Are you a Christian or a Paulian?

reply to post by badmedia

And you think that that was what Paul was doing? Being stoned and left for dead, imprisoned, outcast by his Jewish family and brothers and more? He suffered at the hands of worldly powers. All because he was sent, as an apostle by and for Jesus.

We can all give conjecture on what we would or wouldn't do, until actually being asked by God to do something. Personally, through experience, I would advise not going against what is requested. Yet, you judge another man for what you have never experienced. Something comes to mind about walking a mile in someone elses shoes...

See, God never told me to do anything. Instead, I was given understanding and what I do is of my own free will. It is my choice. Even though I gave my will to god, nothing has changed except my understandings. Of which I now see for myself what to do.

Just because God has never asked you to do anything, does that automatically mean that God never asks someone to do something?

Saying god told me to do it, is submission to authority, which Paul teaches.

I think perhaps that you do not know of what you speak about here.

God gives free will for a reason, if he didn't want you to have it and just do what he says, you would have been born that way.

Why do you assume that free will is not in operation? Didn't I say I once did NOT do something that was asked of me? Free will exists regardless. I'd like to take the opportunity to mention that I did this prior to my first vision and subsequent experiences.

God gives not as the world gives, he gives knowledge and understanding, and from that knowledge and understanding you know what to do on your own.

That would be all fine and good, but it ignores the function of prophets.

But they aren't getting their own understandings. They are not having their own vision. They are replacing it with how Paul understands it, because they do not actually understand Jesus. Their own understandings come from their own personal relationship with god. Remember, Jesus talked aobut having a personal relationship with god, where as it was thought that could only be done with priests before. And yet, Paul does the things where the people have a relationship with god through the church/priests instead of a personal relationship.

Have you ever considered how much more difficult it is to have faith than it is to know? Before the days of Noah, people lived nearly a thousand years. After the flood, peoples lifespans were reduced to being not greater than 120. I bring this up because once a person starts on their path to God, it can take up to seven lifetimes to become perfected. Before the flood, this could occur in one lifetime.

Not everyone can have visions. Not everyone can know and instead can only have faith and trust in God and his promises... as limited as their understandings of those promises might be. This is far more difficult than being in your position. Yet, I'll give you this: just as it was in Jesus', Paul's and the other apostles time we are at the end of an age and there are more people at the end of ages ready to know and become perfected.

A verse from Revelation comes to mind: Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy." Revelation 22:11

reply to post by badmedia

Is there truly more than 1 understanding in what Jesus did? Or are there just multiple ways of expressing that understanding?

I don't know yet that you know what Jesus did.

Jesus doesn't just tell them not to make themselves leaders, he says why. That we are all equal.

No, he didn't say that we were all equal. What was said, was:

10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

11 "But the greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted. Matthew 23:10-12

You forgot the part about being Brethren(brothers) which is mentioned in another place which has slipped my mind at the moment. You are more knowledgeable of the bible than I am, so you probably know what I am talking about. If not, I suppose I can go find it again for you.

It's in the same chapter and the context is to not consider yourself better than another.

Do those who have had the seed of the kingdom of God planted know Christ fully, partially, maybe only just vaguely?

Well I'd say this all depends on how close the person's heart is to Jesus. Which is in direct relation to how much that seed has grown. When you drive into a new city, you know it only partially and vaguely. After you've lived in that city for 20 years, then when someone stops and asks for directions you can easily point them in the right direction.

Okay, so the planting of this seed is like driving into a new city and maybe only having a map to navigate it, which are not always easy to read. It can be easy to get lost in this new city. So, do we agree then that at the planting of this seed, Christ is only known vaguely?

Do all have Christ born within them? After being born, does that mean they are mature in Christ?

Well, assuming they are conscious beings(I do), then yes they are the spirit of god and will eventually return.

This response is the reason I asked about your view on whether the soul and spirit was the same. With your above answer, I don't get an idea of whether you think that all have Christ born within them, or if they are automatically mature in their knowledge of Christ when Christ is first born within them... when the seed breaks ground and comes into the light.

