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Are you a Christian or a Paulian?

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posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 10:16 AM
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reply to post by badmedia
 




Jesus taught the individual people were the authority. Jesus taught that those who lived by gods law where signs of god. He actually taught anarchy, and that is why the powers of the time killed him. He threatened their power.


I like how you put that.


One liners suck,and not in a good way.



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 01:41 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


Hi,

Hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving.


I don't teach anything. It is impossible for me to teach anyone anything.


Come now, we all teach in one way or another. I've even read that some use words.

There is only 1 real teacher(god in all his forms),...


"God in all it's forms." You've repeatedly mentioned the first words you said after your initial awakening: I'm god and I'm arguing with myself.

So you DO teach!

...that is not a choice to follow, that is a fact.


So, then, let's at least be honest with ourselves. We all teach in one way or another. And you do too.

Sort of like the whole - thou shall not tempt the lord, it is more appropriate to say - thou can not tempt the lord.


That comment is perhaps best to leave to another conversation.

At most I can merely propose questions that will get them to seek.


Ever consider that some things might be premature? What is to happen prior to this? What would happen to these individuals who have not yet prepared themselves to be the bride?

You seek by asking questions. If you do not ask questions, then you do not seek.


I guess your seeking ends when it comes to Paul? No need to answer that as it is already too apparent.

I think Jesus has a reason when he says - "At that day ye shall know" in John 14:20.


Of course he does. And, also he has a reason for saying: that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. John 17:21

What do you suppose that means, that they may all be one? Does being one occur when those who have been called points to one of God's anointed and essentially say: that one is a fake?

Or, could it be that the one who is pointing is lacking the knowledge that the other one has, which just might be at a higher level?

It has been said by some that the Gospel is so simple that a five year old can understand it.

Yet, Peter has said that Paul is hard to understand. It is easy to criticize what isn't understood. Much easier than reaching and seeking for understanding.

Why might it be that Paul is hard to understand? Could it be because he had extensive training in the oral torah prior to his calling that the other apostles did not have in their background?

That is the real basis for understanding the bible, until you know and under that, the rest is just reciting based on memory.


Really? Is it? Or is it just the basis for understanding only those parts that you want to? Those parts that give authority to your particular understandings?

When you understand that, then the commandments make sense. And go from someone telling you to do something, to something you will want to follow.


I understand that, though, do you not know that there are babes in Christ who have to first learn to turn over, to crawl and then to walk after crawling, which then involves multiple falls, bumps and bruises? Even when the walking becomes easier stumbles occur. There are lessons to be learned in Jesus' example of carrying his own cross to the top of that hill. He even had to let someone else carry it for awhile.

To require a babe to begin walking even before they are able to turn over or to crawl will greatly hamper their development.

This, at times, I think you overlook.

Seeking is all important I agree, and it remains important even after being found. Yes, being found... you did not find, did you? It was a gift, wasn't it? Don't you think the giftor knows when to give the gift?

"Anyone who in discussion relies upon authority uses, not his understanding, but rather his memory." - Leonardo da Vinci


What about using authority to back up one's own understandings?

How, when or why this happens is not up to me, nor could I predict it. But it doesn't come from the bible, it comes only from Jesus/God in a vision.


Not only is it not up to you, you don't understand why it happens when it does... except the part that it occurs only after seeking.

It is certainly not my place to decide who has had what experience, who is being honest about their experiences, and how is just appealing and wanting to fit in. Other than to say those things happen.


What things happen? That others lie about these things?

There are those who can tell who has had experiences before even being told that they have. As well as being able to tell those who were born with an experience before this life they are living now. As well as being able to tell who those have never had an experience and don't need one to understand also.

But I have no doubt that Jesus did what he did so that people could see the example and follow the path.


That is good. Jesus' path began with a baptism, followed by his sojourn into the wilderness to be tempted and to repent of all those things, followed by his transfiguration, followed by his ego death and ultimately followed by his resurrection, with the result that he can reconstruct a body at will... just as some of the saints have been known to bi-locate.

