Millions of jobs at risk, we cannot afford it.

Support for your fellow man, not the faces of the automotive industry elite

Hear me out here. Whether you’re right or left of the political spectrum I ask folks here to reconsider their feelings over the $25 billion bail out. Yes I know recently the $25 million bail out of the auto industry has been denied on the first round but I would like to get the reality of the situation to folks here. There are millions of jobs at risk here if we allow the auto industry to sink. This isn’t just typical recessionary cycle as was back in 91' and 01', the is the worst financial crises in decades and we cannot afford to neglect the reality of the situation, we cannot afford to allow our political ideals to get in the way, we cannot afford our anger to get in the way.

If folks are worried about giving those who exploited our economy a handout, I say force the big three automotive companies to fire the CEOs and all the major figures of the companies and then we tell them what they are going to have to do once we give them this $25 billion injection. We commit them to the development of hybrid vehicles; we commit them to work in conjunction with public officials to develop more public transportation vehicles. We force them ditch any further development of oversized SUV's and sports vehicles that will do no use to help the US economy cope.

This is our chance to get the automotive industry to do things right for a while at their weakest. You develop vehicles to what the consumers want and what the economic and political conditions are, not to what the wealthy minority want, the same ones who purchase Japanese and German vehicles instead of US made

If they want a piece of the bail out package, I suggest we fire CEO's
Robert Nardelli of Chrysler, Rick Wagoner of General motors and Alan R. Mullaly of Ford. I don’t give a rats how hard it will be for them to find new replacement, these fellas should have seen the situation coming and should have adapted by focusing on hybrid/fuel efficient vehicles and a deal to develop better public transportation vehicles. Fire them if they wish their companies and those millions of jobs to get assistance



Have a look at these three, they have neglected the reality of the financial crises and helped to gtt the industry to where it is, not the millions of hard working americans who depend of these jobs from the auto industry to survive. Punish these three and the elite, not the hard working americans.

Don’t allow all those jobs to go because of a few careless individuals. Hard working Americans don’t deserve to suffer from the carelessness of the few. Fire the CEOs of the big three; force the companies to begin big shifting of staff in the marketing and advisory sectors of these businesses because they were sure as heck too stupid to adapt with the current world environment.

A leading think-tank has drawn a doomsday picture for the North American auto industry that shows that if Detroit's automakers shrink further - even fail - the U.S. economy would suffer a crushing blow, losing at least 2.46 million jobs in the first year alone.

www.financialpost.com...

I know of good HARD WORKING folk who work in the automotive industry and depend on these companies to take care of their family and keep things going in life; they DO NOT deserve to loose their jobs because of a certain few. The collapse or even decrease in size of these automotive companies will create a ripple effect that may very well drag the economy into a deep recession, even to the point of a depression. For the sake of millions of jobs, for hard working husbands, wives, sons, daughters who are just trying to live like any other American folk, I urge those here to reconsider your feeling of just letting the entire thing fall and write to your local representative or state representative or congressman to urge them to vote in favour with these conditions cited above.

hard working Americans don’t deserve to suffer because of a few, we can prevent a ripple effect and millions of jobs lost and at the same time kick out those CEOs and those who lead these auto industries into the wrong directions. We can demand conditions but at the same time show fellow Americans we are there for them and we do not intend them to loose their jobs

The consequences go further than jobs.

Governments would lose at least US$156.4-billion in taxes over the first three years.

www.financialpost.com...

And it goes deeper.

If Detroit cut output and employment by 50% to meet ever-shrinking market share, which would mean contraction by two of the automakers, 2.46 million jobs would be lost initially. Governments would lose US$108-billion in revenue over three years, according to the analysis.

This is too big for us to ignore, whether or not we feel cheated.

"My dad works there and he's been laid off for the last couple months. And it's just not looking good. My uncle just took the buyout. If they don't bail them out, they don't think they will get the buyout money," said Mike Gendicks of Louisville.

www.wave3.com...

Louisville is just one example of how much folks depend on the auto industry to survive folks. We need to get over this "socialist" "greed" crap and look beyond the faces of the CEOs... behind them lies millions of hard working Americans, middle class to working class, students and pensioners like the vast majority of ATSers here. Ill bet my bottom buck that at least 20% of ATS folks here will suffer as a result of the collapse of the auto industry.. We cannot allow it.

Let the top few of these companies suffer, get them fired, strip them of any bonuses or payment packages as a result of being fired, they don’t deserve a further cent. But please folks, consider support to aid the industry in to save those millions of jobs and tax payer money at risk as the result of the automotive failure.