I too believe that all have the spirit of God within them, the christ seed, but that not all are aware of this spirit. After it's planted we become partially aware of it, and while it is in the ground, we cannot even ever be sure that it will sprout, but if it is to do so, the conditions have to be just right for it to live. If it does live, and the seed has grown sufficiently, it breaks through and becomes a fragile seedling.

A seedling is not a sapling and a sapling is not a tree. A maturing process takes place after the seed sprouts into the light. At some point in this growth the Holy Spirit is given wherein more knowledge, understanding and compassion is gained.

This small seedling can grow to the size of a tree in which the birds of the air can nest in. The birds of the air is referring to angels, wherein the baptized/crucified into Christ, the Son of Man, can direct them as Jesus could.

About your response to my question. It leads me to ask you, what happens to the mortal personality, which is the soul as you've told me, when it has not joined with the Spirit? What happens to the soul that has joined with the Spirit?

The bible often refers to men as trees, and then also as grass too. Yes, the spirit always returns to God. The question is: how does the soul do so?

Have all been crucified into Christ?

Been resurrected and have ascended?

There is One leader, and that is Christ for all these stages. Is each stage equal? Why or why not?

Do you even know where you are at?

These things are too broad in terms for me to respond to. I mean, to be crucified into Christ - exactly what do you mean. That can be seen in so many ways. If you mean like did I drop my old life/beliefs in favor of the new things I learn, then yes. Physically, then no, and I do not look at the physical very much in this.

If you had been baptized into Jesus' baptism you would know it without any doubt. It comes about only after our love has become perfected... when the sapling is fully grown.

As for knowing where I am, I'd say not exactly.

We are born into this life at the stage/level we had gained previously.

I know where I am not, and I know where I am heading. As I stated before, in my vision I was asked only 1 question - Do you want it to end. Which I replied - no, there is still good out there. Kind of corny I thought, and again this wasn't my own thoughts, it came from a much deeper part of me, I felt more like a viewer of it.

Yes. The observer. That which records all our deeds and thoughts.

So I mean in some ways yes I know those things, but it depends on what your definition of what those things would be. Have I felt persecution? Sure. Have I be crucified on a cross? Obviously not. Have I shed my old ways, and now on a better way? Yes, but have I died and ascended physically? Obviously not.

A person doesn't have to physically die to be crucified, resurrected and ascended.

reply to post by badmedia

What is the path as you see it, beginning to end?

The life and example of Jesus.

This question was asked three times in different ways within my many posts. Even though your answer here and elsewhere is essentially correct, I have not received an answer that shows me what you know. Yes, his life was lived in such a manner that if we truly follow him through all the stages he showed us, we too can become the Son of Man as Jesus was and that is what I was looking for from you.

Therefore, I will answer my own question. This may be a little involved, and I may go into a little more detail than is necessary, but I wish to be thourough.

Everyone knows the first two steps of Repentance and Baptism, but with the over emphasis on Jesus' death I think that even these first two steps are somewhat overlooked and the remaining steps are missed entirely.

Jesus was baptised by John the baptist, whom did the baptism of repentance. Some might argue that Jesus didn't need to repent, but we see that after his baptism, Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. (Matt. 4:1)

So, even though Jesus had not only the seed of the Kingdom planted and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit at the time of his baptism (As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." Matthew 3:16-17) he showed us that repentance continued even after these events, including that of receiving the Holy Spirit, by his journey into the desert.

Through our own continued repentance, we show our intention to Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48, and with every act of repentance that we do, which is turning away from improper actions and thoughts that will no longer be done or thought, we are filled with God’s light. The more ethical and compassionate we become, the more we find that it brings us and others happiness. I think that some people become atheists in order to protect this seed.

At some point in this process of repentance and being filled with Light, we can reach what may be called a critical mass of having the Light of God within ourselves and enjoy the blessed event of Transfiguration. 2After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. Mark 9:2-3.

This transfiguration is the manna, the bread from heaven. And the person becomes filled with joy. This event I would say is the Seal of God and the symbolism of the last supper where Jesus gives the bread, we find that event of transfiguration gives us the body of Christ. This body of light is woven about the person and it is observable by the individual experiencing it and by those with eyes to see.