Yes, Jesus' life provided a template so that people could see the template and follow it. Each point on that path is just as important as any other point. The problems arise when the point that we may have personally arrived at becomes the ultimate and everyone else has it all wrong.

And then, there are those who need to spend lifetimes in the stage of repentance before ever seeing their body of light being woven about them as was done in Jesus' transfiguration. Then, there are others who have to spend lifetimes to defeat their ego.

Jesus made that point very clear and there is nothing valid Paul can say that changes it.


And, conversely, there's nothing valid that you can say that will ever invalidate Paul. He knew things that you could not possibly yet know. Especially since you will not seek to understand that which is hard to understand about Paul's writings.

I had only suggested that you reconsider your take on Paul because it would be helpful to you. Just set those verses aside that you think contradict Jesus until you are ready to seek understanding on them.

May the love and awe of God be with you forever.



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by Deaf Alien
In these thesis, Christianity is formulated around Jesus and his philosophy, as spirituality should be.

There's no judgment and punishment from God, only love and compassion.


when did jesus EVER say there wouldnt be judgement or punishment? it sounds like cherry picking to me.



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 



John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."


It appears that the punishment is the indirect aftermath of not being saved by your belief in God.. so it's not a punishment per se, but the lack of the reward.

But then there is this...


John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.


Again, judging the World, is just a consequence of saving the World?


John 8:11 "And Jesus said unto her(the adulterer), Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."


For those that believe Jesus is God, then this would be God saying "I am not condeming (judging) you." And then God promotes a sinless path...

*So perpahps there is no direct judgment(condemnation) from God, only that the unrepented sinner is unable to attain God's Kindgom, because ones sin-filled soul cannot see the way to God's Kingdom.*

I am sure you can counter-argue this, or show Biblical passages to the contrary
I was just offering my thoughts on the matter.


[edit on 28-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by Incarnated
 


I will not be drawn into research on this thread, lol. But, I spent so much time reading about these subjects, and a lot of this was prior to the computer for me.
I went through my childhood Church's library (it was Catholic) and read the dryest theological arguments explaining differences between the eagles of the various denominations. I still wasn't satisfied with what I had read, besides my questions weren't answered, and the few who tried made me think they were the devil, because that didn't pass for anything good in my books. In any case, I read books by nuns, particularly, feminist nuns who discussed the things that were patriarchal in the bible, and the politics behind them. Paul came up an awful lot in this.

Now, in the end, I even read something about Paul truly working for either the Jews or Rome, and being a double agent. Its quite funny the things I've read. What I do know is this, Jesus resonates with an inner heart chakra feeling of the presence of the Creator. The rest, save for a few memorable and wonderful passages here and there don't.

When I was a pre-teen, and I had discovered that God dwells within and the small still voice within, I was so addicted to the feeling of Presence in the word (about Jesus) that I attended Church searching for that feeling. I spend a lifetime on my journey, because there is nothing like that. But, most of what is passing as religion isn't nice.

God isn't judgmental, isn't here to punish people. We're on a very long journey to learn everything we can and grow, especially to care about everyone's feelings and happiness. If one person is feeling pain, confusion, sorrow. We need to turn over every stone, do everything we can to help free just that one, even if that one is Lucifer or the Devil himself. He is me. I am him. Everyone is connected.

If one suffers, we all resonate with that pain. There can be no losses. I've known that since I was a little child, and have argued with priests about it. There may be lower dimensional place in the short run, but in the long run, no one stays there for long.

[edit on 28-11-2008 by mystiq]



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 05:04 PM
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reply to post by mystiq
 


Paul did things! There is no argument there. Those things and research are pointless because both our things and research can mirror eachother if factual. It's the things you can't see that factor in. You percieve paul did things for this reason because your biases to believe that was the reason paul did the things. However if you choose to believe a higher and more spiritualized meaning to the things that were done maybe you'd see that I'm right. You are thinking paul did the things he did for ill will reasons. Paul was just a man. You say his vision of God was untrue and that is the reason he did the things he did. However I believe his vision of God was true, and he was a man, who did things, to pass the event through the ages.

Same things, diffrent perspective and reasoning for the things done.