Some folks say this assistance wont make a difference, I’m sick an tired of hearing excuses. If this means that we show hard working Americans in the automotive industry that we will do everything we can to support the safe keeping of those millions of jobs, I think it means a whole lot as opposed to letting things go bad because all we see are the faces of the CEOs and directors.

Support the $25 billion assistance of those millions of jobs from the bail out package,

-Fire the current CEOs as listed above, either you pony up no hand out. No excuses.

-Fire those in the automotive sectors such as the marketing and advisory sectors who chose to ignore the stupidity of the continuation in development of gas guzzler SUVs and sports vehicles. Force number one focus on hybrid vehicles and public transportation.

-Strip or at least put on hold the SUV and luxury divisions of these three companies such as Lincoln and Cadillac, in place of this focus development and finance on better suited vehicles for the current situation.

There’s not denying that greed has cheated the American economy and the American people, but we cannot allow this mess to go further. Support a bail out package with the conditions I listed above or similar. It is time we stand up and support our fellow man.

[edit on 23-11-2008 by southern_Guardian]

crap. I just heard that Obama is pushing for an economic incentive plan that would create 2.5 million jobs. I guess he must be expecting the auto industry to fail (seems kind of odd those numbers match up). I was kind of hoping the job market would loosen up a little

heres the link to an article about it:
news.yahoo.com...

I've also read that it would be in the best interests of big oil to lend/give american automakers the money they need, as our cars are notorious for being big and fuel innefficient. They would get their money back with profit, because by driving american SUV's and Hummers, we keep buying more and more oil. But why do that when we can just step on all the little taxpayers?

You sure seam to have it all figured out. OK well no you don't. Aside from politics I will say that all the auto industry is trying to do is get more money before leaving the country. The part of the situation that you aren't understanding is that they are doing well overseas. Why would we need to bail them out when they are the top auto manufactures in Russia.

Its also hard to believe they need money when in fact they have been spending money in the millions to open plants in just the last few months. R and D in India, manufacturing in Russia, Brazil, and China, this is not the sign of a company going belly up. You have been suckered if you believe what they are telling you on the news about the Big Three.

They built SUV's because we wanted them, in fact if it wasn't for the SUV market coming of age when it did, they may have had more problems then. The companies always are retooling their plants to meet demands. Please don't talk about something that is way more complex than just jobs.

We are going to loose the jobs weather we bail them out or not. The only difference is how rich the executives will be when its done. Mind you that the execs will make their payroll stay the same but still be getting paid while a companies death is long and drawn out. Don't be suckered into the belief that throwing money on the economic problems will fix them. It won't.

Listen i'm against bailing out any more companies. we bailed out the banks and they took the money and ran. And normally i wouldn't defend the CEOs of the Big 3 auto makers. But i will this time because you left something out of your OP and its really the major cause of why the big 3 are in the mess they are in.

Its because people don't have the money to buy a new car! The banks were suppose to lend out that $700 billion they got from the Government, did they do that? hell no they didn't! The big 3 are hurting right now because people aren't buying their products. it doesn't matter if they are gas guzzlers or hybrids! People aren't buying. they are watching their 401K's and all their savings vanish into thin air. another thing that is hurting the big 3 is their labor costs, and an unwilling union to help out the company that puts food on the union members table.

Giving the big 3 a $25billion bailout will not do them any good. it will buy them 3-4 months if they are lucky. Then what do you propose we do bail them out again? No one wants to say it but we are in a depression! the government has been so afraid to even mention recession until it was to late and they are trying to sugar coat the truth once again!

Yes lossing even 1 of the big 3 would kill our economy. Force them into chapter 11. at least under chapter 11 they will be allowed to operate and they will be protected from their creditors. this will give them time to come up with a plan to survive, it will also give them the time to switch over their plants to produce hybrids. while they are under chapter 11 they need to fire the CEOs, force the union to take a pay cuts. lose some of their benefits or lose their jobs. Find another way to help them out.

Throwing money at the problem will not fix the problem. and lets face it the democrat controlled congress is toothless. they won't make the banks or the big 3 do anything that the congress says they have to do!

Fire the big three CEO's. Fire those marketing and development advisors who have allowed their ignorance to continue on for years, the same ones who told everybody else to continue developing these gas guzzlers. Either do so or no bail out.

Get the big three to dump such divisions as Lincoln and Cadillac which are completely useless in the market at the moment.

Millions of jobs, not worth it. We cannot risk the jobs of hard working americans. We can save these jobs and put conditions in place to assure those responsible are fired.

reply to post by Mercenary2007


Look mercenary, I fully understand your feeling and you know I aint ganna question whether you have a legit reason, damn straight you do. But this hits hard, I know folks, hard working americans. They dont deserve to loose their jobs because of afew. Allow the bail out with the condition I said above.

