Evidence in Scripture disproving god once and for all

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posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox
reply to post by spy66
 


What makes you think that you can simply use logic and reason on something which is far beyond our knowledge?
Logic and reason tells me that 1+1 = 2.
However, where quantum physics is concerned, 1+1 = 48.5773.
How? Who the hell knows. But one thing's for sure, we know next to nothing when it comes to the existence of our universe.
You can't simply make all these assumptions about infinity, nothingness, and what lays beyond our line of sight.
The whole argument is ridiculous.


Then why are we having this discussions,If we cant use logic and reason within the meaning of our words to explain.

Whats the point if we cant.

You dont have to get mad just because i see the logic and you dont. You just use denial to stay on course or in the debate.




posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 05:09 PM
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reply to post by Yummy Freelunch
 


Mmmm... Angelina Jolie... I mean - sorry, what were you saying?




Originally posted by spy66
Infinite means: No beginning and no End. It always is and always was.


But you fail to see that it's quite possible that anything outside our universe would appear infinite to the human mind - for the simple fact that it would be outside of the deminsion of time and therefore not be bound by it. But does that make it infinite? There could be a stage beyond that, and one beyond that. All your words are formed on assumptions which have no bases.



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by spy66

Then why are we having this discussions,If we cant use logic and reason within the meaning of our words to explain.

Whats the point if we cant.

You dont have to get mad just because i see the logic and you dont. You just use denial to stay on course or in the debate.


there is no logic when you making assumptions with nothign to support it and misusing terms without giving the deffinition you wish to portray with the word

infinate is infinate, this does not also mean it is eternal

your mixing terms and creeating false context

[edit on 23/12/08 by noobfun]



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 05:14 PM
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reply to post by TruthParadox
 


You rang? Oh yes, back to the topic...



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by noobfun

Originally posted by spy66

Then why are we having this discussions,If we cant use logic and reason within the meaning of our words to explain.

Whats the point if we cant.

You dont have to get mad just because i see the logic and you dont. You just use denial to stay on course or in the debate.


there is no logic when you making assumptions with nothign to support it and misusing terms without giving the deffinition you wish to portray with the word

infinate is infinate, this does not also mean it is eternal

your mixing terms and creeating false context

[edit on 23/12/08 by noobfun]


Am i. It sounds more like i am right and your just trying to save your pride.
Because you know what i am saying and you know what i mean. And now you have run out of words to prove me wrong.



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 05:22 PM
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Originally posted by spy66
Then why are we having this discussions,If we cant use logic and reason within the meaning of our words to explain.

Whats the point if we cant.


lol, you're having this discussion trying to prove a point that you can't possible prove.
Everyone else is trying to tell you that you can't use logic when there's no knowledge backing it.


Originally posted by spy66
You dont have to get mad just because i see the logic and you dont. You just use denial to stay on course or in the debate.


lol...
I didn't get mad.
You talk about infinity as if you understand it.
Infinity means without bounds or an end.
We understand the things that bind us, but anything that's outside our universe would not have these limits - thus appearing to be infinite.
Perhaps in the outer universe which encompasses this universe, there are laws in place which would account for the existence of our universe without the need of an infinite source.
Or, perhaps there's a multiverse outside our universe with an infinite number of parallel universes.
You haven't argued against that, because you can't. It's all guesses that we can't possibly verify.
Until you prove why those two examples I gave could not be accurate, then you will have to admit that your theory is no better - just a guess.



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 05:23 PM
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Originally posted by spy66

Am i. It sounds more like i am right and your just trying to save your pride.
Because you know what i am saying and you know what i mean. And now you have run out of words to prove me wrong.


well im glad the self delusion is so enjoyable for you


you use the term space and infer its infinate

space is any part of our finite 14 billion year old universe not occupied by lumps of elements

so there fore space is not infinate or eternal

so yes you are misusing words and by not adding your deffinition so we know what you actually mean by the word then it makes even less sense

your playing silly games with language rather then with logic common sense or science

so deffine what YOU mean by space as it obviously isnt what science says it is

then prove there is an infinate for everything to spawn from

a sack full of pride is worth the value of the sack, id rather learn and be honest then have pride and stick to falsety

so deffine what you mean by space so we at least know how your missuising the term



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 05:42 PM
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reply to post by noobfun
 



No your wrong again.

I have tried to use every word i can think of to try and get you to understand. But you never do. You keep on denying or miss using them.
But that's OK it's your right to do so.

Mabe other do get it.




[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by spy66
No your wrong again.



I have tried to use every word i can think of to try and get you to understand.
then try using the right words with the correct meaning your trying to convey

at the moment you arnt

your misusing the word space

interswitching eternal and infinate as if they are the same thing


But you never do. You keep on denying or miss using them.
But that's OK it's your right to do so.

Mabe other do get it.


im misusing the terms by using thier correct meaning
this is a new one

[edit on 23/12/08 by noobfun]



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by TruthParadox

Originally posted by spy66
Then why are we having this discussions,If we cant use logic and reason within the meaning of our words to explain.