But let me ask you this. If I were able to give you a clear vision of things of GOD what would you do to get those things through to the ages ahead? Who might sit uninformed 2000 years from now falsely judging your intent for the reasons you did the things you did?



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by Incarnated
However if you choose to believe a higher and more spiritualized meaning



You assume because she doesn't agree with you that Paul was divinely inspired, that it would mean she also doesn't believe in a 'higher spiritual meaning'?

You assume too much.

Millions believe in God or a 'higher spiritual meaning', but do not believe Paul was divinely inspired. Including myself, and I have always believed in God.



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 05:14 PM
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Actually, I personally think he did a 100 percent turnaround and became a much better man than he started out. This is my opinion and the reason I bring that up, is that to me, so much is obscured in the Bible by the politics or worldly thinking of the time. And the things that I find very dark in the Bible, the prejudice against women, homosexuals, the lack of human rights, the way of dealing with conquered races, slaughtering everyone including the women and infants, everything about that is so dark, it doesn't lead to any spiritual feelings in me.

Edit to add: a big difference for me is that Paul is a man, whereas even if I've just bought into a fairy tale, I believe Jesus is Immanuel, but truly from the real hidden and not very well known loving God, that has been misconstrued in the Bible.

[edit on 28-11-2008 by mystiq]



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 05:39 PM
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Mystiq,
you are a prime candidate for me to one day bloviate on
my Consistent Christian dogma. I too argued with Roman Catholic priests as a child and have developed the most easily understood Christianity as there probably is. Not a single hypocrisy or contradiction. An answer for almost everything and every situation. You probably are familiar with Aquinas and his natural law theory. I discovered that I wasn't the first to think like I do after learning about his Summa theo...
.....what I would really really apreciate is if you could think of a question that you still struggle with. I need a real hard one because my dogma is only as strong as the hardest question to answer. Now if a hard core atheist reads this too, then I would equally want the impossible question...
....and if anyone knows of a thread that is out there that does not involve the tired old cut and paste scripture stuff, let me know. I need to be challenged by logical reason not misinterpreted scripture.
Once again...Paul is the father of born again Christian's so he is huge for them. He is a neat dude to the rest of us.



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by L.I.B.
Come now, we all teach in one way or another. I've even read that some use words.

There is only 1 real teacher(god in all his forms),...


"God in all it's forms." You've repeatedly mentioned the first words you said after your initial awakening: I'm god and I'm arguing with myself.

So you DO teach!


I knew you were going to say this when I said I didn't teach. I don't teach, look at how many people don't get what I say. And there is nothing I can say to those people either to make them understand. To teach is to bring new understanding. I can't make John 14:20 happen to people, I can't bring that understanding. Just like nobody could bring any real understanding to me until that happened. People agree and disagree with me based on what they already understand.

At most, I can point out the wrongs of those without understanding, and hopefully get them to seek for their own understandings. Understandings can not be given, it's up to the person to ask their own questions and get answers. That is not something I can do.




So, then, let's at least be honest with ourselves. We all teach in one way or another. And you do too.


I think I am being honest with myself by knowing my limits. And I sure do not want to claim responsibility for something I am not responsible for. I sure don't want people to look to me for the answers, I don't have your answers, I have mine.

For example, my wife who is christian and went to church always etc. I would tell her these things, and then she would just repeat them back to me(and it drove me nuts - I tell her do not repeat, understand instead). I knew she didn't actually understand. But it made her think and ask questions. And then just at random times should would say things where I knew she had understanding - and it didn't come from me. As she was saying them in her own words, not mine.



Ever consider that some things might be premature? What is to happen prior to this? What would happen to these individuals who have not yet prepared themselves to be the bride?


Yes, but as I said before, only those who are ready or already have understanding will be affected by what I say, it's not up to me on who gets it and when. If it was, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I do eventually believe that everyone will get it. I know people think evil is going to be destroyed by force, but I think evil will be destroyed by truth, not by more evil. There is a reason evil relies on manipulation and lies IMO. I think Paul is an example of this.



