Originally posted by mind is the universe
So what's the difference between, popular war, and unpopular war.

And how in your opinion G.W bush been not convicted of war crimes, when Saddam was, and sentenced to death?

I think you have taken the moral equivalence to an illogical extreme. If you think anything Bush has done comes close to comparison to Saddam intentionally gassing his own people, along with all the other brutal treacherous crimes Saddam and his delinquent sons perpetrated against their own country men and women, then, you are ignorant.

I bet that you think the Iraq War is the worst atrocity in the history of humanity, and that Guantanamo bay is worse than Auschwitz. Is this what you and "DeminsionalDetective" think? Please confirm.

(bear in mind it was the CIA who gave Saddam the power to ravage his country)

Before or after Bush came into office? Your argument is to blame Bush, this question comprehensively negates that argument... tee hee

Furthermore, and while I do disagree with a lot of the actions the CIA does or "doesn't" do, the CIA used Saddam as a proxy, nothing more, nothing less.

No, just your idiotic responses are. You know you don't have to hate a person, purely on hating their behaviour.

This is called. "separating the behaviour from the person"

No, its just another way to disguise your vehement fanatical hate.

This is my second time telling you, I'm not going to say it again Westcoast, stop changing other peoples words. I did not say Bush is the blame for everything. Stop doing that, or remove yourself off this thread, as it's trolling and wasting other people's time, to try express their view, when there is people like you twisting their words

Stop it!

Lets take a gander back and see just what you said...

I don't agree with anything he has done. It was very wrong what he has done to this world.

The key word of emphasis being "anything."

As you can see, you don't leave a lot of room to the imagination with this style of writing.

That is of what he had done to this world specifically.
You see I'm pretty well surfaced on my stance on What Bush is and what he does. How he has created havok with this world. The crimes he committed.

Yet you don't mention anything of great specificity... You're clearly a biased individual with an agenda...

Bush did not create any success. Stop insulting my intellegence West Coast. The only good he did, was look after himself, his admin, his father karma and his cronies.

That is all he did.

I know this goes against everything you believe in...After all, Ignorance is bliss.

However, I need only revert back to my main talking points. Two countries are now free and prospering democracies that are experiencing certain freedoms and rights they were never accustomed to before.

Aid to Africa under Bush has quietly tripled, and increases in $billions more are expected.

The 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami, the US used US naval assets to help assist victims. This was then, and still is now, an unappreciated burden the US was/is expected to undertake.

These are all facts. But I am sure you will berate them the best you can! (errr...you will try)

So for eight years of repressive non supportive illegal wars,

What part of it was illegal?

Also, tell me this, were you supportive of the Saddam regime and all their ill-dealings? You seem to think the US was horrible for going in, but under Saddam, people were killed, tortured and mutilated for unjust causes. Why aren't you more happy that Iraq is free and becoming an ever increasing prosperous nation?

killing a million Iraqs civillans,

Bush did not, nor has the US military, killed 1,000,000 Iraqis.

Additionally, those numbers are heavily skewed beyond belief. They do not differentiate Iraqis who have died from natural causes from those who have died as a result of collateral damage.

and killing thousands of your fellow American's Is positive.

There is no positive correlation to fighting a war. People die from both sides. I would hope that we honor those fallen, on both sides (the innocent), by finishing the job and making Iraq a strong, prosperous democracy.

American relations with the world has plummeted to a record low.

Only in places such as Europe, however, in Asia, the US is looked at favorably. For instance, India has 3x the total population of Europe, and is the most pro US nation out there.

Breaking the UN and geneva convention. The list is endless,? Is this positive?

Care to elaborate?

Is war positive?

Only if the future is significantly brighter as a result.

Is Diplomacy Negative,

No, and if you remember correctly, the Bush admin used diplomacy with Saddam, but as he continuously restricted UN inspections, along with the intel several other nations had, we had to act and act immediately.

Also recall the US 'quietly' using effective diplomacy in disarming North Korea.

What is negativism, I would like you to look it up in the dictionary.

Your Bush man, lied face to the country, and lied to you, and is this not negative?

Again, if Bush were the liar you people take him for, why then did he not plant WMD's in Iraq so they could be 'discovered?' Additionally, why instead did Bush fess up that the intelligence was faulty? Need I remind you that several other nations thought Saddam had the goods, the same as the US?

Furthermore, regime change in Iraq was official US policy before Bush came into office (a man name Clinton is responsible for that).

When you make excuses for war crimes, not been war crimes, cus the Bush admin only created an "unpopular war"

Don't expect many people to understand your BS.

What war crimes? For Christ sake, you people make him out to be a war lord who deals drugs and uses babies as target practice as his favorite past time... This is one reason why no logical thinking person takes you people seriously.