Whats the point if we cant.


lol, you're having this discussion trying to prove a point that you can't possible prove.
Everyone else is trying to tell you that you can't use logic when there's no knowledge backing it.


Originally posted by spy66
You dont have to get mad just because i see the logic and you dont. You just use denial to stay on course or in the debate.


lol...
I didn't get mad.
You talk about infinity as if you understand it.
Infinity means without bounds or an end.
We understand the things that bind us, but anything that's outside our universe would not have these limits - thus appearing to be infinite.
Perhaps in the outer universe which encompasses this universe, there are laws in place which would account for the existence of our universe without the need of an infinite source.
Or, perhaps there's a multiverse outside our universe with an infinite number of parallel universes.
You haven't argued against that, because you can't. It's all guesses that we can't possibly verify.
Until you prove why those two examples I gave could not be accurate, then you will have to admit that your theory is no better - just a guess.


No. When you reflect my words, you discard what i say by making up your own meaning. You know what i mean but you try hard to think of something else.

Your just putting in a new meaning to replace what i am saying.

I cant prove nothing,but that dosen't mean i cant use words to explain. Just like every one else. Because the only thing we can do is to try and explain.



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 06:36 PM
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reply to post by noobfun
 


Noob!! Thank you for the really funny video!



the view is generally as long as what ever you believe doesnt interfer with your work and you dont start using magic and mystacism to explain things you can believe pretty much anything you want

still doesnt mean you should believe everything and anything though

as the phrase goes "of course be open minded, but not so open minded your brain falls out"


Right on, at least until the Gods go out of their way to get your attention! That's always fun!



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by spy66
No. When you reflect my words, you discard what i say by making up your own meaning. You know what i mean but you try hard to think of something else.

Your just putting in a new meaning to replace what i am saying.

I cant prove nothing,but that dosen't mean i cant use words to explain. Just like every one else. Because the only thing we can do is to try and explain.


So you can't disprove the theories that I gave of the universe?
You'd think that someone who had complete understanding of the universe - enough to know the source of it's existence - would be able to disprove one of my silly guesses.
Oh well.


Originally posted by spy66
You know what i mean but you try hard to think of something else.


lol... I know what someone is saying when they say "pink elephants can fly", but that doesn't mean it makes sense. You have yet to give any reason why there would have to be an infinite source. Not only this, but you have ignored what I've said - that no one can know what's beyond our reach to know.



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 06:43 PM
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reply to post by spy66
 


To make it easy on you, I'll go back to noobfun's suggestion


Originally posted by spy66
Well the proff is: Finite cant exist with out a infinite space. That is the proff.


Where's the proof? First prove that point, and then we will consider the rest.
If you can't prove it, then it will be obvious to us all that your whole theory is based on assumptions.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 06:23 PM
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Hi,
Far too many replies to read through, hehe. So i'll just reply to the OP. To start, i'm not a Christian, or follower of any religion.

Your topic heading is quite ambitious, to say the least. And your opening text does not deliver on proof God does not exist. Many folks who profess to be Christians today, are simply not following in Christ's way. Incidentally, Jesus himself didn't much like organised religion. The few times he was angry, it was quite often at religious folks. Anyhow, what your text does argue, is that at various times, the folks who created the different books of the Bible did not agree on some things. Is this strange? Not at all. The Bible as you & I surely both know, if a collection of books spanning a very long time. Through this time, feelings toward God surely change, as culture changes. With spirituality, each individual expereince can be different.

The problem with the Bible, is that silly folks have portrayed it as 'the word of God'. When it largely, and bluntly is not. It is individual human's perceptions, and expereinces of the divine, and the various ways the divine has manifested.

It would perhaps be better if the Bible was not viewed as some kinda linear tale, but instead, a collection of various folks opinions/expereinces of the divine. This post of mine, of course goes against mainstream Christianity, that's not important to me, hehe. It is folks within it that have created this kinda issue anyhow.

Re: Free will. we do of course have free will. However, as you are hypothesing that there are contradictions with God in your topic, i'll go along here.

If God does exist, what is it that makes you think you could possibly understand the ways of athe creative force that gave life to all things?



1) If god is Omnipotent, can he make an object so heavy he cannot lift it himself?


I would doubt it, if he is omnipotent. Specifically why are you asking this?



2) Free will: If god is Omniscient, than he knows your future. If he knows your future, than it is already set in stone (if your future changed, god would cease to be omniscient). Therefore Free will cannot exist... Which can't be true, since the bible is the infallible word of god, and says we are created free.


This is where a human mind is trying to understand the nature of God. If he existed. I'm deeply spiritual, and i know it can at times take many years to unearth the truth about ourselves, let alone the divine. The bible as we know it is not infallible.