I guess your seeking ends when it comes to Paul? No need to answer that as it is already too apparent.


My seeking never included the bible, my understandings didn't come from the bible either, I just see what I learned repeated there in the words of Jesus.

My problem is not so much with paul, he obviously made mistakes but we all do and it's not my place to judge him. My problem with Paul is that people follow Pauls understandings instead of following Jesus with their own personal understandings. My problem is that people will judge people as myself wrong based not on what Jesus said and taught, but what Paul said and taught. In many ways, I see Paul as facing the same problems the people who founded the USA and the constitution faced - making peace within those with sin. Paul compromised way to much for my tastes, but these compromises are considered truth rather than compromises for the time period. It's no so much that Paul is the problem, as it is people who follow Paul over Jesus. I see Paul as the leader of those without understanding. To keep them in line until the day when they do get understanding.




Of course he does. And, also he has a reason for saying: that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. John 17:21

What do you suppose that means, that they may all be one? Does being one occur when those who have been called points to one of God's anointed and essentially say: that one is a fake?

Or, could it be that the one who is pointing is lacking the knowledge that the other one has, which just might be at a higher level?


Everything is connected. Only our perception separates. This is why I say the universe is static. Instead of focusing on each individual frame of the movie like we do not, if you looked at the entire movie film you see each is connected to the previous. The illusion of time is what separates them in our perception. Instead of seeing the earth just where it is now, imagine it on the film outside your perception.

God/consciousness is like a tree. We are like a unique leaf on that tree, but we are all connected back branch, which is connected to the trunk and so on. In our perception we see just the leaves. On that day, you see and understand the tree, and thus the connection. Then once you see that, the reasons things are said, and why the commandments are as they are make sense. It becomes not something that you must do out of fear of punishment, but rather something you understand why is needed. I don't follow the commandments out of fear of god, I follow them because I understand why they need to be followed.



It has been said by some that the Gospel is so simple that a five year old can understand it.


This I disagree with. There is a reason children are exempt from most things. There is a difference between repeating what has been told, and understanding that which is being told. As Einstein said - any fool can know, the point is to understand. Sure a 5 year old may repeat - Jesus loves you, but he surely isn't really going to understand how or why.

I ran out of characters, I will have to put the rest in another reply.


[edit on 28-11-2008 by badmedia]



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 06:15 PM
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sweeeeeeeet.
another person that is at least in the same room with me, Badmedia.
(doesn't imply I know better or more but just that my dogma would be understood and could be refined by his understanding) I thirst for more, maybe I should read a couple of these posts...but I just can't take scripture quotes to support a position.
....the leaves on the tree....could use that. great post, going to look at your previous ones.



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 06:26 PM
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My seeking never included the bible, my understandings didn't come from the bible either, I just see what I learned repeated there in the words of Jesus.


This I disagree with. There is a reason children are exempt from most things. There is a difference between repeating what has been told, and understanding that which is being told. As Einstein said - any fool can know, the point is to understand. Sure a 5 year old may repeat - Jesus loves you, but he surely isn't really going to understand how or why.

I ran out of characters, I will have to put the rest in another reply.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------THE ABOVE IS NOT ME BUT BADMEDIA---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

[edit on 28-11-2008 by badmedia]

Yes, the Gospel is easy enough for a 5 year old to understand. In fact we are all born with the knowledge we need to know about the "law" it is natural law. Now of course it may not be communicated by a 5 year old that which they understand, but they do.
The older you get the harder it is to understand......yeah, read that again.
What adult on this site, reading this, understands; "thou shalt not kill"...sounds pretty damn simple to me. Yet you have your crowd that says "kill" is different from "murder" abortion is different from capital punishment and depending on your religious misunderstandings...any variety there of.
Now Paul.....many born agains think he speaks for Christ himself and so whatever Paul says Christ has said.....once again, a 5 year old probably has a more accurate understanding then those who follow or think Paul speaks for Christ.
Natural law is universal and it is not learned. It is your birth connection to God....you spend the rest of your life either trying to break away from it or find it with blind eyes and minds.

