Evidence in Scripture disproving god once and for all

reply to post by wash222


I should have added i actually do believe in a higher power(whatever you want to call it) based on my own personal experiences. I just dont buy into most organized religions that have been thrust upon us.

reply to Your right the scriptures says that God created a vessel onto honor and one onto dishonor. Romans 9:21-22 Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

nowhere in the bible does it states that God is giving a free past to heaven. everthing is predestiny and the so-called white man is the vessel that was made unto dishonour. Therefore if your not an israelite there is no way according to the bible you can have salvation, as the bible was not giving to anyone but the israelite. So yes you are right when you say the way the christians present God is wrong, as they teach that all people can be save. If you understood the bible you would see that it is not so, only the israelites will be saved and no they are not those gutter rats living in the land of israel as they are nothing but so called white people.
post by nj2day

Originally posted by asmeone2
I can think of 2 possible criticisms:

This is proof that mMAn wrote the bible, not of God's nature

or

The God of the OT and NT, or at least the understanding therof or his approach towards humanity, is not the same entity.

I don't understand why we would use the Bible to disprove the christian god in the first place, though.

It seems to me that he did it to try and prove that the bible was hippocritical (sp) and thus God does not exist....
As a believer in God, i can tell you that my personal beliefs differ from that of the main church... See the old testimate was written thrue visions, and convorsations with God (for the most part), not as it was occuring (again for the most part).... But the New Testimate (other then Revelations and a couple other books) are letters, and written records, that where taken during the time of Jesus....


Look at it this way,
Old testimate - Story you heard from a friend who heard it from a friend...

New Testimate - News Reporters, telling what is goin on currently

Originally posted by blowfishdl
It's perfectly fine to believe in a God. Until we die we will not- and cannot disprove it.

just like you cannot disprove that there are invisible elves living in my shoes....if you believe in god/deities of any kind then you believe that magic is possible, we know magic isn't possible nobody can make an object literally disappear with a wave of a hand without using trickery, telekinesis is impossible, magic simply doesn't exist and god IS MAGIC so how can god exist if magic isn't real?

Originally posted by wash222
reply to post by wash222

 

I should have added i actually do believe in a higher power(whatever you want to call it) based on my own personal experiences. I just dont buy into most organized religions that have been thrust upon us.

what kind of experience did you have that led you to believe there is an invisible man living in the sky who can do magic?

Ok here is my logical argument against the OP

If god is omnipotend he can do things that are impossible, like failing and not failing at the same time
He should be able to do things that defy all logic if omnipotend right ?

Originally posted by checkitb4uwreckit

Originally posted by wash222
reply to post by wash222

 

I should have added i actually do believe in a higher power(whatever you want to call it) based on my own personal experiences. I just dont buy into most organized religions that have been thrust upon us.

what kind of experience did you have that led you to believe there is an invisible man living in the sky who can do magic?

Whos to say God doesnt live by rules of his own?

Originally posted by Supercertari

This guarantee is given by Christ to the Church in the following verses (and others):
Matthew 16:18-19 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
John 20:22-23 "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

You just skipped across things to make your own point. You did not put the individual verses in their correct context, you put them into your own context.

John 14:26 for example - you attribute that being of the church. it is NOT. And if you hadn't taken the things out of context to create your own context - and thus a lie, you wouldn't have done this.

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

But yet, in your claim what Jesus gives us is as the world giveth(the bible, the church).

Had nothing to do with the church as you claim. And I know this for fact as I experienced this for myself. Along with the vision - not the bible or church, that Jesus says will come. And, it all happened ON THAT DAY after I first realized that Jesus and god are inside me, and that we are all connected with god.

If those verses were meant to be read in the way you present them, then they would have appeared as such, and you would be quoting chapters instead of mixing verses here and there.

Oh, and your quote of Matthew 16:18 and 19. Why don't you include what Jesus says after that?

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

You have distorted the words of Jesus for your own personal points.



[edit on 27-11-2008 by badmedia]

reply to post by nj2day

Let me reply to your initial quote: "Galations (Galatians) 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love."