Following the transfiguration is the crucifixion.

Why does the crucifixion become necessary after having received the Seal of God? Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone." Luke 4:4 and this was said in reference to Deuteronomy 8:3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD .

At some point after the transfiguration the individual comes face to face with an enormous decision. Having been filled with power during the transfiguration, the individual can choose either their own desire or that which they know is the will of God. The individual can accomplish either of the choices before them since they have the power to do so.

Will our decision reflect our desire to live on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD, or will our desire and decision reflect that we only desire God’s power to do with it as we wish?

Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane reflects this step of the journey following Jesus. I hope it is apparent to all whom have read the bible that Jesus could have escaped what was before him, and that it is also obvious that Jesus always knew what was going to be his end… his physical end that is. Yes, Jesus had the time and the cover of darkness to escape, and he was no doubt aware that he could do so, hence this was one of his choices. Did he do that? No, he showed to us the wisest and most difficult course of action in his prayer: "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." Luke 22:42

He sweated blood! An evidence of extreme anxiety showing how frightening this step of crucifixion can be. Yes, Jesus loved his life, but he was not willing to save it for he knew that: Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. Luke 17:33 It is at the step of the crucifixion that one’s transfigured body and life-blood is given, and it isn’t necessarily the blood that flows through our veins. Jesus died here in the Garden. His will joined with the will of God and became one with God’s. All who have gone through this has the will of God as their will. And, it is only God whom knows when this hour will come, when the individual is ready for this most extreme event. It can not be asked for nor rushed.

Jesus had already given his disciples the bread and wine representing his body and blood prior to his crucifixion. So, it isn’t his physical death that provides salvation/eternal life without need of reincarnation. I am of the opinion that Jesus was a perfected being prior to his arrival here on earth and that he went through all these stages so that the secrets that are kept secret through ritual, and in the inner circle of secret societies can be gleaned from his life story.

Continued...



[edit on 13-12-2008 by L.I.B.]

reply to post by badmedia


And so, what happens whenever a person arrives at this point of crucifixion in their walk following Jesus towards God is that their spiritual body of light, the manna, the bread which has already been established in transfiguration, and the spiritual blood now given at the moment of perfection of aligning one's own will to that of God's will flows out, maybe even over the entire planet, which is what the earthquake and the Sun being darkened at the moment of Jesus’ death is supposed to indicate. This body and blood is available to be absorbed by anyone whom is dedicated to repentance in whatever measure they are able to absorb it.

This blood and body is Christ, since the seed was planted by Christ. A Christ seed produces a Christ fruit. Herein is the value of Jesus' body and blood. Jesus had to die physically so that this process could be provided in a lasting visible template for all others to come after him to follow. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13

When you read the parable that Luke 19:22 is almost the conclusion of, you can see in this verse of Luke 19:22 how the salvation of the planet comes about, through the continual sowing of seeds. If so much emphasis hadn’t been put on the crucifixion of Jesus and instead emphasis had been put on how to do that which Jesus tells us: I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. John 14:12, the planet would already be a paradise and Jesus’ work would be done.

And, if a person does do what Jesus tells us is possible for us to do greater than he, we must also remember that he said to us: I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. John 13:16

So, the water baptism leads to the receipt of the Holy Spirit, which then leads to the transfiguration, followed by the baptism by fire, which I consider to be the crucifixion. "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Matthew 3:11

It is the fire of crucifixion that burns all the dross away, the fire that reveals and leaves only the gold behind. While this purifying fire rages, the individual will actually feel the words spoken by Jesus: … My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 27:46

Fortunately the crucifixion ends. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. John 19:30

“And he gave up his spirit.” This is to indicate that spirit which is a rebel against the will of God and it is what must be given up for eternal life. That spirit that sins, intentionally or not, is given up, and the soul that allowed such sins dies in the crucifixion. What else could explain the seemingly contradictory statements in 1 John? In John 1:8 it is said: If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Followed by John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Obviously, if errors are continuing to be made, the dying to Self and being reborn into God has not yet been accomplished.