[edit on 28-11-2008 by Res Ipsa]



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by Res Ipsa
 


The biggest argument I had was concerning the belief taught by the Church, and pretty much inarguable as it is in the Bible as well, that anyone goes to hell.
I refused my first communion, until he could tell me that he didn't know if anyone was in hell. This didn't happen at 6, because I had only started going to the Church as a pre-teen and dragged my heels about everything for a few years, reading many books before I finally took some short makeup courses. He asked me what I thought hell was for then, but it didn't matter to me. A lower dimensional prison for dangerous people, perhaps. But everyone eventually chooses to pick up their pieces and start back on their journey again.

The idea that God asked Abraham to kill his son, God depopulated the world with a flood, God killed a man for touching the ark, God told them to kill all the conquered people, including the women and children. The book is dark, I'm sorry. We aren't here for that, we're here to love and accept people, work with diplomacy for win win situations, empower others, and provide opportunities for our children to make up their own minds, and change them too, about things, and problem solve. If one person is suffering, we should be concerned and take action. Yet , most of us on this planet are suffering, and we vote in the guys who keep on doing this to people.

I was once researching things about early Christianity, due to a personal experience, and stumbled upon a certain early prominent figure who shared my belief in everyone being saved. There was actually a name for it, but I've tried googling many different key words and never found that information again. In his case, the Church ended up ex-communicating him for his beliefs, and then re-instated him. And after that he was cannonized as a saint when he died. But I have read that St. Augustine was one of the main champions for a permanent hell, so until that time it was not commonly held by Christians.



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
In these thesis, Christianity is formulated around Jesus and his philosophy, as spirituality should be.

There's no judgment and punishment from God, only love and compassion.


when did jesus EVER say there wouldnt be judgement or punishment? it sounds like cherry picking to me.


Miriam...I remember you. My memory says that you were the chosen one of all the scripture people that I would take the time to read. It is bold for someone to say that there is no judgment and punishment from God and only love and compassion. They of course are right but that doesn't mean there does not exist punishment. For me, to be allowed to daily choose evil over love is punishment. You always always are punished for choosing evil...some call it Karma. God doesn't do it, we do it. or in this case me. I have the choice, million times a day, in everything I do. Every decision made is either to love or not to love, to some degree. You would drive yourself mad if you thought about it before each decision you made. Choosing to watch Springer or American idol. or spending quality time with your child or just time. Anger or Love....on and on.....
The rules and laws that God gives are not to be understood as laws given from sovereign to a people. They are given so you understand how to live the life you were created to live and maximize your potential and your happiness. If everyone chose to love the word charity would have no meaning......anyways....nice to see you again....but God does not punish.....because Love does not punish. (in its most empirical and perfect form) don't give me the "tough love" argument as in parents with kids...that is "real world" "imperfect world" reality love here on Earth. God does not have those restraints.



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 07:06 PM
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reply to post by mystiq
 


