fallacies. I'm really not trying to insult you here and I'm not even against the idea that religion(s) certainly foster some blaring idiosyncrasies, but there is very little substance to what you are claiming. Give it another go. I'll be interested to see what you come up with.

posted on Feb, 18 2009 @ 11:11 AM
reply to post by Yummy Freelunch

He got it and nailed to a T. and please don't try to DISAGREE with this person because there right and here is the great thing about it 1st my father is a baptist ministry so yup grew up with that crap and 2nd I'm right now as I speak getting ma phd. in archaeology its the study of proving thing fact or fiction yeah bible fiction life fact. thanks for letting me speak my peace.

posted on Feb, 20 2009 @ 06:34 AM
reply to post by nj2day

If the Bible is a template or a fake then you geniuses would be able to give me the answer to the following:

The Book Daniel was written 530 odd years before the birth of Jesus Christ. Now the prophecy in Daniel 9 exactly told us when Jesus was anointed (27 AD) when He was crucified (31 AD) and when the gospel went to the gentiles (34 AD). How is this possible if it is just a template? Read the 70 week prophecy in Daniel 9.

Secondly 100 % of ALL the prophecy in the Bible became 100 % true. History, archeology and secular books of history has confirmed the Bible over and over again. The Bible was written over 1600 years by 42 authors most that did not know each other.


The Bible is confirmed to be 100 % correct with archeology and history so you can confirm the existence and authenticity of each Bible book. The Bible is the inspired word of God.

More than 300 prophecies about Jesus alone were fulfilled in the Old Testament alone. The chances of 8 profecies coming true about one person is 10 to the power of 125, we only count on earth to 10 of the power of 80.

Thirdly the accounts of Genesis and the old testament is real and actual events. You can take it literal.

The Bible you have to read to understand it and taking one or two verse out of contexts to try and make your point is like swimming in a baby pool and saying you are surfing in Ocean in Hawaii and you are just the best.

The best is that all these authors of the Bible over 1600 years whom most did not know each other are all 100 % in complete harmony with each other. Now how is this possible?

If all of this is true then why is the Bible the ONLY holy scripture with prophecy and charts? See God told us when mankind started, the entire history of man and when mankind will end and this all in the Bible. Now you think you have all the facts or do you think you are maybe missing something??

posted on Feb, 23 2009 @ 06:21 PM
reply to post by noobfun

you say that there all in it for the tithe ? than how would you rate the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints . no one in that church is paid or compensated in and way, no one gets paid. what are they in it for ?

posted on Nov, 20 2010 @ 09:24 PM
I hope this has not been posted already but 93 pages is a good chunk of reading. So below is my debunking of the debunker

1. Yes he could by choice he could make it impossible for himself to life. Then if he chose to change the rules so that he could lift it.

2. Not entirely accurate and bad logic. Just because one knows the future does not mean that the same person changes the future or sets it in stone. All knowing just means exactly that all knowing. He knows what you will say and what you will do before you do it. That does not mean he will change it.

3. Yes and No. It is predestined in the sense that he already knows but, not predestined in the sensee that you do not have a choice. You have the choice to believe in God but choose not to. This does not mean that God made you believe not to, but that you chose that path. Did he know it yes, did he change it and make you not believe even when you wanted to which would then make it predestined, no.

4. This is really just a repeat of the combination of 3 and 4 in different words so we will just refer back to that to save space.

5. Again bad logic. Just because he does not change the future does not mean he can't. Also, if he did he would know that he was going to making him still all knowing. He is not powerless to change the outcome but chooses not to.

posted on Nov, 21 2010 @ 10:02 AM
reply to post by cerberus00

After God created everything, he rested. So, doesn't this mean he is still at rest? Who is in charge if he is resting?

posted on Nov, 22 2010 @ 04:40 PM
Hi, I hope I can shed some light on your questions. I don't claim to have all the answers. I just hope I can help a little. I apologize ahead of time for the length of the post. Thanks for reading.


The word ‘omnipotent’ comes from ‘omni’ meaning all and ‘potent’ meaning power. As with the attributes of omniscience and omnipresence, it follows that if God is infinite, and if He is sovereign, which we know He is, then He must also be omnipotent. He has all power over all things at all times and in all ways.