This verse is not a reference to "free will". The brothers were called to be free of slavery to sin. Then to not insult Christ's sacrifice which paid for their sin by sinning more instead of following Jesus' instruction to do as He says (good).

Your following arguments do not deny God's existence but our limited intellect and associated vocabulary. The dilemma is not God but our attempt to describe or even to fully understand Him. Words like omnipresent and omnipotent are ambiguous to us. The only way they could ever be used by your definitions and usage is as a negative, as in "Nothing can possibly ever be, or ever have been, omnipresent or omnipotent".

The words we use to describe God are probably the best we have because they are the best we can understand. As an example I am able to convince myself at times that I can comprehend "ever will be" but it is hopeless to try to comprehend "always has been" or "infinite distance" even though we routinely use these terms.

There is No religious/spiritual God.

Get over it.

There may be a universal or scientific creator but I promise you, it does not give two shizzzzzzzzzzzes about us.

We are not unique, we are not a masterpiece creation of some holy thing named God or Allah. We are just another species living in this very large & confusing universe.

Some argue "There HAS to be something out there!"

No, no there doesn't

OT says nj2day is (mostly) right!

According to… I Cor. 13:12 which says, “For now we see through a glass … darkly; but then (in the future) face to face: now I know… in part… but then shall I know even as also I am known .”

…Now… means our present state.

…see… means understanding truth like the prophets of old got a peek on various slices of the future.

…through a glass… a mirror, really; the reflection seeming to the eye to be behind the mirror, so that we see it… through… the mirror… between the inadequate knowledge of an object gained by seeing it reflected in a dim mirror (such as ancient mirrors were), compared with the perfect idea we have of it by seeing itself directly.

… darkly… literally, "in enigma." Like Joe Pecsi in the movie JFK. Mirror to the eye, so an "enigma" to the ear. Remember "eye, nor ear" can fully represent the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him." (1 Corinthians 2:9). Also 2 Peter 1:19, where the "light" or candle in a dark place stands in contrast with the "day" dawning. God's word is called a glass or mirror also in 2 Corinthians 3:18.

…then… means “when that which is perfect is come" (See 1 Corinthians 13:10).

…face to face… not merely "mouth to mouth" See (Numbers 12:8).

…know . . . known… the original means, "fully know . . . fully known."

Now we are known by, rather than know, God (1 Corinthians 8:3; Galatians 4:9).

The New Testament acknowledges time and time again the we in the (finite) have a ‘sight’ and 'hearing’ problem…therefore ‘perception’ and ‘understanding’ issues abound.

The other dimension (infinite) brings clarity. I long for that… face-to-face… meeting, but in the interim,

OT’s gonna pursue truth cause there’s joy in the journey, do my below signature everyday to the best of my ability… and eat some more turkey….

God bless all today….Happy Thanksgiving ATS’ers!!!

OT loves some pumpkin pie!

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
There is No religious/spiritual God.

Get over it.

There may be a universal or scientific creator but I promise you, it does not give two shizzzzzzzzzzzes about us.

We are not unique, we are not a masterpiece creation of some holy thing named God or Allah. We are just another species living in this very large & confusing universe.

Some argue "There HAS to be something out there!"

No, no there doesn't

exactly, people are just too stupid and arrogant to admit something sooo obvious...people just have a deep seeded NEED to believe nothing more I think it has a lot to do with hoping there is life after death. If that wasn't promised by religion then there would be NO religion nobody would follow it.

[edit on 27-11-2008 by checkitb4uwreckit]

[edit on 27-11-2008 by checkitb4uwreckit]

Originally posted by nj2day
I have seen many many religious and anti religious posts pop up around here lately...

It always makes me laugh to see that statement about any thing on ATS. There is no more and no less religious talk going on then there has ever been. Maybe you are just noticing it more now then you did before.

So why start a thread like this? What do you hope to gain by attempting to crush peoples beliefs? I seriously want to know. Isn't what your attempting just as bad if not worse then the bible thumping extremist.

There is no malice here no pushing no insulting. this is seriously a question I really want to know the reason somebody starts a thread like this. Did the anger all of the sudden hit you? or did it slowly build until you felt you had to do some thing about it.

reply to post by nj2day


Nice try... The title of your thread is Evidence in scripture disproving god. If anything you used evidence in scripture to disprove scripture.

