Vanishing Sunspot Mystery Has Scientists Worried! The Beginning Of The Ice Age?

I think things are really screwed up. When I was in USA, they had record lows.

When I got back to Philippines, things are going the opposite way and it's getting warmer, in fact, this is the warmest November I had. I remember couple years ago, it was very cold, that I have to wear jacket outside, now all I think is finding the nearest beach.

To anyone who thinks increasing carbon production is the answer, go back to your pathetic caves and leave us in peace! All our carbon-producing machines also make all manners of toxic pollutants that could cause respiratory/nervous problems and acid rain. So no thanks, ape man

There are far better solutions like painting all our roofs black so they heat up and through convection currents, heat the air effectively.

I would almost welcome a new Ice Age at this point. Sure a lot of us would die, but the government would finally be caught in a lie, causing a massive questioning chain reaction!

Secret Pentagon Report Tells Bush: Climate Change Will Destroy Us

. Secret report warns of rioting and nuclear war.

· Britain will be 'Siberian' in less than 20 years.

· Threat to the world is greater than terrorism.



Makes for alarming reading! Even if half of it is true, you'd better pack your bags and head for the hills!


www.guardian.co.uk...

It will take years, but we will at some point it is the epitome of hubris to believe that such a minimal biomass as mankind can affect the climate of any world, including Earth.

We are perfectly capable of poisoning ouselves and environs in small scale, but we are going to be at the mercy of natural cycles and processes for a long, long time. No amount of cap and trade, or carbon credits, will ever change this reality.

Almost every study, attempt or experiment has failed to confirm any ability to change climate on a large scale; and, every one has produced more CO2, volatiles, and particulates than it has removed.

The best we can do is try to perfect our modeling and record keeping so that we can better acclimate ourselves to the changes we cannot prevent or affect.

We are only on a ride here, and must use what protection we can afford.

Hype and sensationalism serve no purpose than the unjust enrichment of those willing and able to capitalize on the fad of the day.

There is defintely "climate change." There has been for 4.7 billion years. Ask the dinosaurs and mammoths. It changes constantly thanks to many factors over which we will never have control. That's one reason we call everyday local conditions the "whether."

I believe we should do what we can to protect ourselves, and that includes limiting our influence on local conditions, i.e. the environment. (hippocrates: "First, do no harm"). But we have no control over world-scale conditions, and will not for generations, if ever.

No one benefits from fear-mongering but the fear mongers.

reply to post by mikesingh

---

Actually, Mike, the CIA has been issuing such reports for at least 35 years. In the early 1970's, the CIA concluded that changing weather was "the greatest single challenge that America will face in coming years." That quote is from page 2 of "The Weather Conspiracy- The Coming of the New Ice Age, a report by THE IMPACT TEAM, Ballantine Books, NY ISBN 0-345-27209-9. I have it on my desk. I reread it every so often, whenever the issue of Global Weather Change/Warming/Cooling comes up. The interesting thing is that then, as now, there were almost instant repudiations of the book's conclusions, as today, there are now repudiations of the Global Warming Theorists. Here is an article that criticizes such books and associated conclusions:
stephenschneider.stanford.edu...

Nice thread. F&S.

I had to butt in and say something to the folks who have expressed a concern about Global Warming because it will supposedly usher in a new Ice Age. I have yet to hear anything so fantastic outside of comic books.

The only way this fear could be grounded is if the warming directly triggered the cooling. We at present have no verifiable mechanism for this to happen that I have seen. Much more likely, and much more verifiable, is a cyclic mechanism that moves from warming to cooling trends. So if we accept the possibility that a cooling trend will occur in the future, it would make as much sense to worry about getting the planet too warm as it would to worry about getting your house too warm before a cold snap hit. All a cold house will do is make the cold snap more unbearable, and all a cooler planet going into a cooling period will do is make that cooling period more devastating.

The proper procedure is to verify the models that are being used before taking them to heart. This is extremely difficult to do when global atmospheric conditions are the item under scrutiny, because as ProfEmeritus pointed out, the range of variables is enormous. Fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, chemistry, chaos theory, Newtonian physics, Organic sciences, electromagnetic wave theory, and many other disciplines all have a place in the study of this mass of gases which surround us.