Job spoke of God’s power in Job 42:2: “I know that you can do all things and that no plan of yours can be thwarted.” Job was acknowledging God’s omnipotence in carrying out His plans. Moses, too, was reminded by God that He had all power to complete His purposes regarding the Israelites: “The LORD answered Moses, ‘Is the LORD's arm too short? You will now see whether or not what I say will come true for you.’”

Nowhere is God’s omnipotence seen more clearly than in creation. God said, “Let there be…” and it was so (Genesis 1:3, 6, 9, etc.). Man needs tools and materials to create; God simply spoke and by the power of His words, everything was created from nothing. “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth” (Psalm 33:6).

God’s power is also seen in the preservation of His creation. All life on earth would perish were it not for God’s continual provision of everything we need for food, clothing and shelter, all from renewable resources sustained by His power as the preserver of man and beast (Psalm 36:6). The seas which cover most of the earth, and over which we are powerless, would overwhelm us if God did not proscribe their limits (Job 38:8-11).

God’s omnipotence extends to governments and leaders (Daniel 2:21), as He restrains them or lets them go their way according to His plans and purposes. His power is unlimited in regard to Satan and his demons. Satan’s attack on Job was limited to only certain actions. He was restrained by God’s unlimited power (Job 1:12, 2:6). Jesus reminded Pilate that he had no power over Him unless it had been granted to him by the God of all power (John 19:11).

Having total omnipotence, nothing is too hard for God. However, that doesn’t mean God has lost any of His omnipotence when the Bible says that He cannot do certain things. For example, Hebrews 6:18 says that He cannot lie. That doesn’t mean He doesn’t have the power to lie, but that God chooses not to lie in accord with His own moral perfection. In the same way, despite His being all powerful and hating evil, He allows evil to happen, according to His good purpose. Of course, He does use certain evil events to allow His purposes to unfold, such as when the greatest evil of all occurred—the killing of the perfect, holy, innocent Lamb of God for the redemption of mankind.

As God incarnate, Jesus Christ is omnipotent. His power is seen in the miracles He performed—His numerous healings, the feeding of the five thousand (Mark 6:30-44), calming the storm (Mark 4:37-41), and the ultimate display of power, raising Lazarus and Jairus’s daughter from the dead (John 11:38-44, Mark 5:35-43), an example of His control over life and death. Death is the ultimate reason that Jesus came—to destroy it (1 Corinthians 15:22, Hebrews 2:14) and to bring sinners into a right relationship with God. The Lord Jesus stated clearly that He had power to lay down His life and power to take it up again, as he allegorized when speaking about the temple (John 2: 19). He had power to call upon twelve legions of angels to rescue Him, during His trial, if needed (Matthew 26:53), yet He offered Himself in humility in place of others (Philippians 2:1-11).

The great mystery is that this power can be shared by believers who are united to God in Jesus Christ. Paul says: "Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me" (2 Corinthians 12:9b). God’s power is exalted in us most when our weaknesses are greatest because He “is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us” (Ephesians 3:20). It is God’s power that continues to hold us in a state of grace despite our sin (2 Timothy 1:12), and by His power we are kept from falling (Jude 24). His power will be proclaimed by all the host of heaven for all eternity (Revelation 19:1). May that be our endless prayer!

Free Will:

When we talk about free will, we are usually concerned with the matter of salvation. Few are interested in whether we have the free will to choose salad or steak for our dinner tonight. Rather, we are troubled over who exactly is in control of our eternal destiny.

Any discussion of man’s free will must begin with an understanding of his nature because man’s will is bound by that nature. A prisoner has the freedom to pace up and down in his cell, but he is constrained by the walls of that cell and can go no further, no matter how much his will might desire it. So it is with man. Because of sin, man is imprisoned within a cell of corruption and wickedness which permeates to the very core of our being. Every part of man is in bondage to sin – our bodies, our minds, and our wills. Jeremiah 17:9 tells us the state of man’s heart: it is “deceitful and desperately wicked.” In our natural, unregenerate state, we are carnally minded, not spiritually minded. “For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be” (Romans 8:6-7). These verses tell us that before we are saved, we are at enmity (war) with God, we do not submit to God and His law, neither can we. The Bible is clear that, in his natural state, man is incapable of choosing that which is good and holy. In other words, he does not have the “free will” to choose God because his will is not free. It is constrained by his nature, just as the prisoner is constrained by his cell.

