Founding Fathers - Christians?

What would Thomas Jefferson done had Jehova's Witness's shown up at his door?

Hmmmm?

First, whether you believe in Christianity or not, or whether you want the US to be Christian or not, you can't ignore US history and rewite it how you want it.

If you think that the right winger or bible-thumpers have tried to deceive you into thinking that the"Founding Fathers" were Christian, then you have almost no knowledge of American History. If a few quotes can sway you, then you really have no concept of the Revolution. Seriously.

Again, one's own religious inclinations should not falsify history (me included).

Remember the context of the time of the Founding Fathers. They felt oppressed by the King. They felt oppressed by the Church of England, THE STATE CHURCH. They were fed up with the hypocricy of the Church, and the clergy. Plenty of people fled to America to escape religious persecution only to find that it followed them to a large degree. The Founders had seen how the whims of a Church can defy due process and the rule of law. They were adamant that government (ie FORCE and PUNISHMENT) have nothing to do with mens' beliefs. This is why the very first Amendment deals with freedom of religion.

The Founders wanted to base a country on freedom, and protection of God-given rights, but not a religion. No church would have claim on the governance of the people. There definitely was a backlash against organized religion, be not necessarily religion.

This is the context of the Revolution. Everything they did and said must be taken with this understanding.

What has become "cool" is that a few quotes from some of the participants of the Revolution and the Founder Fathers are trying to offset everything else they did and stood for.

Read the actual notes of the debates they had during the Conventions. Read how they used the organization of the Israelites in the wilderness (and the Anglo-Saxons) as the basis for the Republican organizations. Read about the prayer in all their meetings. Read about them attributing their victories to God.

Some quotes:
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible" - George Washington

"You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention" - George Washington in a letter to Delware Indian Chiefs

"The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind." --Thomas Jefferson to Moses Robinson, 1801

"I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way." - James Madison

There's even this book:
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian(New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919).

I just got tired of copying and pasting. And I have books and books and books of their own writings and speeches and histories of them, but it would take too long for me to type in all the quotes.

Pick up a few histories, or biographies, almost anything, about the Revolution or the Founders. Read from a few sites on the internet. You would only believe they weren't Christians if you had learned nothing about them. That doesn't mean they won't say things contrary to this, and they could always change their minds, but a few quotes do not negate a million others.

The biggest proof is that they based the formation of the government on the teachings of the Bible, including what Christ taught.

It's sad that kids today know nothing of the founding of the country.

Even if you don't believe in Christianity, you can't refuse to ackowledge how the country was founded.

I don't believe in Jupiter or Juno, but I acknowledge that the Romans had a great empire.


[Edited on 3-4-2004 by piboy]

You know, I find myself frequenting this site a lot. I finnaly signed up , this is my first post, but that being said, the last post is absoltely right, why would you let 2,4, or 4 quotes that may, or may of not been taken out of context influence so many others.

Alright, so if that is completely factual, piboy, then what is up with the Treaty of Tripoli of 1797? It says, "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

It passed unanimously through the Senate. It was voted on by many of our Founding Fathers. How can anyone claim to the contrary that this country is founded on the Judeo-Christian faith. At best, and the most religious alot of countries have, is ideals and moralities. The Bible isn't just about a journey through faith; it is also a "law of the land" of sorts. The only connection I can see is the setup of some laws, you know...the "thou shalt nots."

The fact that this nation was founded upon the Christian faith, that the majority of the Founding Fathers were Christians, and that this was never even a point held in contention until relatively recently has been hashed and rehashed. Your stupid comments like "If Christians notice anything" makes it clear your agenda, and tha tyour mindset fits with the Agenda. But where this thread should be is in the "Old, worn out topics" forum, as all one has to do is search and read this site and one can easily see where your assertion is debunked, your T-shirts and all.
Go forth, read, learn from someone who has been studying the foundation of this nation and its documentation LONG before the internet was available.

You also realize that the constitutions of all 50 states recognize and Thank God, correct?

I think the treaty in question is some pretty damning evidence to what ya'll are claiming. It says it plain as day...

The Treaty of Tripoly was making it clear to the Islamic government that our government was not a theocracy, and that it would have no problem trading with others. And again, it is not a theocracy, but at the same time it is based upon the Christian faith (James Madison, the author of the constitution, made it clear that the nation is not based upon religion but upon the Christian faith) and our laws (notice, I said laws, and not statutes) are based on Natural Law, that is to say, Divine Law.
There is no contradiction because of the Treaty of Tripoli, it is only that the Treaty of Tripoly is used to try and prove tha twhich is not the case. It works, too, for those who cursory read websites.