The fact that models are not verifiable in most cases due to these variables is not sufficient reason to simply accept them as true, either. There is no justification for simply accepting anything as fact because someone said so, even if it is a lot of someones doing the saying so. Science must be proven, by repeatable, verifiable, and peer-reviewed experiments and observations, or it is simply not science. It is conjecture, which we used to call in engineering a SWAG (Sophisticated Wild-Ass Guess).

I did go back through the linked graphs on the solar cycles, and it appeared from a casual examination that this last cycle was really nothing out of the ordinary. Rather, it appears that the cycles before it were extraordinarily energetic. That lends credibility to the fact that solar radiation, not a colorless odorless gas has been the culprit all along. And should that be a fact, then it literally strips the scientific community who have been crying for so long about CO2 levels of any credibility as to their predictions either way.

In short, I am cold. The temperature so far this fall has been below average almost every day. I was promised Global Warming. I want to know where it is. I want my Global Warming!

Do carbon credits come with a money-back guarantee?

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck

---

Good Evening Redneck. I was wondering when you would show up. LOL!
Seems like we've "been there, done that" a few times with this issue. As always, great post, friend.

There are many areas that even the brightest scientists are imo, guessing. This is one of them. Along with things like quantum physics, etc. They *may* be right, but typically in any area they are still basically newborns in, they are making a lot of assumptions. From all the global warming and receding glaciars... regardless from man-made conditions or natural cycle of our planet, I don't see an iceage on our horizon.

What most fail to see, is that any warming which we are currently experiencing is in fact SPACE BASED. However, the Southern Polar Region is Cooling, while the Northern Polar Region has warmed ever so slightly. Weather Patterns still offset these effects, so it is still negligible.

Considering this aforementioned basic analysis of "Global Warming", a lack in Solar Activity can lead towards the actual conclusion of the reality behind "Global Cooling".

If we do in fact enter a "Little Ice Age", it will be similar to how this Earth was between the Early 1600's, up until the 1800's or so. During this time period, it was cold enough during the Winters that one could actually walk from Manhattan to New Jersey unimpeded by Open Water. Greenland was also heavily affected, for it was once an open expanse of Green Meadows, and Grass Covered Hills, with an abundance of Crops and Native Tribes.

During this "Little Ice Age" of the 1600's to the 1800's, is when this Island became inundated with Ice, Glaciers, and Snow. Many of the Native Tribes died off due to the Climate Change, and the Island never again appeared the same.

If we do in fact enter another "Ice Age", I doubt that it will bear any resemblance to the one of 12,000 Years Ago, but rather of the one which we faced nearly 200 Years Ago.

Agro Floats Prove No Global Warming Taking Place.

An Argo Float is a Robotic network system that watches our oceans. Argo Floats, which are autonomous ocean-traveling robots, are programmed to sink more than a mile below the ocean surface, helping scientists all over the world to better understand the changes in our climate and look at the future of our whole planet.

This is an ambitious scientific project about the observation of our oceans, which has been endorsed by 18 countries. There are today more than 3000 robotic floats today, reporting about salinity changes or predicting El Niño events, among other ones.


A cross section of an Argo float.
Courtesy: British Oceanographic Data Centre


An Argo float shortly before recovery by the Japan Coast Guard vessel Takuyo.
Image credit: Japan Coast Guard/JPL



But what are the facts? According to a U.S. National Public Radio (NPR) interview with Josh Willis at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a scientist who keeps close watch on the Argo findings, "there has been a slight cooling."

Now add to this the latest findings of the vanishing sun spots that are resulting in ‘global cooling’ and things start to get a little clearer. So much for ‘Global Warming’!

Cheers!


www.nationalpost.com...
www.bodc.ac.uk...



[edit on 26-11-2008 by mikesingh]

"Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak . "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days ! "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter , or on a Sabbath . " (Matthew 24:18-20)

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Good morning Prof, and thank you.

The real underling problem as I see it actually has nothing to do with the science behind weather, but more to do with human gullibility. You see, we both lived through the 70s global cooling scare. We remember it. But those less than 30 do not. All they have heard is the media blitz on Global Warming. And, since most people today know precious little about that magical thing called science (or history, for that matter), they simply assume it is true, and those big evil corporations are to fault. After all, the media gives them free entertainment, while the corporations charge them for things they want and need.

