Evidence in Scripture disproving god once and for all

reply to post by nj2day

some thinking happened... and blammo!

Thank God for thinking, huh.

reply to post by badmedia


I don't get your poker game logic. You have to play by the rules or it's "cheating." Or it turns into a different game.

Ah. The possible impossibility logic. How may angels can fit on the head of a pin? Can God who created everything uncreate Himself? Useless Eastern questions that have no logic, no understanding, no purpose and no rationale. How can God be three, but one? These same questions you ask were asked a couple thousand years ago. Folks whose personal lives had no meaning, so to give their lives meaning, they came up with impossible logic. Arianism was one of those results.

We already know that there are eleven dimensions. Which dimension?

The real question is - if the true answer were given, are you intelligent enough to understand it?

From what I've seen so far, I wouldn't even go there.

Originally posted by badmedia

Yes, god can create a rock he can not lift, but because for god it is merely a choice. When he chooses the rock to be so heavy to lift, then that is what it is and he will not be able to lift that rock. When he chooses the rock can be lifted, then it can be lifted.

Than that isn't exactly creating a rock that can't be lifted is it? If he can lift it when he puts the effort into it, he hasn't done anything besides create a Big friggan rock.

The idea of omnipotence is a complete logical paradox in itself... You fail to see the point, and instead interject nonsensical speculation without sources.

It is all about choice.

So he choses to not be omnipotent sometimes? your not making sense here.

When you go to a poker game, what stops you from just looking at everyone elses cards? Because you choose to play by those rules. If you choose not to play by those rules, then you can just reach over and turn the cards rightside up.

A really really bad oversimplification on your part with the poker metaphor... here... i'll try again for you..

"I can move that rock"

"no you can't! prove it"

"nah, I don't wanna right now... maybe later"




[edit on 27-11-2008 by nj2day]

reply to post by dooper


This isn't asking nonsensical questions like you are suggesting, nor is it false logic. Only 1 point out of my 5 on the OP points out the paradoxical nature of the description itself...

But I understand where you are coming from... If I didn't have a decent rebuttal to an argument taken from scripture that logically deduces that your god cannot exist the way it is described... I might be pretty upset... I completely understand why you are dodging the question.

reply to post by nj2day


ok let me ask you a question, to you what is the bible about ?

what is the motivation of the bible and what is it trying to tell us?

reply to post by Demandred


I fail to see how this argument is valid, and instead see you creating a straw man.

What I believe about the bible is not of consequence. Logic is logic.

Webster's defines logic as:

1) a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration.

2) Something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason

reply to post by nj2day


i have made no argument just ask a number of simple questions yet you use the usual evasions

again i ask you what is the bible about ?

what is the motivation of the bible and what is it trying to tell us?

surley some one as superior as yourself should be able to answer those 3 basic questions

reply to post by Demandred


Perhaps if you respond to the OP first, rather than posing off-topic questions off hand, NJ might play ball.

Otherwise your questions are irrelevant.

reply to post by Good Wolf


actually it is on topic, and these three questions can deturmine quite abit about the nature of god and wether he exists

people want to use the bible yet they dont understand the bible, they are blinded with ignorance as they quote text after text patting themselves on the back believing in their own superiority yet they miss the most obvious thing about the bible.

can you guess what it is?

reply to post by Demandred


The fact remains that it is completely irrelevant to the logical argument laid out in the OP.

However, to quell your curiosity, I will explain my position on the bible.

The bible is nothing more than a series of middle eastern bronze age myths that were intended to explain the nature of "how things worked".

I view the bible as you most likely view the Olympian gods. great stories, revealed a lot about the culture of the day.. however, in this day and age, completely irrelevant...

reply to post by Demandred


And your still not responding to the OP. AshleyD would have been all over this thread if she were here rather than boycotting it.

reply to post by nj2day


No, you listed five, but you only had two.

You want to apply your reasoning and limited logic to One who is beyond your understanding, and apparently, already too confusing for you.

Right now, I can show you X input, and three feet away, we'll be getting 7,000X output, and you can't see it, you can't track it, and no meter will detect how it gets there. It just appears. Even forensic engineers can't explain it and it creeps them out. Because it violates everything they've been taught about physics.

You're a pretty smart guy. You can come up with riddles that have no purpose.

Any idea what am I talking about?

Seriously, I don't want to get heavily involved in this. Let's focus on the logic of the question 'can God create a rock so big He cannot lift it,' since that seems to be everyone's main interest at the moment.

What that question essentially just asked is can an omnipotent being fail? If it can do all things, then it would also be able to commit failure, which would certainly not be omnipotence. That makes no sense and yes it is, as you say, a paradox. Although not all paradoxes are logical fallacies, this one can be as well as appears to be. Failure cannot be part of omnipotence by the very definition but the question posed required an omnipotent being to fail. The question itself is not logically sound.

Also, there are some things the Bible mentions God cannot do: Lie, sin, tempt. Etc.

Just one way to look at it.

*Go go gadget Lurker mode*

[edit on 11/27/2008 by AshleyD]

In the eyes of god, the universe is static. As he is all knowing and omnipotent, there is nothing he doesn't know. As such, time does not exist, there is nothing that changes.

Take a movie film. Spread it out from end to end. If you were looking at the entire movie at once spread out, then that is how god sees the universe, static and without motion or time.

You have a limited perception. Because you are not all knowing, as you move forward in knowledge you have the illusion of time. Take that same movie film, now show only 1 frame at a time, and continue to show 1 frame at a time until the end. You have now just created change, and motion. The speed in which the frames are shown is run time speed, or the rate of change.

When you watch a movie, you agree to limit your perception and knowledge of whats on the film to create the illusion.