How then can anyone be saved? Ephesians 2:1 describes the process. We who are “dead in our trespasses and sins” have been “made alive” through Christ. A dead man cannot make himself alive because he lacks the necessary power to do so. Lazarus lay in his tomb four days unable to do a thing to resurrect himself. Christ came along and commanded him to come to life (John 11). So it is with us. We are spiritually dead, unable to rise. But “while we were yet sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). He calls us out of our spiritual graves and gives us a completely new nature, one undefiled by sin as the old nature was (2 Corinthians 5:17). God saw the desperate and helpless state of our souls, and in His great love and mercy, He sovereignly chose to send His Son to the cross to redeem us. By His grace we are saved through the gift of faith which He gives us so that we can believe in Jesus. His grace is a free gift, our faith is a free gift, and our salvation is a free gift given to those whom God has chosen “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4). Why did He chose to do it this way? Because it was “according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace” (Ephesians 1:5-6). It’s important to understand that the plan of salvation is designed to glorify God, not man. Our response is to praise Him for the “glory of His grace.” If we chose our own salvation, who would get the glory? We would, and God has made it clear that He will not give the glory due to Him to anyone else (Isaiah 48:11).

The question naturally arises, how do we know who has been saved “from the foundation of the world”? We don’t. That is why we take the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth, telling all to repent and receive God’s gift of grace. Second Corinthians 5:20 tells us we are to be pleading with others to be reconciled to God before it is too late. We cannot know who God will choose to release from their prison cells of sin. We leave that choice to Him and present the Gospel to all. The ones who come to Jesus He “will in no way cast out” (John 6:37).

If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).

In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.

It is impossible for us to fully understand the dynamics of a holy God molding and shaping the will of man. Scripture is clear that God knows the future (Matthew 6:8; Psalm 139:1-4) and has total sovereign control over all things (Colossians 1:16-17; Daniel 4:35). The Bible also says that we must choose God or be eternally separated from Him. We are held responsible for our actions (Romans 3:19; 6:23; 9:19-21). How these facts work together is impossible for a finite mind to comprehend (Romans 11:33-36).

People can take one of two extremes in regard to this question. Some emphasize the sovereignty of God to the point that human beings are little more than robots simply doing what they have been sovereignly programmed to do. Others emphasize free will to the point of God not having complete control and/or knowledge of all things. Neither of these positions is biblical. The truth is that God does not violate our wills by choosing us and redeeming us. Rather, He changes our hearts so that our wills choose Him. “We love Him because He first loved us” (1 John 4:19), and “You did not choose me, but I chose you” (John 15:16).

What are we to do then? First, we are to trust in the Lord, knowing that He is in control (Proverbs 3:5-6). God’s sovereignty is supposed to be a comfort to us, not an issue to be concerned about or debate over. Second, we are to live our lives making wise decisions in accordance with God’s Word (2 Timothy 3:16-17; James 1:5). There will be no excuses before God for why we chose to disobey Him. We will have no one to blame but ourselves for our sin. Last but not least, we are to worship the Lord, praising Him that He is so wonderful, infinite, powerful, full of grace and mercy—and sovereign.

I hope this information helps somewhat. I apologize if it takes me a while to respond to any replies regarding this information.

posted on Aug, 30 2013 @ 01:51 AM
Wow I am on page 10 and still reading. Bumping this to keep it marked. Has to be one solid argument to have this many pages. Wish the OP was still around.

posted on Sep, 2 2013 @ 08:21 AM
reply to post by nj2day

The Freedom that the scriptures is talking about there is talking about being called away from Sin which means not the ways of God. Servants of God are predestined to be called and may even serve God but what isn't set is if that will last or not. Free will definitely does exists even though much of our lives are actually pre-destined. I have witnesses the difference and can show you some real life examples.

1. God may lead you to find your soul mate, get married, have kids but to get divorced and throw it away might have been your choice/poor decision.

2. In my faith a Priest is only chosen by the mass prophesies of gifts from the congregation who God has chosen to give an opportunity to watchover them. Even though it was long decided that God has ordained Prophets and in this case Priests before they were born, it was up to them when they were given the calling to maintain it.

Just as God gave Adam the garden to look after, we are given opportunities that are up to us to nuture and take care of. That is also how we and God will know what we are really made of.

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