The following points can also be made against your argument.
1. The bible was written by man, it will never be 100% accurate
2. The bible has been manipulated many times over the years, although the basic message is the same there are a few inconsistencies.
3. Some Hebrew/Greek words are not easily translated into english so the bible may appear to contradict itself where it really does not.
4. It could be argued that you are taking verses out of context to change the meaning.

It is impossible to disprove the existence of God as defined in the bible.

reply to post by centrifugal

The following points can also be made against your argument.
1. The bible was written by man, it will never be 100% accurate
2. The bible has been manipulated many times over the years, although the basic message is the same there are a few inconsistencies.
3. Some Hebrew/Greek words are not easily translated into english so the bible may appear to contradict itself where it really does not.
4. It could be argued that you are taking verses out of context to change the meaning.

It is impossible to disprove the existence of God as defined in the bible.

I think many of us agree with your points

However, there are many Christians who believe the Bible is infallible and in actuality the word of God through man. I believe the OP was addressing Christians who adhere to the Bible in a specific way. More "spiritualistic" Christians believe as you do, and give the Bible some leniency.



Okay, my .02 on this. I think Occam's razor can be applied in two different ways here (pertaining to the Op)

The Christian God exists, but is not omniscient nor omnipotent. However, to maximize the love, hope, adoration, fear, etc. of His believers, He has made Scripture appear that He is both.

The Christian God does not exist, and the Bible is a mix of history and fantasy and its authors used it to explain the world and dictate how they believe someone should live.

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
There is No religious/spiritual God.

Get over it.

There may be a universal or scientific creator but I promise you, it does not give two shizzzzzzzzzzzes about us.

We are not unique, we are not a masterpiece creation of some holy thing named God or Allah. We are just another species living in this very large & confusing universe.

Some argue "There HAS to be something out there!"

No, no there doesn't

Tell me, how in your limited perspective are you able to make such claims? That which you do not see is not to believed?

Because you have not experienced something, it does not exist, and it is impossible that someone else has experienced it?

Do we need to be "trained observers" before it can be real?

You just come into a thread you do not even have an opinion on, and make silly claims without anything even related to the topic. And I'll bet money you don't care for it when someone does it to things you find important.

Originally posted by dooper
Ah. The possible impossibility logic. How may angels can fit on the head of a pin? Can God who created everything uncreate Himself? Useless Eastern questions that have no logic, no understanding, no purpose and no rationale. How can God be three, but one? These same questions you ask were asked a couple thousand years ago. Folks whose personal lives had no meaning, so to give their lives meaning, they came up with impossible logic. Arianism was one of those results.

We already know that there are eleven dimensions. Which dimension?

The real question is - if the true answer were given, are you intelligent enough to understand it?

From what I've seen so far, I wouldn't even go there.

WE know there are 11 dimensions just as much as WE know that there is NO god.

It's a theory. Not a fact. We can no more prove there are 11 dimensions than we can prove anything about quantum physics. Observation leads to a probability. Not a reality.

And I take it that god exists because he both cannot and does at the same time, given your above logic. Which creates an impossible situation.

So the OP puts forward some valid thoughts on the prospect that the christian god does not exist using statements from the bible, and the goal posts move to now validate illogical and redundant concepts.

Thats religion for ya..

Just ran upon this thread!!! Very interesting topic and has displayed some very unusual comments. Touchy at times. When you thread upon some one's faith, it will definitely hit a nerve. This world is very chaotic and our faith in our Creator to make everything right in the end is our hope and we want to be part of the (happy ever after story.) Which I am for also.
I, too, have found many puzzling verses in the Bible, and maybe some of you
explain this..Gen. 4, verse 22..king James....And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: One of US, Who is US? And why be afraid that man would get access to that knowledge? It appears that God and the Us were discussing this dilema of man being able to become immortal as They. This possibility was not an option, in verse 23 ..Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, In verse 24..after he drove the man out, he made sure the humans couldn't get back in.!! Some pretty impressive measures taken, Cherubims, with a flaming sword, blocking every way back to the tree of life!!! Just thinking!!