Oh, and especially the big mean oil companies, who not only charge high prices for fuel, but also pollute the environment with all that CO2. It seems no one ever stops to think what it would be like without the fuel. Many times I have tried to explain that to people. They will complain about how mean the oil companies are, and I will say "Then quit buying gasoline". Their answer is always "But I have to buy gas!" Still, the concept goes right over their heads that if there were no oil companies, there would be no gas to buy.

It's propaganda, pure and simple. Give the people a common enemy and they will be so busy fighting it, they will never notice what you're doing. Global Warming was just the latest in a long line of these faux enemies, distracting our attention while the real enemies of the people get their agenda into place.

This thread is showing it happening again. Global Warming has been thoroughly debunked after much patient and time-consuming work on the part of those like us who try to educate others on the truth behind the 'science'. Now it's back to the little Ice Age theme, to indoctrinate those young minds who are growing up even now and will have little to no memory of Global Warming. It's a scripted play, with each generation acting out its part in total ignorance fostered by those who seek money.

What is ironic is that the little Ice Age scare of the 70s has been covered up during this scene, but should we both live to see it, someday soon the media will be screaming about the theory of the little Ice Age being around since the 1970s.

TheRedneck

No matter what happens over the next decades, I just don't get why people can't seem to understand that the earth's climate has always changed, and will continue to change for as long as this planet will exist. It is beyond me that a lot of people still think we control the way this planet works. We certainly have to be responsible about our environment and limit its pollution to a minimum, but in the end nature will always control us, not the other way around.

[edit on 26-11-2008 by Bullhorn]

What complete utter .... however this kind of thing is perfect for the warming skeptics. However, on the bright side it shows the total ignorance expressed by the skeptics.

Here's a clue : READ THE GODDAM SCIENCE!!!!

Hilarious and you know what you actually believe it. Or is this a psychological double bluff where you hope that ignorant readers will believe what you have written.

Sorry folks GW has not been debunked. Ignorance by the almost entirely US based skeptics has been highlighted again and again and again.....

All that has happened is that the skeptics have become further entrenched into their own distorted and cherry picked analysis.

reply to post by malcr

Wow, thanks for all the information. You observations are insightful, and those links were eye-openers.

OK, that was sarcasm. But this isn't: thank you for proving my point. I, the mean, evil, unscientific skeptic, make a case presenting historical data. You, the enlightened scientific one, make an unsupported emotional claim.

Yeah, way to make a point, Einstein.

TheRedneck

reply to post by malcr

---

Don't you think it's at least a little bit ignorant to generalize all skeptics by calling them all ignorant? I don't believe we're gonna see massive global warming over the next decades (certainly not man-made gw). You're telling us to read the *expletive deleted* science, when there are lots of scientists who support this 'theory' as well as scientists who strongly oppose it. I'm telling you, I am honestly not able to verify either side since I'm not a scientist and cannot judge the results of these studies nor the motives for the scientists on either side of the argument. Unfortunately, it all comes down to 'who do I believe?' and I personally, though I can't back it up with any hard evidence, question the motives of those at the top making a strong push for carbon taxes, for example. That's just my opinion, but I don't consider myself an ignorant person simply because I don't believe we will experience (man-made) global warming.

edit: By the way, malcr, I don't think the skeptics reside almost exclusively in the US. I live in Germany and I know a few people who have some serious doubts about this issue.

[edit on 26-11-2008 by Bullhorn]

Well I like penn and teller and sense they said the total amount of carbon released by man and all man made items make up for a total of 0.02% and the other 99.98% comes from plant and animal life and decay well I'll have to go with them on this one.

Considering their not the only ones saying this I'm guessing it's fairly accurate.

After all, nearly all the money spent on carbon credits went to gore or at least the unofficial official site he donated to was actually his site.

Considering you can take a fancy bar graph and plot out the average mean temps for every year sense we started keeping record and it looks like a sound wave the old adage what goes up must come down again seems to relate here.

Hey it appears to be mirroring the economy actually.

I am only a 15 yo student but even I realise that global warming is a hoax BUT it is very important that we stop producing earth damaging gases. The CO2 particals make up such an insignificant percentage of our planets mass that there is no feasable way that it could contrabute to the heating of our planet. Even if none of the suns energy escaped from our earths atmophire it woul take 20 years for the effects to be noticed.

The thoery that sunspots cause GW is looking very likely.