here is my response to your statements,

1. Everything is possible with God.

2. You cannot claim free will does not exist just because
God knows the future. God knows the outcome of your free will
life. Just because he allready knows in advance, does not mean
its not all your choosing.

3. Yes, He knows the saved and unsaved.
Again back to #2 above, just because God knows the future does
not mean it was not all your choosing.

4. Again, the same thing. people commit sins, the saved and
unsaved. Just because god knows in advance does not mean those
sins are not done with free will. He lets all of his creations live
out their free will life, saved and unsaved.

5. You claim because god cannot change the future, then he is not
all powerful. The bible describes god as all perfect,
never changing, all powerful, so why would there ever be a reason
for him to change the future?

your conclusions:
1. God is all powerful, very busy, we are not his only creations, he has
many up in heaven with him working together, and who knows where else.
He is busy in peoples lives also, sending angels to comfort and help people
in hard times, sending prophets to spread the word.

2. You havent established anything. The basis of your argument is
that because God knows the future, then people dont have free will.
This is false.

3. Yes, the Christian God exists.

Originally posted by badmedia
In the eyes of god, the universe is static. As he is all knowing and omnipotent, there is nothing he doesn't know. As such, time does not exist, there is nothing that changes.

Take a movie film. Spread it out from end to end. If you were looking at the entire movie at once spread out, then that is how god sees the universe, static and without motion or time.

I'm positive you have to have some evidence, scriptural or otherwise for this outlandish theory? Or is this what we call apologetics.

is christianity getting backed into a corner so tightly that they have to start fabricating theories about the existence of the universe to fit their ideas?

Free will - Do the tracks free the train or enslave the train? The answer is the tracks will only provide the illusion of freedom. As soon as the train decides to go in a direction outside the tracks, he will soon realize he is not free. This is kind of how things work in the world now, you think you are free - until you try to do something that tracks are not provided for.

I beg to differ... I can do absolutely anything that I put my mind to, as long as it is possible within the realm of physics, and is something that doesn't rely on others to assist... anything...

I just have to make sure I'm prepared to live with the consequences.

The only way for free will to exist is for every single possibility to be available. All possibilities. No defined tracks. Surely god is not limited in consciousness to only allow for a single film strip.

Nope, dimensions are limited (by current physics) to 11 though... maybe 12...

does this mean that i'm only allowed 12 different variations?

The universe is not a single film strip. It is film strip next to film strip, next to film strip. In our limited perspectives, to us it fills like a single strip. From our perspective, time is linear. We sit in our single dimension always.

Wrong again... Physics states we reside in all dimensions at once. We only see in a 4 dimentional sense...

besides.. if we're all in one dimension... why don't friends/family pop out of existence in our dimension when they make a decision that would remove them from our dimension?

But, you actually change dimensions all the time. Every new frame of reality you see is actually the next dimension. What decides that next frame is based on the choices you make, which are based on the understandings you have, as well as intent. This is easy to see on a small scale.

You got your ideas on how dimensions work from watching Sci-fi movies didn't you? Quantum leap? something of the sort... ooooh I know... sliders

Go read some quantum before you try and discuss quantum.

3d is 2d stacked, 4d is 3d stacked and so on.

wow, just wow... this is false... completely... 2D only has... 2 dimensions... and lacks the third... you can stack 2D on top of each other all day long... and never achieve a third dimension.

Seriously dude, do some basic study before you try this stuff... you might injure yourself.

It is your consciousness which moves, not the universe(static). Your consciousness, the state of being, is part of god - the observer(John 14:20). This much should be obvious to people as they talk of what happens to "you" after death when you are no longer in your body.

Ahhhh I get it now... so your friends/relatives don't pop out of dimensions... their consciousness does, and they become a shill of a human?

This is where you should read up a little bit on the nature of consciousness... its a fascinating topic... but obviously misunderstood often.

Speaking of forgiven, the way you ask for forgiveness is you understand why you were wrong, and then no longer do it again. At which point you will no longer sow the sin, and thus no longer reap it.

By this theory, IF I die, and there is a magic man asking me WTF, I can understand why I was wrong, repent and be forgiven!

No need to undergo all the dogma and rhetoric!



[edit on 27-11-2008 by nj2day]

Originally posted by christimv
here is my response to your statements,

1. Everything is possible with God.

Ok? thats it? are you serious?

2. You cannot claim free will does not exist just because
God knows the future. God knows the outcome of your free will
life. Just because he allready knows in advance, does not mean
its not all your choosing.

Yes I can, because of the verse that was quoted saying that we are all subject to "his" plan. If he has a plan, obviously we cannot deviate from that plan... free will is false...