The crucifixion is a horrible ordeal no matter how long it may take. For some the crucifixion may last only an hour, for others maybe only a few hours and for others a longer amount of time. It is this event that acquits individuals from sin. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

And new they are. For the new creature rises, resurrected and reborn. No longer resembling their old self whom might of gotten angry for being cut off in traffic, whom would display impatience for whatever reason, whom might have been more concerned with their portfolio than the well being of their fellow person, puffed up pride, takes offense, fights to be right instead of for what's right, and on and on… on how they might have been prior that was portraying selfishness in whatever form it might take. And instead of these old behaviors it is found that ‘thankfulness’ is the order of the day. Just as you may have noticed that Jesus always gave thanks for everything… even before the manifestation of what he was giving thanks for.

Yes, Jesus' life is a template, an exemplary one. His death also accomplished other matters for us that we need be thankful for too.

reply to post by badmedia

I got my start in finding the truth from politics and government(evil). I seen what was really going on shortly after 9/11, and lived in a world where everyone was asleep.

We are not so different. I've felt this way most of my life. That everyone was asleep.

Maybe someday you'd like to hear how my search to understand God started.

I have been called so many names of speaking out against it by those who were asleep. I mean years of it, death threats and treated as though I was the worse person on the face of the earth for what I seen. I'm from the deep south, and you just don't say things like that around most people, and I couldn't believe just how rabid they had gotten. I couldn't believe how much of a hypocrite people were. How could they not see that in their attacks, they are becoming the same evil they point fingers at? I'd post on community forums and just get blasted, and I'd give it right back over and over just telling the truth. Nobody would dare speak up in support, but I did get the occasional personal message of support from people who agreed, just didn't have the vocabulary to deal with the manipulation.

All I seen in the world was all this, and people bold face lieing to people. This troubled me alot. And it felt like everything was screwed. And after a few years of that and looking at things from mulitple experiences did that happen, and thus the - do you want it to end bit I think. Of course, it was a bit comforting finding out that this was actually stuff Jesus himself said and warned about.

I understand. So, your vision occurred a couple years after 9/11?

Well, rather than continuing on with the rest of your posts concerning the guilt of Paul, I'll await till I find out if you have come to see that the guilt is with the church of today that developed after the Nicene council, and the bloody romans began killing those of the real churches that the apostles had set up.

About those passages you posted from the book of Revelation. I had to laugh because just prior to your posting I had read those passages! Too funny because I had thought of what I wrote earlier.

Anyway, it is thought that Revelation was originally written in Hebrew. It would not be unusual for a Hebrew to say either Jew or Israel to mean the same thing.

Before I reply. Do you think the "real church" is physical at all?

Also, in your last post you mention the original language of Revelations. I read that most people say the original is written in Greek. But that some claim Hebrew. I was actually just looking for that information earlier today for another topic, and most sources said Greek, and a few of them said Greek, but also mentioned some thought it had to originate from a Hebrew source.

I'll reply after the 1st question is answered. It seems to be important in how I reply.

reply to post by badmedia

Before I reply. Do you think the "real church" is physical at all?

If by physical you mean a building, then no. If by physical you mean consisting of people now living on earth, then yes. Then there are also those members of the real church who are incorporeal too.

Also, in your last post you mention the original language of Revelations. I read that most people say the original is written in Greek. But that some claim Hebrew. I was actually just looking for that information earlier today for another topic, and most sources said Greek, and a few of them said Greek, but also mentioned some thought it had to originate from a Hebrew source.

I happen to be one of those whom agree with the scholars who think that Revelation was originally written in Hebrew.

Originally posted by badmedia
So I mean in some ways yes I know those things, but it depends on what your definition of what those things would be. Have I felt persecution? Sure. Have I be crucified on a cross? Obviously not. Have I shed my old ways, and now on a better way? Yes, but have I died and ascended physically? Obviously not.

But brother, you have been crucified. It only remains that you identify with the crucified Christ...that you may ascend with "him".

Truth was crucified "before the foundation of the world". What crucifies the Truth? The world. The world is against the Truth, as if to be at war with it. And in war, the first casualty is the Truth. As such, the world thrives on confusion...propoganda...lies...ignorance...secrecy...and a juggernaut disinformation campaign. The resulting ignorance leads to pain and suffering and death. It matters not the form of the pain and suffering and death. It is all crucifixion, so-to-speak.