Ok, TC, it seems you are having a problem with the English language. It is clearly worded in a way that we can all understand it. Regardless of what you think its intentions are, it still states, clear as a bell that we are not founded, in any sense, of the Christian religion. And yes, what you are saying would contradict it.

Originally posted by OXmanK
Alright, so if that is completely factual, piboy, then what is up with the Treaty of Tripoli of 1797? It says, "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

The United States is not a theocracy. There's no Pope, apostle, bishop, etc. that that take away your life, liberty, or property. There is no canonical law. No religion dictates law. The government is not organized like the clergy. The acts of legislators is not deemed to be God's will (necessarily). Organizationally the US government and the Church are different.

The Church of England and the Crown were closely tied. There was an idea that the King that was on the throne was King because it was God's will (and who could ever question a king that God put in place?). England could punish individuals based on their religious beliefs. Christianity, as the Church defined it, was the official religion.

The Founders took teachings and ideas from Christianity and used these principles to set up what they thought was the best government on earth. The ten commandments provided the basic guidelines for all laws. However, since you can't punish someone's beliefs, the commandment to love God could not be enforced. But the rest of the commandments became the basic code that the rest of the laws were patterned after (incidently, Roman law had many similarities with the principles of the ten commandments).

Rather than have higher authorities declare their successors or appoint men to politic offices, like they might have in England, the Founders determined that there should be a republican form of government, with a democratic process to elect certain levels.

The Founder's declared no allegiance to the Church of England or any other religion. You could actually pass a law that went against what was in the Bible. The Bible was not the final say in government, although individuals may place the Bible above the laws, the government didn't. This was a new thing to the Western World, and many people thought it was a foolish mistake to not get the blessing of some earthly representative of God.

Logic, the rule of law, due process, and protection of individual rights were to take precedence over charges of heresy, witch trials, defamation of the priesthood, and speaking against the government. In England, you might get killed if you insulted the clergy or king. In America, you might get shunned by your peers, but no one could punish you it that's all you did.

The Founders took the principles of good government and good living from Christianity and separated the operation of the government from any church. It was genius, and except for the Romans, no one had really done it before and became any power.

The Founders understood that giving the government the power to enforce BELIEF was a bad idea, even if it that belief was Christianity. Because it would only be a matter of time before someone changes the belief that is enforced. So, the first amendment basically says the government cannot touch your beliefs. But, this does not mean they did not wish the public to be Christian, have Christianity permeate government, and promote it in the new Republic. It just means the government could not enforce it (this borders on a separation of church and state discussion).

So perhaps in the Treaty you mention, they were indicating that they are not subject to any religion. No hidden code that is a higher law. No clergy that a foreign country must please.

I would recommend reading up on what life was like in England in the 1600 and 1700's, and what the real complaints were of the American Colonies. Even just watching some History Channel programs might be helpful.


[Edited on 3-4-2004 by piboy]

What part of that sentence did you not understand? This one thing disproves everything you have all been saying. This is a legally recognized treaty that states that we are not founded in the Christian faith. (Unless it has been repealed) No matter how you wish to look at it. Oversight? Perhaps, but this is the message that it says.

Originally posted by OXmanK
Ok, TC, it seems you are having a problem with the English language. It is clearly worded in a way that we can all understand it. Regardless of what you think its intentions are, it still states, clear as a bell that we are not founded, in any sense, of the Christian religion. And yes, what you are saying would contradict it.

The words are clear, but definitions of words are not clear to you.

I have covered this particular treaty in the past, and will not go over it again. My wrist is killing me due to carpal tunnel BS and tindonitus aggravations and need to be selective right now. But what it boils down to is you do not know what you do not know. No big deal. You are not by yourself. That is why the big lie and the societal breakdown is occuring.

Let's look at it another way.
Ox, what is the difference betwee how gold is used and how silver is used, in regard to trade?

[Edited on 4-4-2004 by Thomas Crowne]

Originally posted by OXmanK
Ok, TC, it seems you are having a problem with the English language. It is clearly worded in a way that we can all understand it. Regardless of what you think its intentions are, it still states, clear as a bell that we are not founded, in any sense, of the Christian religion. And yes, what you are saying would contradict it.

I don't think they were trying to say the country was not built on Christian teachings or the Christian faith. The term "Christian religion" was used to mean the Church, not Christian beliefs.

I think they were showing that the US did not derive it's legitimacy from the blessing of the Church or any other church, as was the pattern in many countries. Many governments declared themselves to be legitmate because the Church supported them. Not so with America.