[edit on 25-11-2008 by West Coast]

Originally posted by West Coast

I think you have taken the moral equivalence to an illogical extreme. If you think anything Bush has done comes close to comparison to Saddam intentionally gassing his own people, along with all the other brutal treacherous crimes Saddam and his delinquent sons perpetrated against their own country men and women, then, you are ignorant.

War is war. It's not acceptable, by Saddam or Bush or Benny puny pun.

Saddam was merely a "war puppet" to create the havok nesecessary, for the American policy agenda to reign in and eventually take full control of Iraq. Iraq been rich of oil recources and border the persian gulf a vital asset for America. If you think the American government cared so much about a "democratic peaceful Iraq", why did Bush Senior let him live after the Gulf war. Remeber George Bush's father shook hands with this man and traded weapons too!

I bet that you think the Iraq War is the worst atrocity in the history of humanity,

Grow up, It's like I'm speaking to a child right now. I don't think that. I do think the Iraq war was unacceptable. I don't think American foreign policy is striving for peace or diplomacy, by mean's of war and aggression throughout the world.

Before or after Bush came into office? Your argument is to blame Bush, this question comprehensively negates that argument... tee hee

As I said grow up and stop "using the blame" excuse. Children behave like that.

Furthermore, and while I do disagree with a lot of the actions the CIA does or "doesn't" do, the CIA used Saddam as a proxy, nothing more, nothing less.

The CIA used him, and allowed the situation to get ugly. That is and was the whole purpose of this unwarrented made up war!

No, its just another way to disguise your vehement fanatical hate.

Now your been ignorant and petty. Take a deep breath and learn to accept other people's view on their own feeling's. I've already told you stop the personal jabs, and twisting of my words. I don't hate anyone. This is now my third to ask you to stop trolling and disrespecting other people's viewpoint.

Yet you don't mention anything of great specificity... You're clearly a biased individual with an agenda.

This war was not acceptable, and these kind of action's of the last 8 years, was incompetent and making zero chance of peace. War doesnt work. It has upsetted any diplomacy the western world has built up over the years. As we now today are in a very unstable world. America is now loathed. War creates resentment and bitterness. Thanks to bad example's of your adminstration. Do tell me my agenda?

However, I need only revert back to my main talking points. Two countries are now free and prospering democracies that are experiencing certain freedoms and rights they were never accustomed to before.

Back it up please.

Aid to Africa under Bush has quietly tripled, and increases in $billions more are expected.

I'm sure Bush cares alot about Africa.
Seriously get real.

The 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami, the US used US naval assets to help assist victims. This was then, and still is now, an unappreciated burden the US was/is expected to undertake.

But the Bush administration couldn't sort out Katrina in their own country, or give a duck about the environment.

What part of it was illegal?

Invading on no proof of any weapons of mass detruction. This kind of behavior is not logical or sane.

If you want to say it's legal. Then Iran has the right to invade America legally, since America has nucs too! Sure this is right?

Also, tell me this, were you supportive of the Saddam regime and all their ill-dealings? You seem to think the US was horrible for going in, but under Saddam, people were killed, tortured and mutilated for unjust causes. Why aren't you more happy that Iraq is free and becoming an ever increasing prosperous nation?

If the CIA and previous American policies were not there, we wouldn't have this ravegery.

Iraq is not happy. Bagdad is destroyed. They didn't find any terrorist's. A million dead. Million's left bereaved. The oil industry is not in the hands of the country. The country is now under the control of the USA directly. The USA control what goes in and what goes out etc. It's history repeating itself. Where the superpower invades other lands.

Bush did not, nor has the US military, killed 1,000,000 Iraqis.

Then Saddam didn't kill his own people either The CIA funded terrorist's and all the weapons coming from your country did it But Under Bush's administration, he declared this war, against the UN. He behaved irratically and implusively. It is not acceptable to rage war like what we have seen over the last 8 years.

Additionally, those numbers are heavily skewed beyond belief. They do not differentiate Iraqis who have died from natural causes from those who have died as a result of collateral damage.

Then the Bush admin should not have went to war. So how many people do you think it become's ok to die and not ok to die?
You are so pathetic, it's unbelievable.

There is no positive correlation to fighting a war.

Only sanity I've witnessed yet from you

by finishing the job and making Iraq a strong, prosperous democracy.

By what killing more people? How will the people be strong when America has wiped a large percentage of the population, and those left to suffer. Do you call a country strong in this respect?

Only in places such as Europe, however, in Asia, the US is looked at favorably. For instance, India has 3x the total population of Europe, and is the most pro US nation out there.

You live in the US how would you really know, especially since your reality of the world is your box in your lounge.
Have you seen the protest in countries, on their anger towards America over the years. you need to back up your statment's. Have you seen the riots in South America? Have you seen the protest all over Europe and Australia. The majority of this world unfavours America sadly.