Mystic..........
Hell by far is one of the easiest to explain. Heck even John Paul the II agreed with me years after I blasted my Confirmation instructors about it.
( I wanted my confirmation name to be Judas...long story)
Anyway.....John Paul did say it better than me. "Hell is not so much a place, as it is a condition"
Hell does exist in a sense if you can understand complete seperation from God. 1) God is everywhere at all times. 2) where God isn't is in non-existence.
Kind of a crappy punishment if you ask me or anyone else that holds on to a human sense of justice. Those in Hell don't even know they did anything wrong! Where is the punishment in that? Who goes to Hell? Those that reject God. Freewill to the end baby! But for those that need to rely on the Bible maybe they would understand it better this way; Everyone will meet Christ when they die. He will say "yes, I know you, welcome" or "no, I don't know you." sorry. Of course there will be a huge line of fundamentalist arguing that "hey, I did everything I was taught to do" Christ will say, "you didn't feed me when I was hungry or clothe me when I was freezing...I came to you many countless of times during your life and you rebuked me over and over....but what is worse, you punished and did not accept me for who I was....why should I accept you now?"
(well something like that if you believe in scripture, they of course reject that interpretation just like the pharisises of old)
The worst thing that could ever happen to anyone is to be rejected by God and completely and forever be seperated from him. POOF! gone.
Atheist would agree that Hell was created to keep people in line, and to obey the laws, to control them. It still is used for that even in modern society, no wonder they think we are crazy.
Noah's ark......sure it probably historically happened but in an isolated part of the world over there and the story was told like so much of our history is told....liberal embelishments.
God talking to people and telling them to kill (David and Saul's story is a hoot!) and testing people. Shouldn't we today be jealous of God's everyday contact with these people of the past and not one visit to us. Where is my burning bush?
You know in your heart which God is better portrayed in the Bible. You never needed to be taught that. Natural law once again. It would be nice to convince a person of that once in a while but don't let that discourage you. Ironically people like us and even some agnostics are closer to a personal relationship with God then those that think if they spend 16hrs a day reading and memorizing the Bible will reach enlightenment.
Now for the purely analytical person.....100% Love is God 0% is nothing, non-existence. In order for Hell to exist it would have to fall inbetween....but alas....God can not be in Hell, there is no love in hell, God can only not be where nothing exists. Not fair? That can only be said by those that don't believe Heaven is all that it is cracked up to be. If it is then I am sure that everyone there wouldn't trade a day and would pity those not there....no pity?.....how do you pity someone that you don't know ever existed? Are there alot of people in Hell? I don't know, are there alot of people that in their hearts said, screw you God I don't want anything to do with you and you better respect my freewill.
Do we take freewill for granted or what? Can't love without it.



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by L.I.B.
Yet, Peter has said that Paul is hard to understand. It is easy to criticize what isn't understood. Much easier than reaching and seeking for understanding.

Why might it be that Paul is hard to understand? Could it be because he had extensive training in the oral torah prior to his calling that the other apostles did not have in their background?

That is the real basis for understanding the bible, until you know and under that, the rest is just reciting based on memory.


I do understand Paul. But I submit to you that anyone who follows Paul over Jesus does not actually understand Paul. Which is the real issue.



Really? Is it? Or is it just the basis for understanding only those parts that you want to? Those parts that give authority to your particular understandings?


You can not tell me anything to get me to believe anything. There is no authority higher than my own understanding. If you wish to make me believe something, you will have to make me understand why it is so.

I know Jesus says blessed are those who follow him(not paul) only on faith. But I am not one of those people, nor does he say those people have more understanding. As I have been given the ability to understand things that I put my mind too, I think it would be silly to not use it.

So to get me to believe you have to provide understanding. Rahter than telling me - oh you are just taking to the parts I understand, address the individual points being made against Paul, why he we do that and then I can have understanding. As I understand Paul as an example of what happens when you let the knowledge go to the head, and history as the lesson on what happens when you do that, I do not see the understandings that he is to be followed.

Has it been considered that Paul - who refused to accept himself as anything less than an authority, before and after becoming a follower of Jesus could just be taking the parts of Jesus that fit him? Of course not, it's been accepted not based on the merits of his understanding, but by force and persecution of those who did not accept him, just as he did before becoming a follower. Or am I to reject this history because it doesn't fit the understanding that paul is right?

Paul and those who follow paul have become the example of those who think that force and authority are the only ways to rid the world of evil. What they fail to realize is that you do not rid the world of evil by killing it, you merely replace the evil and become and evil greater evil yourself. And history has proven this to be fact. From not only the church, but also in the USA, where the teachings of paul are widely followed.

Where as Jesus taught that you rid the world of evil by not being or becoming the evil yourself. That you do it by showing people the truth, and the way to live. Jesus did not do what Paul does. Jesus did not try to become an authority that forced people into these beliefs, even if he could have - and he could have because it was offered to him. Jesus said let those with ears hear, which are those who are ready. To force it on someone is to try and harvest a crop before it is ready, before they have the ears to hear. Even worse, when based on someone elses understanding and perspective rather than it's own it's like the corn trying to force the wheat sprouting corn. Only if the wheat takes the understandings that are for it, and not the corn, will the wheat grow. No matter how much each is based in the same soil, and no matter how much each will follow and try to get as much light as possible.