And remember, they were adamant in their conviction of the separation of Church and state. It was important for them to convey to others of that fact. Nevertheless, the government was built on the principles of Chrisitianity. This is absolutely consistent with the Founder's own writings.

I'll look into this particular treaty. There must be some reason that they included this particular phrase, and there must have been some discussion about it. I'll see if I can find it.

Already have, sir.

The argument lies with an article that is not found in every copy of the Treaty that declares the U.S. Gvernemnt to not be a Christian government. This is not argued. The U.S. government is set apart from the rest of the country as the district of Columbia. It is a corporation and can enter into treaties with other nations for the purposes of trade. The Islamic folks would not have been so happy to enter into an agreement with us were it not for that. Regardless, the Treaty of 1797 became anulled due to war, and another Treaty was later signed, in 1805. This treaty did not have the wording that allegedly claimed our nation to be secular.

Understand the difference between the U.S. government and the united stated of America. (Take note of my punctuation).

Originally posted by ashley
You are correct sir,
I have read this before on several freethought sites. I have some tee-shirts with founding father quotes on them. Its funny when a christian notices them, hell its funny when a christian notices anything.
They have been lied to by their parents and clergy for so long a real quote is hard for them to understand. They are always looking around the truth trying to find an interpretation.
Lets say for fun there really was a pearly gate, could you imagine what the cost of a ticket on the bleachers would go for.Priceless.

Well hi dear,
I notice everything I notice when someone is speaking from their posterior orifice, as well. You speak from a pagan/secular standpoint - all christians have been lied to? I see. Me and you should debate sometime We'll even place a wager! I don't think I've been lied to - but I think most non-thinking sheeple in America have been. Anyone seen any of the FEMA training videos? I have. Showing a loud mouthed trainer telling the FEMA recruits that the founding fathers are terrorists - and then saying anyone who believe in Jesus Christ is a terrorist, woo! Don't believe me? I can show you the video Now why are christian being attacked so viciously? Because I think, people are afraid "uh, what if there IS a God?" Thinking for yourself is fine and dandy, but when all you can do is point fingers, mock and ridicule? Your validity goes down a drain - you may as well reenter gradeschool and start the brainwashing process all over.

As for the pearly gate comment.. I take it you were referring to..... heaven? Well, heaven has 12 pearly gates. 3 on each side of it. See, reading can be fun! Try reading some time instead of injecting self-made opinion

The founding father's were Christian, that is a fact. They used Judeo-Christian ethics as a moral compass in forming our nation's laws and ethics. And those same ethics can be found in 99% of all of the world's religions. (be good to your fellow man, do not kill or steal, etc)

They also made sure that we can worship as we wish regardless of denomination with out fear of prosecution.

That is the part we should all remember. Esp religious groups.

Originally posted by Facefirst
The founding father's were Christian, that is a fact.

They were emphatically NOT Christian, most were Deists, some Unitarians. Not only were many fleeing from the Church of England, they also knew of the grave misbehavior of the Puritans (a non-denomenational sect) in their witch hysteria in Massachusetts. Though these torturous murderers were beholden to the Presbyterian Church, their santimoniousness sought vainglorious villification based upon the testimony of little girls!

My ancestors at that time were Presbyterians, but they were from New Jersey (reputedly). However, my family geneology contains certain records of the period before our Revolution that are indicative of attempts to persecute those of other faiths or those without any. Certainly, I was initially remiss to accept the implications, however perspective of history is clear that the founding fathers wanted to eliminate religious intolerance. But in the present day, contrarian neoconservatives fabricate Christian hegemony!

Please note, on the link provided, that the quotes are from historical tomes, long predating the internet. Undoubtedly one can find contradictory quotations on web. In fact just about anything can be found on the 'net to substantiate one's beliefs. Check your references!

I personally want to believe in a god like Jesus. Unfortunately, the rantings of so-called Christians give me pause.

Many pagans were also included in the run for the new lands in America. They all wanted to come here to found a country that would be free of religious persecution from the Kristjans. I think that speaks for itself.

Now, unless I was tought completely wrong in highschool, middle school and elementary school, this is the way it happened. These days however, they are all just trying to lie to our children and change the history books. Makes me feel proud to live in Kristjan America.

The American system of checks and balances was derived from the Christian Old Testament or Jewish Talmud as some of you may have it.

Isaiah 33:22
For the Lord is our judge,
The Lord is our lawgiver,
The Lord is our King...

Judicial, Legislative, and Executive branches defined around 600BC, before Democracy was even considered by the French or any others...
Cheers,
- Tass