3. Yes, He knows the saved and unsaved.

So he allows people to be born specifically to be damned? what kind of god is that?

4. Again, the same thing. people commit sins, the saved and
unsaved. Just because god knows in advance does not mean those
sins are not done with free will. He lets all of his creations live
out their free will life, saved and unsaved.

This is just leading up to a cop out in the future... its amazing... then why do people talk about "god's will".

If he answers prayer, he can't exactly be allowing free will to happen if you think about it... especially in the long, drawn out, convoluted ways people believe prayers are answered.

5. You claim because god cannot change the future, then he is not
all powerful. The bible describes god as all perfect,
never changing, all powerful, so why would there ever be a reason
for him to change the future?

How can we claim he's never changing?

one example:
Genesis 6:6-7:

The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth – men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air – for I am grieved that I have made them.”

apparently he changed his mind... because he allowed Noah to build a boat, and Mankind is still here?

2. You havent established anything. The basis of your argument is
that because God knows the future, then people dont have free will.
This is false.

No, read again... and this time apply some thought.

My argument is that the facts presented in the bible describing god are contradictory, paradoxical and Impossible.

by the way, if I didn't respond to something you typed in your post, its not because I can't refute what you presented...

Its because I can't respond without laughing at the wild ideas you're inventing, and would only look like a total prick when I respond.




[edit on 27-11-2008 by nj2day]

Originally posted by Good Wolf
I think the main point of this thread is that Freewill is rubbish, even contradictory in the bible.

Yes, sorry. I didn't choose my words well. I edited my post to make sure it was clear in case anyone reads it in the future. What I meant was, when I posted, the paradox is what everyone was mainly focused on so that is what I answered.

As for the free will vs. predestination issue. Ouch. That is a painful and long winded debate even worse than debating the rapture doctrine or pitting a KJV only supporter against an NIV user. It's never going to be pretty. lol

The way I see it and the briefest answer possible is when you take the entirety of Scripture into consideration, both have a bit of truth to them. Which leads me to believe it's not an either/or extreme but an accommodation of both principles to reach the truth.

This would get us into God's will vs. our will (although God's will is always sovereign, there are cases where we can go against His will), free will and predestination concerning our actions vs. salvation (some believe free will pertains to our actions while predestination concerns salvation), total and complete free will vs. limited free will (limited free will seems contradictory but this is referring to free will inside and outside of causes), and, lastly, the difference between God's omniscience and involvement (as in, He might know what we will do but that does not mean He is forcing us to do it).

That's just some of the main issues that go into this debate. To me personally, because there are so many factors to consider, I came to the conclusion that it is a bit of both. This is something theologians have been haggling over for centuries, though, so I don't dare say I am absolutely right. It's just my conclusion but it's such a huge debate, it can be exhausting to explain it all.

Oh and edit to add in one more thing: Some Christians do believe the concept of free will is man made dogma that should not be considered Bible-based doctrine. I believe there is Biblical truth to free will but still wanted to add in that opinion, too, because it does exist.

[edit on 11/27/2008 by AshleyD]

Its not possible to disprove the idea of a christian God according to the bible or anything. I think the whole point is that God exists beyond any rules our human minds can comprehend. For instance, if he created the universe he must live outside it, so the very idea of time or causality is in question since we know time is a product of the physical universe...so making simple "if/then" or statements to use against Christians would just be futile...Consider a being living outside space/time, why can't free will and predetermination coexist? Lightwaves, photons....

Not arguing for or against God but saying its kind of pointless to use the supposed "word of God" to "disprove" that there is none....

WOW! while atleast that last event about giving up daughters is in the Bible.... that doesn't mean that what was done was right or that god approved..... the story was to show what happens when people get out of control and the consequences of their actions... as in the whole city turned to salt... same goes for the other.... just cause it's in the bible doesn't mean god approves or there is no consequences....

If christians were never taught christianity and left to there own device out in the wilderness, would they still arrive at the same conclusions with there beliefs on god? I personally doubt it.

So why the need to be taught it? and what does that tell you about the belief system?

If you were born in a muslim country you wouldnt be brought up in a christian way, do you think you'd still become a christian or is it just luck of the draw?

Originally posted by Horus12
If christians were never taught christianity and left to there own device out in the wilderness, would they still arrive at the same conclusions with there beliefs on god? I personally doubt it.

So why the need to be taught it? and what does that tell you about the belief system?

If you were born in a muslim country you wouldnt be brought up in a christian way, do you think you'd still become a christian or is it just luck of the draw?

I came to my conclusions without the bible. Actually, I came to my conclusions while not liking Christians or the bible or wanting anything to do with them.

I didn't learn from the bible, I just seen what I learned repeated and described by Jesus. I am not the only one either.