All who suffer are the crucified Christ. What am I saying? I'm saying that the world is the crucified Christ. The world is Christ...crucified. The world is one thing...Christ crucified.

What is Christ? The totality of everything real; *Our Father's* one and only Creation. What then is this interloper called "the world", or, "the universe"? This is Christ, going voluntarily to his own cross. What crucifies reality? Unreality...illusion...maya...anti-reality...anti-Christ.

When you truly understand what it means to be baptized into Christ, you will come to accept that the world is Christ crucified, and, you are that Christ. So the world is you...crucified...and Christ is you...risen. You come to understand this by washing your mind with the *water of truth*. That is, as you let truth flow through your mind constantly, it will wash away what is blocking your acceptance of yourself as Christ. To this end, baptism in water is symbolic. The actual baptism occurs over time, as you come to accept the truth, and, alas, come to know yourSelf as the Truth that was crucified before the foundation of the world.

If you allow Jesus to be Christ crucified, but do not include yourself with him and therefore with Christ, then you exclude yourself from salvation, choosing instead to remain separate, that you may continue experiencing the individualistic modes of existence that define what it means to be Christ crucified. Christ crucified is a separated Son. Separation destroys the Son of God. The law of the world is separation, everything separated, distinct, different and unique from all other things. This is the lie that crucifies the Truth. So long as it seems real to you, it is something you value and desire and invest faith in. Only as you withdraw faith from the lie and invest it in the Truth do you accomplish true baptism, and save yourSelf from self-concepts.

The world is a self-concept. It is the idea that you are ignorant, stupid, weak, confused, arrogant, different, unique, special, separate, and lost. Brother, you are very near another paradigm shift that goes far beyond the seeming awakening you experienced after 911. The magnitude of that conspiracy is merely symbolic, small potatoes compared to the grande, arrogance conspiracy that is the world against Christ. When you are willing that it end, you will make the paradigm shift, and see for yourself that it is not about *good and evil*, but true or false. Knowledge is the truth. The good and evil is the false.

Think of "sin" as an acronym: seriously insane notions. Such is the foundation of the world. Think of "life" in the world as "lies for feelings". Think of L.I.B. as an acronym: Ludicrously insane beliefs about the Son of God. Such is the world, and such are its supporters.

Peace,

Christ!

[edit on 16-12-2008 by Christ!]

Christ.......... I dont exactly know what all you just said ..but LIB is doing a really good job of explaining as he sees it ..and I agree with him,....
I also believe that Badmedia has made some very good points (not about Paul lol ) ....this has been a great reading thread ..and a post that made me have do so more homework ..which just makes me see Paul is even more blessed than I thought he was (which I already thought he was anyway lol) ....sorry Badmedia but your wrong about Paul .
I think you have misunderstood him ...or maybe you dont like him because he is alot like you ..in alot of ways .....(but your missing the fact that Jesus is the only way we can come to the father)and that there is no other way except Jesus Christ .. ....your missing that Badmedia ..(How can you know so much and not grasp that >?) ........

Ok sorry back to topic ...
I am enjoying the read and learning too ..thanks you 2


[edit on 16-12-2008 by Simplynoone]

I agree Paul is easy to misunderstand at first. He seems to make 'hot poker' statements every now and then to stoke the fires. If you don't reall ALL of the letter/book then it's easy to miss where he's going with it. He himself says so as well. After you read one letter/book however, the others follow suit well. He's edgy, he's provocative, that's what makes Paul Paul! I don't know anyone who got this on the first read-through:

"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?" - Romans 7:14-24

The answer to this is in the next verse, "Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

Paul, the mirror, reflects back to Christ.


[edit on 17-12-2008 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


Jesus is not God's one and only son. God has NO sons. Be He Glorified! Whom you call God's son is God's servant, the son of His maidservant Mary. A Prophet sent to the Children of Israel, whom the Children of Israel rejected.

Saint4God, stand by your name and be a servant of the One God, the God of your father Abraham and all the prophets. He is ONLY ONE GOD, He begets not, nor was He begotten and there is NONE comparable unto Him.