There is very few countries that support America. The majority of Asia do not support your country. Russia, Middle East, Pakistan, Iran, China etc.

BTW. get your fact's right.
Europe 500,000,000 million
India 1 billion people.

So your incorrect on India having 3x times the population of India

Only if the future is significantly brighter as a result.

Yes for America only of course. Iraq and other countries have to suffer for it. It's called greed.

No, and if you remember correctly, the Bush admin used diplomacy with Saddam, but as he continuously restricted UN inspections, along with the intel several other nations had, we had to act and act immediately.

No they didn't. Your going to have to explain what you mean by diplomacy. They threatened him, based on nothing. Infact BusH made it clear he personally wanted to take him out. It was his father's wish. That is not acceptable under political policies. UN inspections went after? why suddenly forget to mention this fact. When the UN found none, why did Bush take the hands of his own country into an uneseccary war?

Also recall the US 'quietly' using effective diplomacy in disarming North Korea.

Why don't the US quietly disarm too?

Furthermore, regime change in Iraq was official US policy before Bush came into office (a man name Clinton is responsible for that).

Because Clinton got paid to do the job. It was the USA that put Iraq into the mess it was in to begin with.

What war crimes? For Christ sake

What's your definition of a war lord.

Someone who kills 10ppl or 10m


[edit on 25-11-2008 by mind is the universe]

"Two countries are now free and prospering democracies that are experiencing certain freedoms and rights they were never accustomed to before. "

I'm not sure if this might be ironically meant,
can't be Iraq and Aghanistan.

I see Raw Story is still up too their Partisan Hack headlines. The article is not about the war, it is about the economic crisis. Sore winners are even more pathetic than sore losers.

The economic crisis was caused by crooked banks combined with dumb consumers and consumers lying on loan applications. It was worsened by out of control consumers running their credit cards up to the max and living way over their heads. The Governments failure was in not stopping it through regulation and oversight. That is primarily the job of Congress. Only Congress can legislate regulation. Basic Civics everyone should have learned in High School or before.

Interesting how the illiterate get these things all screwed up in their minds. Of course their lying leaders don't help as they take advantage of their lack of literacy to control them. The press sure takes advantage of this illiteracy as well.

The solution to this economic mess will require consumers to admit to themselves they are partly to blame, cleaning up the banking industry and a Congress willing to regulate their big time contributers properly. Those yelling the loudest, who have had complete control of Congress for the last two years, should have been tossed out on their ears, but the voters are just plain to stupid or can't be bothered to know anything about the people they vote for.

The President can't fix these problems. The Executive Branch does not have that power. Congress can and should. Too bad the same people who dropped the ball before are still there. They won't fix it. They don't want to fix it or they would have started doing it two years ago. God people are naive.

Gee, look who is talking . . .

During the 1980s, Peru faced a considerable external debt, ever-growing inflation, a surge in drug trafficking, and massive political violence. Under the presidency of Alberto Fujimori (1990–2000), the country started to recover; however, accusations of authoritarianism, corruption, and human rights violations forced his resignation after the controversial 2000 elections. Since the end of the Fujimori regime, Peru has tried to fight corruption while sustaining economic growth.

The Peruvian A-holes are perfectly capable of screwing things up for themselves, as their recent record shows.

Oh, the CIA did it.
Alright, I heard enough.

I guess no one wants to continue the discussion. Kind of sad actually. No response from OP anymore? As I said, the attacks will begin on the president elect before long.

TINSTACT

Originally posted by TINSTACT
I guess no one wants to continue the discussion. Kind of sad actually. No response from OP anymore? As I said, the attacks will begin on the president elect before long.

TINSTACT

Let us hope not....as I recall his vice p is a staunch advocate of gun control and personally...I dont know much about the man but that in and of itself smacks of a change in particular freedoms we as citizens enjoy....its already happening in the way of the prop 8 amendment....guns aren't far off the grid if you take a close look....

The subject of pro or con on gun control is really more or less moot given the relevant subject at hand but consider this those who dont particularly blame bush for the "worldwide" crisis we are discussing; Bush and his friends have had notorious strangleholds on the lower rung of the population of America, to the point that its talked about jokingly (i.e. bush and his oil buddies are making killings on gas prices and such....) I would doubt that such an IDIOT would get in office for TWO terms without help, not to mention the fact that the BIN LADEN family has so much money invested in AMERICA that to withdraw their investments would cripple our economy...even in fair weather (so to speak) and as it happens who do the Bin Laden family happen to be chums with? Everyones favorite DADDY apparently....The daddy who got jr. in office and kept him there if you ask me. The daddy that likely insulated him from the blowback of all his numerous blunders while in office that were to say sloppy at best and purposely blatant at worst. This in my own mind while not obviously directly his fault is still a mechanism put in place and left alone to tick until it blew purposely....Read up on how AIG was the FIRST to ask for a loan from the government and then not like a month later they bought out Washington Mutual? Take a close look at the players....cuz while it isnt JUST bush, hes the man ok'ing the rest of the players to do as they wish,ultimately even by default you get to the point where the buck stops with him and making any excuses for his decisions and what happens on his watch is still just making excuses.