3) If god is all knowing, and all powerful, and the creator of all... than he must know who is doomed to hell before they are born. Knowing who is destined for hell, how can he offer a free pass to heaven by believing in Jesus? Surely he knew what you would decide before you were given the option. Therefore, choosing to believe or not to believe is not your choice, but is predestined before you were born. Your ticket has already been written, so don't sweat it... right?


A decision cannot be made for me before i am born, how can i make it if i'm not alive yet? We have free will, and sure, God may know what choice we will take, it's not up to him, it's up to us to choose.



4) If god knows who is doomed to hell before their are born and allows them to be created anyway, than he is sentencing people to eternal damnation for sins never committed... If people are born without their futures etched in stone, than god cannot see the future.


No, the responsibility for the way we conduct ourselves in this life falls to us. We can't go around blaming others for the way we be. Imagine, in the future, they find a gene for murderers. And some folks go have kids anyhow. Are we to blame the parents, just cause i go nuts and kill folks? No, the blame lies with me. If i go to hell, it's cause i put myself there.

ran outta text, last question to follow....

[edit on 26-12-2008 by reiki]

[edit on 26-12-2008 by reiki]

[edit on 26-12-2008 by reiki]



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 06:27 PM
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.....


5) If god is Omniscient, knowing what will happen in the future, than he can not use his omnipotence to change the outcome... As he is powerless to change the outcome of future events, he is not Omnipotent.


What makes you say what God can & cannot do? We would never know if he changed the future. I'd lean to say he wouldn't, as far as the Bible is concerned, cause of free will. Though, how could you or I know. Your question is irrelevant then. By the very nature of who God is purported to be, humans can only ever hope to superficially understand God's ways. WE humans are able to change our minds. Are we to assume that God cannot? That we, in fact can do something God can't. That surely wouldn't be true.

God, the divine, that creative force, zero point/point of creation, is not subject to religion. Religion is man-made vehicles that were intended to give structure within different cultures to expereince the divine. Negating the bible as we know it, is very easy to do, Negating many religions is easy also. The bible is a collection of many opinions/expereinces, these things are subjective. There is a common theme running through it however, as it is through all scriptures. No one religion holds the truth. They are all different paths to the same shop. Therefore, negating the Bible as we know it here will certainly not disprove God. the divine does not need religion.

Incidentally, finding out if God exists through adademic research can be futile. Finding out he exists via experiental paths, is another matter. And once something is expereinced, adademic research may back it up. I'm speaking from expereince. A hint is in my ATS name, hehe.

take care
Wayne

[edit on 26-12-2008 by reiki]

[edit on 26-12-2008 by reiki]

[edit on 26-12-2008 by reiki]



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by MatrixProphet

Noob!! Thank you for the really funny video!


its a good song inst it ^_^ not very catchy though



Right on, at least until the Gods go out of their way to get your attention! That's always fun!


well ill be waiting just like all the other atheists/agnostics

will we have to wait long? just dont want to get my hopes up if its gonna take a while



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 07:03 PM
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This is what i believe.

God is = Thee Spirit. Not in flesh.But Thee Spirit. We cant see God.

Angels are = Spirits. Not in flesh. We cant see angels.

Humans are =Spirits in flesh. And we can see other humans.

How do we communicate!
We communicate through our thought,actions and believes. (Our spirit)

Why do we neglect God and angels. Because we cant see them. They are not of flesh.

We neglect other spirits because we think that our thoughts are just our own. That's why it is so hard for us to grasp the concept of God and angels. We cant see them.

But one thing is for certain. We are all going to die. It's just a mater of time.
We only have the time in flesh to get our story straight. What you have between you ears is what you bring with you before God, when your spirit leaves the flesh.

But if you dont believe in a creation. You for sure wouldn't believe that you have a spirit. You will just become fertilizer for the dirt and grass when you rot. That's what you like to believe in.

Case closed.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 07:05 PM
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reply to post by noobfun
 


well ill be waiting just like all the other atheists/agnostics

will we have to wait long? just dont want to get my hopes up if its gonna take a while


I suspect you, like me, won't be holding your breath that it will happen at all.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 07:17 PM
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reply to post by spy66
 


People have faith [def. belief without evidence] in invisible things because it makes their lives so much easier and gives them a way to escape the fear of true death, oblivion.

The reality is that I would like their to be a loving God and Jesus and heaven and all that jazz that you believe, it would be much nicer. However without evidence, I will forever feel I'm deceiving myself just because I'm opting to believe in something just because it's more comfortable. I don't want physical death to be the absolute end but I have no reason to think otherwise.

I'm an agnostic-atheist who'd rather know truth than believe in comfortable fables. Until there is any significant empirical evidence, like God showing up in person and explaining it all to me just like I would with a friend (a tangible presence), then I simply cannot believe this.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 07:31 PM
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reply to post by spy66
 


oooo an appeal to force

jump to 1:39



and this is exactly what your doing just on a lesser scale


im not scared of the boogeyman so why be scared of somthing else thats imaginary

fear of the dark is a remanent from evoltuon and childhood, guess not everyone grew out of it



[edit on 26/12/08 by noobfun]





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