I understand that, though, do you not know that there are babes in Christ who have to first learn to turn over, to crawl and then to walk after crawling, which then involves multiple falls, bumps and bruises? Even when the walking becomes easier stumbles occur. There are lessons to be learned in Jesus' example of carrying his own cross to the top of that hill. He even had to let someone else carry it for awhile.

To require a babe to begin walking even before they are able to turn over or to crawl will greatly hamper their development.

This, at times, I think you overlook.


Not at all do I overlook. You do not gain knowledge of hot or cold by only ever experiencing hot. Only by experiencing both hot and cold can you understand either. The church tries to provide a hand that will never let the baby fall, bump or stumble, and by doing so the baby is unable to learn the lessons of those falls, bumps and stumbles and becomes ignorant. The baby learns to be dependent on that hand, rather than how to stand on it's own(understandings). Even worse, the church stands up and claims - look at these wonderful things I am doing, help support me so that this baby shall never fall. And then the function of the church becomes the most important thing, as all systems are designed in ways to protect that system, and system protection is priority 1 because without the system, the service will die, and the baby will fall.

On a higher level however, you could say this is just a bump in itself which provides deeper understanding, and in that way so is evil. Nothing makes a white dot stick out more than a black background. But I am not here to provide or be the lesson, I am here to learn the lesson and find the white dot.



Seeking is all important I agree, and it remains important even after being found. Yes, being found... you did not find, did you? It was a gift, wasn't it? Don't you think the giftor knows when to give the gift?


Thus why I am not a teacher.





What about using authority to back up one's own understandings?


Truth is authority, I do use truth to back up my own understandings. The first step to wisdom is honesty.



Not only is it not up to you, you don't understand why it happens when it does... except the part that it occurs only after seeking.


Again why I am not the teacher.



What things happen? That others lie about these things?


Sure, people lie about it all the time. I lied when I was a kid when I was saved, tried to believe it and all that. Because I thought something was wrong with me that I didn't. There is a video somewhere, if I come across it again I'll post it, you may have seen it. But they take a group of people, and 5 of them purposely give the wrong answer, and the test subject lies and purposely gives the wrong answer for fear of being different, and not trusting himself.



There are those who can tell who has had experiences before even being told that they have. As well as being able to tell those who were born with an experience before this life they are living now. As well as being able to tell who those have never had an experience and don't need one to understand also.


You can not see what the person see's, it all depends on how well the person is explaining it. And then you will be looking at not the images, but what understandings what they say is based on.



I had only suggested that you reconsider your take on Paul because it would be helpful to you. Just set those verses aside that you think contradict Jesus until you are ready to seek understanding on them.


Ignoring the corruption on the fruit doesn't make the fruit uncorrupted. If Paul was a fruit of Jesus, then I would not see corruption. All I see in the church and in paul is a corrupted tree holding up a cross and fake images of Jesus(which btw, portray him as physically beautiful, as the anti-christ is said to be). It is already clear to me who will be told to depart. All you are asking me to do is to seek justification in the works of paul, when there is no justification for breaking commandments, only forgiveness when you no longer break them.

If you still believe I should seek further, please let me know the questions needed to be asked in order to seek.





[edit on 28-11-2008 by badmedia]



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by Res Ipsa
Yes, the Gospel is easy enough for a 5 year old to understand. In fact we are all born with the knowledge we need to know about the "law" it is natural law. Now of course it may not be communicated by a 5 year old that which they understand, but they do.


Well, it's not really the gospel that brings the 5 year old understanding though. How many school kids can repeat E=MC2? How many actually understand what it means and how to use it? And how can you really tell the difference between the 2? This is something I deal with a good bit when talking about these things. Yes, this person is right when they say Jesus is my savior. But they are not right when it comes to understanding how and why. I should not say a 5 year old can't get it, but rather that most 5 year olds don't in the way it is presented. I certainly didn't. I was like - thats great, can we turn some cartoons on?



The older you get the harder it is to understand......yeah, read that again.