You are wrong about Jesus being the son of Joseph, Jesus' rightful title is son of Mary, since Joseph is not his father. And the likeness of Jesus in relation with God is as the likeness of Adam, God just said to him BE and he is. And we all know that Adam is not the son of God, so desist in saying that Jesus is the one and only begotten son of God, that is the teachings of Satan. Do not be deceived. Wake up. Whoever ascribes a partner to God will be forbidden Paradise.

As Jesus said, if you see someone who is not born of a woman, prostrate before Him, that one is your God.

Peace!

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Christ.......... I dont exactly know what all you just said ..but LIB is doing a really good job of explaining as he sees it ..and I agree with him,....
I also believe that Badmedia has made some very good points (not about Paul lol ) .....(but your missing the fact that Jesus is the only way we can come to the father)and that there is no other way except Jesus Christ .. ....your missing that Badmedia ..(How can you know so much and not grasp that >?) ........

Ok sorry back to topic ...
I am enjoying the read and learning too ..thanks you 2


[edit on 16-12-2008 by Simplynoone]

Thank you.

Paul did a really good job of explaining as he sees it. L.I.B. is doing a really good job of explaining as he sees it. That is the mistake he is making. Badmedia is doing a really good job of trying to see things the way Jesus may have seen them. As such, he is closer than L.I.B. to discovering the truth, because his desire for the truth is hotter than L.I.B. So I am addressing the one who already has some faith, that he may have more. As of yet, badmedia has not yet had the epiphany that, once and for all, shifts his perception in a way that he is straight on the path of truth. So he does make mistakes, just as Paul made mistakes.

I will tell you exactly how Paul, L.I.B, and badmedia [not for much longer] are mistaken. They still place faith in the world, or parts of the world as real. This means that they stilll want certain aspects of the world to be real. Paul wanted to maintain individuality...a persona...something different from Christ...as his identity. A glorified body, as hoped for and promoted by Paul...is part of the world. As such, his baptism was never completed, and he was not saved...meaning, his mind was never completely healed. His mind remained split between heaven and hell. As such, he preferred to pay the wages of sin. And in time, he remains in the world.

You see, it is the truth that sets you free...not a good job of seeing things the way you want to see them. Jesus taught a whole new way of seeing things...a revolutionary way of looking at the world: None of it is true...no part of it is true...and desire for it will keep you in it...a prisoner to insane fantasy.

You see, the world is nothing but mistaken notions...rather insane notions...about Christ, the Son of God. The world is the Son of God, mistaken about himself...denying himself...tossing away his inheritance...walking away from reality...losing himself from himSelf...in his own mind. As such, the world is a manifestation of a kind of insanity, or, mental illness, in the mind of the Son of God. The world is, the prodigal Son of God, who, mistakenly, calls himself the "son of man".

To call yourself the son of man is evidence that your mind is not yet healed. So Jesus says: "Call no man father". But this also means, call no gOd father who is said to be the father of man. Man is a manifestation of many wills, instead of one will. Men are images of imagination, dreamfigures in the mind of a sleeping "prodigal" Son. So, men are a nightmare in the mind of Christ...inherently anti-Christ by their very nature...at enmity with Christ till one or the other is seen to be everything, and the other seen to be nothing...non-existent.

Righteousness is to return to *Our Father*. *Our Father* is the Father of Christ, the Son of God. Thus, you can only return to the Father as the Son of God...not the son of man. This is what it means that no one comes to the Father but "through Christ". You must come *as Christ*, for Christ is the one and only Son the Father knows to be the Truth. He has no other sons, no other Creation. And it is equal to the Father, perfect as the Father. Therefore, the man of flesh must..."die"...to the world. It is the desire that parts of the world be true that must die.


Christ!



[edit on 17-12-2008 by Christ!]