Then Saddam didn't kill his own people either

Wow! We have just lost all cabin pressure... (at least you are upfront with being totally ignorant.)

The CIA funded terrorist's and all the weapons coming from your country did it.

Alright Sherlock, could you tell me what the Iraqi Air force consisted of? How about the Armored tanks, etc.? See, if you would have done your research, you would have known that Iraqs military under Saddam favored Soviet era Weaponry. T-72 tanks are not American. Ak47's are not American. Mig 29's are not American... Do you understand where I'm getting at?

Then the Bush admin should not have went to war. So how many people do you think it become's ok to die and not ok to die?
You are so pathetic, it's unbelievable.

The logic you are using is totally flawed.

And again, 1,000,000 Iraqis did not die as a result of the war.

By what killing more people? How will the people be strong when America has wiped a large percentage of the population, and those left to suffer. Do you call a country strong in this respect?

On the contrary.

America has not wiped out a large percentage of the Iraqi population.

Iraq's GDP is strong.

Iraqis are experiencing individual rights and freedoms they were not afforded under Saddam.

The Iraqi people have taken back their country.

You live in the US how would you really know, especially since your reality of the world is your box in your lounge.
Have you seen the protest in countries, on their anger towards America over the years. you need to back up your statment's. Have you seen the riots in South America? Have you seen the protest all over Europe and Australia. The majority of this world unfavours America sadly.

America is the most hated, yet the most envied and loved nation on the planet. Again, you are a perfect example of someone who tends to focus on failure, to emphasize only bad news while ignoring good contradictory views that are opposite to your biased opinion.

You're right, everyone else is wrong, isn't that how it goes with you? You come of as a delusional and very self centered individual.

BTW. get your fact's right.
Europe 500,000,000 million
India 1 billion people.

India = 1,129,866,154

EU 27 = 490,426,060

So roughly 2.5x the population of the EU. Tee hee

So your incorrect on India having 3x times the population of India

Enjoy this brief, rare moment in which you were "right."

Why don't the US quietly disarm too?

That is fine with me, so long as everyone else plays by the same set of rules. However, that is highly unlikely to happen.

Nuclear proliferation is dangerous. The more nations who have access to these weapons, the more dangerous this world becomes for all its inhabitants.

What's your definition of a war lord.

Someone who kills 10ppl or 10m

Oh my god, you are even debating my sarcasm? You have lost all touch with reality... Good luck with that.

[edit on 13-12-2008 by West Coast]

not to be rude....but um can we try to do less of the massive quote rebuttals? it just kinda seems less worthwhile to contribute when theres a whole half a paged dedicated to the arguments more or less in semantics and straying farther off topic with each new one (massive quote post). thanks folks

yes i agree. What alot of people fail to understand about the presidency is that we as americans have failed. We failed because they tried to pass the Pariot Act for years and we allowed Fear into our lives, and through that fear we all ways need to find someone guilty without cause or a guilty verdicit. We just put people away for years and years and sometimes they weren't even in the same state.

So Blaming Bush for the worlds problems.. Not likely. To really see the problem is the world society, the entire world allows countries to become dominators out of fear.

Fear is the mind killer. There is plenty of history of liberated peoples through the practice of peacful demostrations lead by entire countries. If we don't stop today and lead a world wide peacful demonstration for one day we have no hope for surviving a world catrophe.

May the grace of universal understanding be upon you all. its not long now, love it while you can.

be good

Riots the world over - Russia, Turkey, Iran, Greece, Italy, Thailand, Denmark, Iceland and who knows where else. Does anyone else get the feeling that the collective unconscious has just woken up en-masse?

George Bush was just a puppet on a string - like most so-called leaders. He should be tried in a court of justice (I wouldn't trust a court of law), along with many others, to elicit who the true manipulators are.

Those found guilty of evil against humanity should then be sent to a more appropriate planet to continue their evolution so that the rest of us can get on with ours. I'm sure some of those benevolent ETs would be only too pleased to assist.

Mind you, I will miss seeing Bush speaking on the TV - he always makes me laugh

Originally posted by Averysmallfoxx
not to be rude....but um can we try to do less of the massive quote rebuttals? it just kinda seems less worthwhile to contribute when theres a whole half a paged dedicated to the arguments more or less in semantics and straying farther off topic with each new one (massive quote post). thanks folks

I find it odd you would say this when this thread is pretty much dead. Is it that you do not like what I have to say?

If you have something worthwhile to say, say it. Other wise keep your Bullsh#t to yourself.

Thanks.