We cannot allow this mess to run further. We must think of our fellow man.

Originally posted by peskyhumans
crap. I just heard that Obama is pushing for an economic incentive plan that would create 2.5 million jobs. I guess he must be expecting the auto industry to fail (seems kind of odd those numbers match up). I was kind of hoping the job market would loosen up a little

heres the link to an article about it:
news.yahoo.com...

I've also read that it would be in the best interests of big oil to lend/give american automakers the money they need, as our cars are notorious for being big and fuel innefficient. They would get their money back with profit, because by driving american SUV's and Hummers, we keep buying more and more oil. But why do that when we can just step on all the little taxpayers?

This idea of obama's IS NOT of his own design. This is the same plan conceived in the "New Deal". The problem is that all it did was make for cheap labor to build cold war and government strength by paying very little for the peoples labor.

What is scary is that the onset of WWII after the "New Deal" is what really fixed the economy. Looks like history is repeating itself again. I begin to wonder if this is due to the fact that they don't teach history in school in the true history of events. Thus causing the repetition.

[edit on 23-11-2008 by LeaderOfProgress]

You didn't mention anything about the UAW making concessions. I mean bailout and keep those great bennies. I don't think so. You don't pay people to not work. You don't overstaff an assembly line. You get lean, mean and do multiple jobs. The unions have to come to the table also.

Sorry... if we bail out these idiots... what's next? Where do you want to draw the line? Can't afford it? You're right... We can't afford to keep bailing out mismanaged businesses.

reply to post by Resinveins


We cant afford to save the jobs of fathers and mothers? Sons and daughters? the backbone of this nation??

Why cant we bail out the millions of jobs americans so depend on, not the elite of the automotive industry?? Why does it just have to be two ways? For petes sakes a quarter of us probably depend on the auto-industry and we dont even know it. Why not set conditions huh? They are at their weakest in decades, force them to focus on hybrids, fire the ELITE of the auto-industry like the CEOs. Save the millions of jobs of hard working americans. I mean for petes sakes, this goes beyond your average company collapse, this is connect to our economy. This is whats hold america up.


[edit on 23-11-2008 by southern_Guardian]

Originally posted by southern_Guardian
reply to post by Resinveins

 

We cant afford to save the jobs of fathers and mothers? Sons and daughters? the backbone of this nation??

Why cant we bail out the millions of jobs americans so depend on, not the elite of the automotive industry?? Why does it just have to be two ways? For petes sakes a quarter of us probably depend on the auto-industry and we dont even know it. Why not set conditions huh? They are at their weakest in decades, force them to focus on hybrids, fire the ELITE of the auto-industry like the CEOs. Save the millions of jobs of hard working americans. I mean for petes sakes, this goes beyond your average company collapse, this is connect to our economy. This is whats hold america up.


[edit on 23-11-2008 by southern_Guardian]

You won't be saving jobs all you will be doing is delaying the inevitable. All you will be doing is ensuring executives get their plush salary while they set up overseas. Our economy is failing and it is time you believed and understood that. America as a whole thinks it can be fixed but unless you get the greed out of the government it can't be fixed. The jobs are lost already. No sense in making rich people richer.

reply to post by southern_Guardian


look i know we can't loose these jobs but honestly just giving them money will not help. its simple economics. if you don't have enough money coming in you can't have more money going out then you bring in. then the company fails

The average line worker for the auto industry makes $34-$74 dollars an hour before benefits. GM's sales are down the last i hear 45-50%. I've did the math in another thread giving the big 3 $25 billion will not help them they each will only get $8.3 billion dollars. that is enough to last 4 months at heir current spending levels. they need to cut their labor costs period end of story!

You want the big 3 to start pumping out hybrids right? let me ask you something. They can't sell what they are producing now what makes you think if they retool for just hybrids they will sell them right now. NO ONE IS BUYING ANYTHING! After Christmas we're going to see major retailers go belly up.

People are watching their savings disappear into thin air. the average person whether they admit it or not is scared to death right now. It doesn't help with the government sugar coating the reality that is rapidly approaching.

If the autoworkers want to keep their jobs they are going to have to make concessions. they will have to give up some benefits, they are going to have to take some pay cuts. Put they big 3 in chapter 11. let them come up with a plan, then let them restructure. Fire anyone in management positions that had anything to do company direction. Make the Big oil companies Loan the automakers the money they need. since they have been raking in record profits.