I can agree with this. It becomes much harder to drop something you've accepted your entire life. We could actually talk about this, as it relates to something I learned while trying to design intelligence(not just ai which is artifical intelligence, as it is merely following patterns to repeat what it is told, not actually thinking). There is a reason for death and such, and this is part of that reason.



What adult on this site, reading this, understands; "thou shalt not kill"...sounds pretty damn simple to me. Yet you have your crowd that says "kill" is different from "murder" abortion is different from capital punishment and depending on your religious misunderstandings...any variety there of.
Now Paul.....many born agains think he speaks for Christ himself and so whatever Paul says Christ has said.....once again, a 5 year old probably has a more accurate understanding then those who follow or think Paul speaks for Christ.
Natural law is universal and it is not learned. It is your birth connection to God....you spend the rest of your life either trying to break away from it or find it with blind eyes and minds.


This I all agree with. These justifications for killing are deception. Thou shall not kill is like you say - pretty straight forward. I certainly didn't see mention of exceptions. And I certainly didn't see Jesus(God) making exceptions even when god himself was being persecuted.



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 09:46 PM
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"....To every [thing there is] a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up [that which is] planted; Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; Ecc 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; Ecc 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; Ecc 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.


When you take the whole word and in context and read with the guidance of the Holy Spirit as Yeshuah instructs - then you receive the revealed word - short of that you are guessing and with your own convenience, conventions of culture and your own spin in mind...you are "fishing" with your natural mind instead of seeing with your spiritual mind -

Yeshuah said

- Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


So there tis....
you may read and analyze till the cows come home but without the Holy Spirit and your active participation in asking and receiving guidance from same - wont' touch you....



posted on Nov, 28 2008 @ 10:06 PM
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I believe perfect knowledge is all the punishment we all receive, and then we get healed. I believe in the absolute evolution and advancement of everyone including demons/fallen angels, lower dimensionals, whatever they are. For the collective knowledge base, both good guy roles and bad guy roles instruct the soul, though advancement occurs through choosing good.

I do believe, reluctantly, in a lower dimension and again, reluctantly, in the enemy or rather fallen angels, demons whatever they are called or wish to call themselves. Though the biblical, or perhaps not, since that's not even truly clear and Christians misuse things that were never meant in the way they were adapted by the Church, but I never accepted the Christian explanation for angels that wanted to fight with the Whole of Creation, who is to me, the most intelligent, loving and wonderful Existence there is. I used to think it was all merely some kind of human negative creation, some psi poltergiest energy that was tormenting us, but have changed my mind due to some strange dreams and a experience with what I call the enemy, and a rescue by St. Michael. So I had a kind of classic experience that surprised the heck out of me and sent me on a long search for some answers about the fallen ones. They're going to be saved too. They're going to chose personal happiness and growth and sanity and joy too!

We're all one, and I'm not limping home with one of my arms missing. And I have never given my yes to anything that is psychotic which is what I consider most people's religions to depict. Just love everyone and ask for their evolution and happiness. One thing I do think is right in the Bible is where it says, God will grant every prayer that is good. Asking for everyone's salvation is good. Already been done. Phwew, now that that nightmares over.



posted on Nov, 29 2008 @ 12:25 AM
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where did jesus say the temple was? did he say it was in
a book or a building? no, he said it was your body.
that's the temple. the shekinah no longer resides in a
building but inside the believer. how did early christians
become christians? was it from reading a book? no,
because the bible wasn't even compiled for the first
couple centuries.

long story short: you become a christian, not by
reading a book or going to a building, but by
inviting the holy spirit to make your body a
temple of God. no book is even necessary.
only word of mouth and willingness to believe
and accept. but even word of mouth isn't
necessary if the holy spirit chooses to speak
to you directly. we put way too much emphasis
on a book and not enough on the holy spirit
who is already dwelling inside the believer ---
that's your ultimate connection -- mainline to
the Almighty. the book is interesting.
it's has good ideas, it has thought provoking prophecy,
helpful teachings and guidelines but as a
believer you never needed it - since you have the
real deal residing inside you and he's not suffering
from editing and myriad translations.



[edit on 29-11-2008 by undo]







 
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