Free will - Do the tracks free the train or enslave the train? The answer is the tracks will only provide the illusion of freedom. As soon as the train decides to go in a direction outside the tracks, he will soon realize he is not free. This is kind of how things work in the world now, you think you are free - until you try to do something that tracks are not provided for.

The only way for free will to exist is for every single possibility to be available. All possibilities. No defined tracks. Surely god is not limited in consciousness to only allow for a single film strip.

The universe is not a single film strip. It is film strip next to film strip, next to film strip. In our limited perspectives, to us it fills like a single strip. From our perspective, time is linear. We sit in our single dimension always.

But, you actually change dimensions all the time. Every new frame of reality you see is actually the next dimension. What decides that next frame is based on the choices you make, which are based on the understandings you have, as well as intent. This is easy to see on a small scale.

Lets say there is a dimension where you are exactly where you are now, but you have raised your arm. To get to this dimension you would just raise your arm. A choice of yours. But what you actually did there subconsciously was figure out a path to get there. If you want to get to the fridge, you figure out a path to get there. You might walk straight to it in the fastest way possible. You may even wonder around lost for awhile before realizing the way to the fridge. But to get to the dimension with you in the fridge, you have to first find the correct path. Simple things like this we do without really thinking about it.

3d is 2d stacked, 4d is 3d stacked and so on. 4d(which we travel through in the illusion of time) is the nearest closest 3d possibilities. The more difference in the dimension you are in, and the further away that dimension is. You raising your arm is closer reality than walking to your fridge for example, the dimension comes quicker. Death and things of that nature are huge jumps well beyond just 4d.

It is your consciousness which moves, not the universe(static). Your consciousness, the state of being, is part of god - the observer(John 14:20). This much should be obvious to people as they talk of what happens to "you" after death when you are no longer in your body.

Now the choices you make have consequences. Otherwise known as you reap what you sow. If you choose to rob a store tomorrow, you're very likely going to end up a dimension with you in prison. If you choose to help someone, you more likely end up in a dimension with a new friend and joy. Easy to see.

And this is where Jesus becomes important. You want to get to heaven, then you need to know the path to get there. No different than the path to the fridge. You will not get to heaven if you break commandments. These commandments are not there just to tell you what to do and make you miserable. They are there because following them is what it takes to live in a type of peaceful and free society. You are kept out not as punishment, but to protect those who do live by the commandments. Just as you were removed from the garden as soon as you were given knowledge of evil. Not as punishment, but to protect the tree of life.

The reason Jesus did what he did was to give you an example to follow. So that you could see the path which needed to be taken to get to heaven. He doesn't tell people to worship him, he tells them to follow the path.

And the deception in this world tries in every way possible to get you to not follow that path. Telling you constantly you are not good enough to follow that path. That you don't really need to walk that path, just accept Jesus as your savior and you need not worry because you will be forgiven for all you do.

Speaking of forgiven, the way you ask for forgiveness is you understand why you were wrong, and then no longer do it again. At which point you will no longer sow the sin, and thus no longer reap it. Your path is that much closer to Jesus, and so is your heart. Did the person who said sorry, ask for forgiveness and then do it again after ever actually ask for forgiveness? Do you believe someone is sorry for what they've done to you after they have done it multiple times? Only when they stop doing it and understand why and how they wronged you were they truly sorry.

Quantum physics and people in science who are daring to no longer ignore consciousness in things are started to see some of these things. the wave of possibilities is really just the nearest dimensions - of which we choose/go into one of those possbilities and it becomes reality as the possibilities close down into the choice(single particle from the wave) taken and new possibilities appear.

reply to post by AshleyD


speak of the devil.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Good Wolf
AshleyD would have been all over this thread if she were here rather than boycotting it.

Just tired. Promise. I already u2u'd the OP with some brief answers on a couple of the questions when I first saw the thread. I don't want to get sucked into another Christian answers thread. They never end and are exhausting and each answer brings on five more. Below the radar and away from the public eye with a one-on-one conversation is much more pleasurable. Good discussion without ego interference.

speak of the devil.

Ahem. Angel. *points to avatar*

[edit on 11/27/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD
Also, there are some things the Bible mentions God cannot do: Lie, sin, tempt. Etc.

Just one way to look at it.

LOL if u don't want to get too involved thats fine... I just had to add this:

If you believe in me, I'll send you to a magical place where all your dreams come true...

That seems to try and tempt a tad.

Hi there, just thought I would add my two cents...

1 cent- I think you are looking at the concept of "Free Will" from the wrong perspective. Its a yin/yan thing.

If God is omnipotent, then he is quite capable of creating multiple "realities/time lines" for every human.

Which reality you end up in is for you to decide. This is how you exercise free will.

If God only allowed a single spiritual life path for every human, then he hasn't really given us free will at all.
We would be just a bunch of fleshy robots mulling around the planet chanting "I hear and obey." Why would god want that? It would be like stacking the deck in a game of solitaire and then gloating when you win.

And the 2nd cent- Yes, i think god could create something so heavy even he couldn't lift it... not sure why though.

And in case you were wondering, no...I am not a bible thumper.

Originally posted by asmeone2
I don't get your poker game logic. You have to play by the rules or it's "cheating." Or it turns into a different game.

But it is only cheating because these are the rules you've agreed to. Nothing stops you really from looking at the cards, except the rules of the game. Just as if god decided to make a rock that is so heavy he can not lift it, he is agreeing to the rule - the rock is so heavy god can not lift it. As he choose the rules for the rock to not be liftable, as long as he tries to lift the rock under those rules, he will not be able to lift the rock. Then, if god chooses to change those rules, he can change the rule so that the rock is liftable.

It's merely a choice if you are all powerful. Only if the choice was not allowed would god not be all powerful. It is a trick question.