Originally posted by saint4God
I agree Paul is easy to misunderstand at first. He seems to make 'hot poker' statements every now and then to stoke the fires. If you don't reall ALL of the letter/book then it's easy to miss where he's going with it. He himself says so as well. After you read one letter/book however, the others follow suit well. He's edgy, he's provocative, that's what makes Paul Paul! I don't know anyone who got this on the first read-through:

"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?" - Romans 7:14-24

The answer to this is in the next verse, "Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

Paul, the mirror, reflects back to Christ.
[edit on 17-12-2008 by saint4God]

AMEN ....And about what Paul said ...I can certainly relate to those verses ..and he wasnt lieing when he said the spirit is willing but that flesh is weak ...I believe we can all relate to that ............

Originally posted by saint4God
I agree Paul is easy to misunderstand at first. He seems to make 'hot poker' statements every now and then to stoke the fires. If you don't reall ALL of the letter/book then it's easy to miss where he's going with it. He himself says so as well. After you read one letter/book however, the others follow suit well. He's edgy, he's provocative, that's what makes Paul Paul! I don't know anyone who got this on the first read-through:

"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?" - Romans 7:14-24

The answer to this is in the next verse, "Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

Paul, the mirror, reflects back to Christ.


[edit on 17-12-2008 by saint4God]

Paul heard the gospel as he prosecuted those who were spreading it. This passage indicates that Paul heard the gospel, but did not understand it. He did not understand because he is still identifying himself as a man...as a body...because he still wants a body, albeit a glorified body. So he believes that it will be another man, another body, which will save him. Rather, it is Christ who saves, by healing the mind of those whose identity is split between Spirit and flesh.

The mental conflict that Paul is describing is not something that originates in the mind of man. The mind of man originates from a split mind, as the Son of God divides his own mind ["house", "temple"], between what is true about himself, and what is not true. What is not true is "sin", which is a collection of seriously insane notions about Self...Christ, the Son of God. As such, sin is the denial of Christ ["unbelief in Christ"]. Because Christ is Reality [the "Kingdom of God"], the denial of Christ is to not believe what is real and true...leading to insanity ["sin"]...which leads to the manifestation of man [many] in the image of many "gOds".

Man is an effect of this mental conflict. Man is the "fallout" of a "house divided against itself". Therefore, the entire manifestation of man must vanish ["pass away"] for the mind of Christ to be healed and made whole again within itself. The very concept of man must "die", if Christ is to "live". On the contrary, man [the many] "lives" only as the Son of God [the one] "dies". So man's relationship to Christ is contrarian...always at enmity...always threatened by the Truth. As such, man's survival depends on the death of the Truth. As such, there is no Truth in the mind of man, except as the Truth is allowed to enter his mind, as it stands at the door, knocking.

"We live and breath and move in Christ"...yes...to the extent that man "lives". But not normally, because man is not really living. Man lives and breathes and moves in Christ as worms and parasites live and breath and move inside the host they are eating. As such, the "one loaf" of Bread is consumed by the "many" who feast on its destruction...as it is "broken for the many".

Christ!






[edit on 17-12-2008 by Christ!]

The thing I find interesting about the book of Romans is that his letter is about this issue of the requirements of following the 613 commandments that those within Judaism must follow. These commandments are summed up by the all-encompassing word of: circumcision.

The apostles got together and decided that the gentiles did not have to abide by the 613 commandments of the old testament. Giving the distinction between those of the "circumcision" being those who said all the 613 laws must be followed and those of the uncircumcised being those who were freed of the necessity of following those laws.

I believe in those passages that Saint4God posted is Paul speaking personally of how, without grace, that the flesh battles with the law. Paul was showing in the book of Romans that if people want to follow the 613 commandments in the old testament, that is fine, but that they will be judged by those laws.

And also that with the grace provided by Christ, that the battle of the fleshly carnal desires are overcome wherein the laws are fulfilled.

Originally posted by L.I.B.
The thing I find interesting about the book of Romans is that his letter is about this issue of the requirements of following the 613 commandments that those within Judaism must follow. These commandments are summed up by the all-encompassing word of: circumcision.

The apostles got together and decided that the gentiles did not have to abide by the 613 commandments of the old testament. Giving the distinction between those of the "circumcision" being those who said all the 613 laws must be followed and those of the uncircumcised being those who were freed of the necessity of following those laws.