I know it sucks But the taxpayers need to grow a back bone and say no to bailing anyone else out. If we don't draw the line now then where do we draw the line. when the retailers start going belly up?

If you ask me we draw the line here. we also refuse to give the banks the 2nd half of their $700 billion extortion money. and force them to pay back the 1st half!

If the government really wanted that money to do any good they should have given it to anyone that makes under $100,000 a year! the econmy might not have been completely fixed by doing that but we sure the hell would have been a lot better off!

OP,

The UAW must reduce wages and benefits to national median levels, as well as what you propose.

With the mess Franklin D. Roosevelt inherited when he took office after the depression did he whine and just let things get worse? Did he assume anything he tried to solve, he was assisting the elite? No he actually got up and did something, he tried to preserve as many jobs as he could in the face of a pending war. The man got the automakers to begin focusing of development of products that would serve america in the war.

Why cant we preserve these millions of jobs? Its funny that when you dont have your job threated, when your not suffering a lay off or months off because your company can no longer afford to pay you and all the while folks are shouting "leave them to die because of the elite", theres this neglect of the millions of folks who depend on these jobs.

As I said, investigate the figures behind the mess of the auto industry and and fire them, GET RID OF THEM and save these jobs. For petes sakes must we allow petty conspiracies to get in the way of the reality of the situaton?! I understand greed has brought this nation down, but we simply cannot ignore this mess because we feel its helping the elite.

reply to post by southern_Guardian

Its funny that when you dont have your job threated, when your not suffering a lay off or months off because your company can no longer afford to pay you and all the while folks are shouting "leave them to die because of the elite", theres this neglect of the millions of folks who depend on these jobs.

Thats funny i didn't see anyone offering me a bailout before i closed my business and layed off 7 employees.

I don't see anyone offering to bailout the trucking company i work for. I go to work everyday wondering if this is my last day working here! I know how many drivers i've laid off this year. i don't know how many more drivers will be laid off from the company i work for. I do know 1 thing. How many more drivers can get layedd off before my job as a dispatcher will need to be let go. and since i'm the lowest in senority for the dispatchers i will go first. So yes I'd say my job that i depend on right now to put food on the table for my family is very much threatened!

FDR's "New Deal" was a joke. When people realized it wasn't working they voted out the Dems in congress and replaced them with Repubs and they repelled almost all of the new deal. then WW2 broke out!

I have a feeling those autoworkers are going to have a lot of work here real soon, And it doesn't matter how much we peon taxpayers bitch and moan the big 3 will get their blood money one way or the other in december. if congress doesn't give it to them then the treasury will!

I agree wholeheartedly with LeaderofProgress and Velvet Death.

Both the automakers and the unions caused the problem. Let them restructure under chapter 11 bankruptcy, and rebuild a solvent business that will survive rough periods.

They broke it, and to set a broken bone there'll be some pain. But it will heal right.

My future paychecks can't handle any more bailouts.

Originally posted by southern_Guardian
Why cant we preserve these millions of jobs? Its funny that when you dont have your job threated, when your not suffering a lay off or months off because your company can no longer afford to pay you and all the while folks are shouting "leave them to die because of the elite", theres this neglect of the millions of folks who depend on these jobs.

WHO IS GOING TO BUY ALL THESE CARS?

The Big Three have been operating on the expectation of selling 17 million units per year. That is what their business plan is. That is why there are all those jobs.
Demand is currently estimated at maybe 11 million units per year; it will be less in 2009.

Who is going to buy all these cars Detroit will have to produce to keep everyone employed?

What you don't seem to understand is that the jobs are gone. Thousands and thousands of jobs are gone. Bailout or not, the autos are gonna have to cut everything nearly in half: payroll, plants, printer paper, everything.
Should the gov't write the autos a blank check so they can keep everyone on payroll, sitting around doing nothing? What do you expect out of this?

Guess what - I've been laid off once this year because my employer couldn't afford to pay me. They laid me and 75% of the office off so they didn't have to file for bankruptcy. Their business plan was not working in the current economy so they had to change their business plan to make it work. I was lucky; when I got laid off I was able to start another job right away. Well, now that business is failing and they're only able to keep me on part time. That's effectively two layoffs in less than a year. I'm working part time and I'm contracting for my former employer. You know what I have to say about the autos?

Don't bail 'em out. We can't afford it.

The auto industry is using its employees as "human shields" the way liberals use the poor and conservatives use children.

They intentionally build garbage products with built in obsolescence. They try to convince us that 28 mpg is great. And now they use their employees as human shields.

All bad things have to come to an end for there to be progress. The sooner these idiots perish, the sooner their employees can bring their abilities to better companies.