I believe in those passages that Saint4God posted is Paul speaking personally of how, without grace, that the flesh battles with the law. Paul was showing in the book of Romans that if people want to follow the 613 commandments in the old testament, that is fine, but that they will be judged by those laws.

And also that with the grace provided by Christ, that the battle of the fleshly carnal desires are overcome wherein the laws are fulfilled.

Correct me if I am wrong, but those are mostly man's laws. Of which Jesus, not Paul taught they were not all right etc. The 10 commandments are the only ones which are gods laws.

Of which can be broken down into 1 universal law of love thy neighbor as thyself. I also view that as I have mentioned before in the context of how I learned it, that anything which imposes on the will of another is a sin, which is the same thing because if you truly love someone, you would set them free and thus not impose on their free will. The exception of course is in the event of the person not knowing better or what have you - such as pushing someone out of the way of being hit by a car.

So in reality, the commandments and all "just" laws can come down to just 1 universal law. And the way you know if you are breaking them yourself, thus being a hypocrite is to put yourself in the other persons shoes and take an honest look at it from their perspective, and then you can see how your own actions truly are. Or in other words you can see the beam in your own eye. You can also this way see when such exceptions are justified by doing the same thing - IE: If you were about to be hit by a car, it would be of your will that someone pushed you out of the way.

So it makes little sense to me that people are to be judged on 613 rules of the old testament. Jesus is the one who brings understanding, and he makes it clear that you will be judged based on what you judge others one. So only if you judged others based on the 613 laws in the old testament would those be applied to you.

Saying people are saved by the grace of Jesus is a bit misleading here. Simply based on what Jesus says those who truly know him and those who truly believe will act. Over and over Jesus warns about people who will only follow his image, and tells them that those who do what he says and follows the path are those he knows. As such, it seems it would be those who are saved by the grace of Jesus. Why else would he say things like in Matthew 7?

To me, Paul turns Jesus into nothing more than a sacrifice for the world. The stuff Jesus taught - not important. The example he provided - not important. The only thing important - believe he died for you and you will be saved by his grace.

As a sacrifice, then he is the same as what Christ! mentioned. A sacrifice of the truth, so that the lie of the world could live. And I just plain out don't accept that God had any reason or need to send Jesus here for such a thing. It makes no sense why the truth needed to be introduced in the first place.

Originally posted by Christ!
But brother, you have been crucified. It only remains that you identify with the crucified Christ...that you may ascend with "him".

I do agree with your entire post actually, and I do know it to be true. I was also asked if I wanted to leave, but I choose to stay.

I really don't/can't comment on your posts, because there is generally nothing I disagree with. Just know they aren't unnoticed or unappreciated.

reply to post by badmedia

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by Christ!
But brother, you have been crucified. It only remains that you identify with the crucified Christ...that you may ascend with "him".

I do agree with your entire post actually, and I do know it to be true. I was also asked if I wanted to leave, but I choose to stay.

I really don't/can't comment on your posts, because there is generally nothing I disagree with. Just know they aren't unnoticed or unappreciated.

Within that post that you just said that you agree with in it's entirety is the comment/judgment: "Think of L.I.B. as an acronym: Ludicrously insane beliefs about the Son of God."

Since you agree with this, then, I don't think there is any reason for further discussion.



[edit on 17-12-2008 by L.I.B.]

I gotta tell ya ..Christ ...when I try to read what you write It makes my eyes cross ...and I dont understand or comprehend what your saying sometimes .


I was really wondering about what you said here ...
[What is not true is "sin", which is a collection of seriously insane notions about Self...Christ, the Son of God.]

Can you explain what your saying here a little better please ..?(so I dont assume anything )....

Originally posted by L.I.B.
Within that post that you just said that you agree with in it's entirety is the comment/judgment: "Think of L.I.B. as an acronym: Ludicrously insane beliefs about the Son of God."

Since you agree with this, then, I don't think there is any reason for further discussion.

I wasn't actually talking about that, and don't be so thin skinned. I'm pretty sure he was talking about your sticking up for Paul. There are many people who don't agree with Paul at all. There are many people who believe Paul manipulated the message and so on. I am one of them.